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Changing all 2-A profiles for TES to Unknown? (Discussion)

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Shazam121

Shazam121

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My reasoning behind this is very simple. Currently all the 2-A characters are scaled from Akatosh; now Akatosh has the 2-A rating for the following reason according to his profile:

"Can split the timeline of Mundus into alternate timelines and merge them all back together; as the embodiment of Time, as well as Time being present throughout Oblivion, his power extends all throughout the realms of Oblivion, which are infinite in number and embody infinite possibilities."

The part about splitting timelines concerns the subject of Dragonbreaks, events during which linear time (on Nirn) is broken and multiple realities take place simultaneously before converging back into a single timeline. But nothing about Dragonbreaks would imply a 2-A rating for Akatosh, for one it is not clear how much conscious control Akatosh has over them and secondly, infinite timelines are never mentioned (as far as I know).

The second part of Akatosh's justification for his 2-A tier basically boils down to the idea that Akatosh has control or influence over the entirety of Oblivion. However, this is never actually stated anywhere by the games, only ever vaguely implied. The sources on the topic also contradict each other, some claim that 'Time' is present in Oblivion whilst others, such as Fa-Nuit-Hen, outright state that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Due to this contradictory facet of the lore, I feel the current rating does not have enough tangible evidence behind it. It largely comes across as us trying to connect the dots in a series where the lore is often messy and inconsistent.

Unless someone can definitively prove that Akatosh deserves a 2-A rating I would suggest it be changed to Unknow, along with all profiles scaled from him. The reason for the Unknow rating being that I think the god tiers could potentially range from tier 5 to 2-A. I don't think 2-A is impossible, it just doesn't have sufficient evidence behind it yet. TES is just too erratic to easily rank it on wikis like this one. And really, who would play the games and come away thinking the Devs intend the gods to be multiversal+.

The only stats I'm suggesting changing are overall tier, attack potency, striking strength and durability.

I plan to take this slowly as it is quite a drastic change. So just a discussion for now.
 
"infinite timelines are never mentioned (as far as I know)"

The links on Akatosh's page literally mention infinite worlds.
 
The Everlasting said:
"infinite timelines are never mentioned (as far as I know)"
The links on Akatosh's page literally mention infinite worlds.
Click to expand...
That's talking about Oblivion.
 
There are still infinite universes.

Not saying it affects tiering, but "infinite timelines are never mentioned" is outright wrong.
 
When I said this:

"infinite timelines are never mentioned"

I was talking about Dragonbreaks, which are only present in Mundus. So I was referencing alternate timelines for the mortal realm.

Of course, Oblivion has an infinite number of realms, but that's a different topic. Though it's not super clear if these realms are different universes.
 
Glances at tier 5

Can't say i'm surprised after that Zeno comment you made. I expect more from a guy who spends his time on the tes reddit.

The problem with that is this artifact is High 3-A currently and obviously Divines/Princes >

There's also the issue on how The Tribunal would scale to this,

BUT i don't mind the unknown rating. I think.... Idk
 
I just noted the current range they have. I don't seriously think they cap out at 5, that would be the baseline.

Oh, and the Tribunal shouldn't scale to this.
 
I don't know that much about Vivec, but he should probably lose that rating. If for no other reason than the fact that there is no source linked on his profile for the low 2-C rating.
 
Well, do you know why Vivec has a low 2-C rating?

I think Sithis and Anui-EL are fine. They almost definitely affect and transcend the Aurbis, which I'm pretty certain is an infinite multiverse.
 
You know about Sotha Sil, but not Vivec?

Well despite all the crazy stuff he did, what's shown on his profile, and being powered by the heart of Lorkhan, no.

For the Divines/Princes maybe something like this Unknow, at most 2-A? Still unsure about all of this.
 
It's cus I like Sotha Sil, but I don't have much interest in Vivec. And most of what I know about Sil comes from ESO, I never played Morrowind for more than 10 minutes.
 
I like Sotha, too. The Tribunal are at full strength in ESO. (Who are very powerful at this time btw) They're weakend in Morrowind.
 
Honestly, I've always questioned how weakened the Tribunal had become by 3E427, but for Amalexia to even pose some kind of threat to the Nerevarine, her power in particular shouldn't have dropped that much. I mean, he could have simply defeated her easily, but the context is iffy at best.
 
If the Nerevarine can fight and hold his own against Dagoth Ur who was empowered by the HoL since 2E882, I see little reason to belief that the Tribunal became that much weaker, or that he couldn't defeat them with ease. Heck, Dagoth Ur ambushed the Tribunal in that age and defeated them, cutting them off from the heart all the while he grow more powerful as the centuries passed. It's more than likely his power eclipsed the Tribunal at their peak by the events of Morrowind.
 
I didn't deny that, but take into consideration what I just said. Yes, Vivec in particular has been focusing his energy on maintaining the Ghostfence and preventing Baar Dau from crashing into Vivec city, and as such he cannot levitate outside his palace given how he has not performed the divine ritual in some time.
 
That is clearly not the case. He was certainly being harmed by the Nerevarine, but he couldn't be permanently killed without destroying his link to the heart. The Nerevarine had first banished him outside the chamber to the heart, and then he battled and held his own against Dagoth Ur until he reached the heart, and utilized Kagrenac's tools to sever the connection.
 
The Nerevarine did not banish Dagoth. He teleported to the heart chamber. Dagoth was practically invulnerable and couldn't be harmed, so Nerevarine ran to the heart and destroyed it.
 
There is no indication that he simply teleported. You clearly kill Dagoth Ur outside the heart chamber. He literally follows with a statement indicating that you cannot kill a god. Dagoth Ur can still be injured and harmed, but he simply cannot be permanently killed by the Nerevarine. The Nerevarine would have had to hold his own against Dagoth Ur and compete with him in order to reach the heart.
 
I know, I finished the game again last month. The context of the game isn't very clear cut however. You clearly kill Dagoth Ur outside the heart chamber. His body practically dissipates, and is resurrected in the heart chamber. The Nerevarine would have to had held his own against Dagoth to not be instantly vaporized. When he finally reached the heart, and severed the connection he was able to permanently kill him. Yes, Dagoth Ur cannot be permanently killed. During the first few campaigns against Dagoth Ur and the Ash-vampires in the second era, the Tribunal would travel to red mountain and battle Dagoth Ur. They would inevitably kill him, but he was always resurrected by the heart.
 
To further vindicate, the two phases clearly contradict each other. You are able to harm and Kill Dagoth outside the chamber, while the damage you deal to him within the chamber isn't nearly as much. The lore implications would be much more clear cut in that the Nerevarine knew he couldn't permanently kill Dagoth Ur, and after witnessing his resurrection knew to make the heart his main priority, all while battling Dagoth Ur in order to reach the HoL. Heck, his death animation when you first defeat him is exactly the same as when you permanently kill him after severing the heart.
 
Hmm, I certainly agree in that TES is a rather difficult verse to properly rank on a statistics wiki. In regards to the points you have made Shazam, I also would like to know where it was stated that there are infinite timelines contained within Mundus. Time began with Akatosh's birth, but I'm not certain if time affects any realms outside of Mundus such as Aetherius or Oblivion. I'm hesitant to utilize any source that wasn't derived from any of the games. Unless Bethesda officially acknowledges the source, I don't accept it as having any canonical implications.
 
Given the contradictory nature of the lore, perhaps it would be best to change all 2-A TES profiles to unknown until more accurate statistics can be found.
 
We should also remove Vivec's 2-C rating, unless someone knows why he has it. His Unknown with CHIM rating seems sufficient on its own. And probably Alduin's 2-C (and 2-A naturally) rating while we are at it, as we don't know much about Kalpas or how Alduin resets them.

Also, I think the 2-A profiles can keep their speed and possibly lifting ratings. They are said to be unbound by time frequently and I think lifting strength is irrelevant to them.

Gonna be heading to sleep soon, so perhaps leave this for later so I can help too.
 
I'll remove the CHIM stuff.

I'll also leave a note on each page stating " The Princes are believed to be somewhere in Tier 2, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly where. " or something along those lines.
 
Since Sheoth agrees with this, I suppose that some revisions might be in order.
 
TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
If this is about scaling regarding Aka-tosh, keep in mind that Aka-tosh and Auri-El are the same person, and Auri-El is the soul of Anui-El, who is the soul of Anu.
Click to expand...
That's hardly quantifiable. Everything can be called the soul of Anui-EL, that's his role.

I'm ready to start on the edits. I think we should start with the characters that don't properly fit into any one faction. So these ones:

Barbas

Umbra

Alduin

Vivec

Mannimarco

Numidium

Talos

Lorkhan

Magnus

Champion of Cyrodiil

After I've done these I'll move on to the Daedric Princes and the Divines.

And as GreenForest suggested I'll leave a note on each profile saying: This character is thought to be somewhere in tier 2, but due to the inconsistent nature of the lore it is hard to pin down. Or something to that effect.
 
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