The Extent of Verse Equalization

Promestein · Oct 27, 2017

This is a topic we need to have and that I've been thinking of on and off for some time.

Basically, how far does verse equalization go? What're the specifics?

Bleach characters are normally invisible (and debatably intangible) to those without Reiatsu and can do Reiatsu crush stuff, but verse equalization gets rid of that entirely, so they can be seen even by people with no spiritual awareness. There's the recent hot topic of whether or not Servants can be harmed by conventional weapons regardless of strength, as their Mystery renders them immune to conventional weapons in-verse. There's also stuff about HxH and Nen Baptism or whatever. I don't know HxH.

Generally, equalizing things and erasing whatever effects like this seems dumb to me, honestly, but it's good to see opinions.

My thoughts:

We shouldn't equalize things like ki and magic, since those things are generally separate systems when they both appear in the same work. Only in some cases is ki equivalent to magic (such as in the Nasuverse, when it's just another word for personal magical energy), and in those cases it should be equalized, but otherwise? No.

Bleach characters should remain invisible to those without an equivalent to Reiatsu or those who can't see spiritual beings.
Servants should remain immune to conventional means of attack unless that means of attack can harm spiritual beings for whatever reason.
Stands can be harmed by other spiritual beings and things that can harm spiritual beings and seen by those who can see spiritual beings.

But, we need official rulings on this stuff, most likely. What does everyone think?

Schnee_One · Oct 27, 2017

Everything except the first should be Equalized, Ki into Magic or Magic into technology doesn't work.

Phoenix821 · Oct 27, 2017

How about star seeds from Sailor Moon would other verses have them?

The_Everlasting · Oct 27, 2017

The thing is, some of these things aren't verse equalization. They're just disabling certain things for the convenience of a match.

Creaturemaster971 · Oct 27, 2017

I definitely agree on keeping a distinction between ki and magic, and to an extent on the Servants issue. (Though what happens if you nuke a Servant?), but I think that the Bleach and Stand statutes should stay, mostly because not doing so severely limits the amount of potential matchups.

Newendigo · Oct 27, 2017

It might be dumb to you, but I think is fair to me to at least get rid of some of this inmuneties, the word it self simply lead to high amount of NLF.

I think that we should simply equalized anything that would make certain characters untouchable for other characters that are in the same Tier (Of course, not counting hax and the like...).

Matthew_Schroeder · Oct 27, 2017

The Everlasting said:
The thing is, some of these things aren't verse equalization. They're just disabling certain things for the convenience of a match.

This.

Other than that, I completely agree with Promestein. If you equalize Verses to the point where you are stripping away characters of what make them themselves, and removing the core mechanics of their series, than you are effectively not making a match with them.

TheJ-ManRequiem · Oct 27, 2017

>stands can be harmed by ither spiritual beings.

They actually can't (well NLF, but ya get me), ghosts can't see nor touch stands. Hence why I never use stand intangibility in any debate. I assume they can to be fair.

C2_of_Omegon · Oct 27, 2017

I think that this is a good proposal but things need to kept case by case. We should never have to disable an inherent property of a verse just to have a match.

Yes, that will reduce the sheer number of matches possible but that's better than getting threads that devolve into if something should equalized or not.

KarmodF · Oct 27, 2017

The problem here is that the points you just made are like the 1% of the problem, there are many verses with some weird parameters, tought all points seems reasonable (Mostly the first one). We should also state that in a verse like Jojo the stands are "Spiritual" or "Intangible" (Mostly Spiritual, but not completely) this would fit in the "Power of the Verse" categorie.

Promestein · Oct 27, 2017

Everyone refers to it as verse equalization so it's being covered here.

@JMan That just complicates things.

Monarch_Laciel · Oct 27, 2017

Ki and Magic can be equalised some times I feel.

Magic/Ki to tech though does not

Honestly, I've had this thought for ages. The Roseii for example for Senshikan all have non-corporeality listed because they are dreams, but that seems like exactly the sort of thing that would be equalised.

For the bit on servants, it should be if the attack is magical in nature, not just if it can attack spiritual beings.

Other than that, I agree with you.

DMUA · Oct 27, 2017

I think these things should be settled in-thread, really.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Oct 27, 2017

For the bleach part, im pretty sure it's been well established many times that bleach characters arent normally intangible unless actually having the power.

Ichigo before awakening his power was able to kick Rukia and Chad hit a hollow with a telephone pole for instance.

Promestein · Oct 27, 2017

Ichigo and Chad were both spiritually aware and Ichigo was able to affect spiritual beings before that.

Monarch_Laciel · Oct 27, 2017

@DMUA, the recent Featured Match is a perfect example of what happens when we try to settle these things in thread

Promestein · Oct 27, 2017

Of course, the specifics vary from thread to thread but we need general rules about what can and can't be equalized because this affects a lot of verses.

TheJ-ManRequiem · Oct 27, 2017

Does it complicate things? Yeah it does, but when its pointed out not even ghosts can and other spirit stuff, then proven true by Sugimoto, a ghost, being unable to see nor touch stands, it's a fact in verse.

Hence why equalization, even if it gimps a verse should be allowed.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Oct 27, 2017

Evidence of that? Because I don't ever remember Ichigo ever doing that before becoming a soul reaper, other than touching Rukia.

And Chad wasn't spirtually aware at that time. Chad couldnt see or hear hollows and needed Rukia to guide him in hitting them, yet he was still able to touch them.

Newendigo · Oct 27, 2017

Either the equalization can be specified by the OP of the match...

DMUA · Oct 27, 2017

Monarch Laciel said:
@DMUA, the recent Featured Match is a perfect example of what happens when we try to settle these things in thread

I should've phrased that better.

Have the OP decide the rules of Verse Equalization.

Newendigo · Oct 27, 2017

^What I said.

C2_of_Omegon · Oct 27, 2017

I believe that it's all really depends on the mechainics of the verse.

For example: Fate's thing of Servants can't be harmed by means that lack magic/spiritual energy.

So, Wolverine really doesn't have a chance to harm a Servant as his abilities are a product of science and lack any mystical power.

However, Ghost Rider can actually fight them because he is a being of magical origin and power.

Really, I think people making threads just have to do their research and look not only at characters but the verses.

Newendigo · Oct 27, 2017

Wolverine is capable to damage SS level characters...

DMUA · Oct 27, 2017

I thought he only had SS durability due to his Adamantium Bones.

Matthew_Schroeder · Oct 27, 2017

Who aren't spiritual beings.

Newendigo · Oct 27, 2017

So basically, if I throw a 5B punch agaisnt this guy, it would just simply get nulled because I don't have magic?

Yeah, no.

Monarch_Laciel · Oct 27, 2017

If you throw a 5-B punch?

Yeah, yes

Matthew_Schroeder · Oct 27, 2017

I mean, yeah, case by case on these things.

Sometimes we can get into the proof by examples fallacy.

Case in point, see this video where it is explained:

https://youtu.be/OEAPEiuW97g?t=702

^ Verses should be equalized primarily to avoid this, imo.

The_real_cal_howard · Oct 27, 2017

Unpopular opinion, but some of these kinda destroy things that have been in place for years, being foundations of versus debating. Like, prime OBD level stuff.

Newendigo · Oct 27, 2017

@C2 + The fact that Logan would not be able to cut through most Servants skin still iffy to me...

The_real_cal_howard · Oct 27, 2017

@Matt. Thing is, would fall under the exact same case as the servants. If anything, Ganon would be less suspicious, given he dwarfs many of them in tiering. And even being our resident Zelda ~~wanker~~ expert, I'd feel really bad about my morality if I allowed that.

C2_of_Omegon · Oct 27, 2017

Newendigo said:
@C2 + The fact that Logan would not be able to cut through most Servants skin still iffy to me...

Servants aren't a regular physical lifeforms and have distinct rules.

Trust me, I get where you're coming from. I would look at it like this: it's more of a matter of hax vs AP than anything else.

Hax laughs in the face of AP, more often than not.

Homu_Sweet_Homu · Oct 27, 2017

Can I voice out my opinion?

1. I don't agree with this. If we didn't equalized the source of power (Reiatsu, ki, chakra, magic, Haki, etc), the it would be next to impossible to do a vs thread including a verse like Naruto and One Piece. Example: Yhwach vs Kaguya, people would argue Kaguya stomps since Yhwach doesn't have six paths chakra which is a requirement in order to harm Kaguya. Another example: Zeref vs Akainu: people would argue Zeref cannot do anything to bypass Logia intangibility since he doesn't have Haki.

2. I also don't agree with this. There are some characters that doesn't have basic energy like chakra, magic or Reiatsu, basically a normal human without some power. Saitama for example. It would be unfair if he, and some other characters out there who basically only has superhuman strenght, cannot see Bleach character if they were ever paired up with Bleach cast.

3. Same as the second, there are some weapons that has the AP dwarfed some servants durability. It would be absurd is for an example, a plannet busting gun cannot killed a servant with city level dura just because it's a conventional weapon. I think it depends on the weapons AP.

4. About this, I'm leaning to agree. Stands are different matter. It's more like a puppet to any stands users. It's possible to kill a stands user without needing to harm the stands. Although, it would be fair to let it visible for the opponent to make it more even.

Again, I just voiced out my opinion, it's up to the staff members to decide.

KarmodF · Oct 27, 2017

Homu Sweet Homu said:
9-B of text.

All of that could esaily be stated and restricted by OP, He refers (As far as I understood) to equalize something like a character having a powersource similar to Ki and saying that is Ki.

ThunderClap448 · Oct 27, 2017

I think that equalizing magic to whatever other fancy name a series can invent is a good call. Otherwise characters that are really powerful because of their anti-magic stuff turn into shit tier outside their verse and that's inconsistent.

And it really is as I said - chakra, ki, nen, whatever - just a fancier name for magic. It IS magic.

TheJ-ManRequiem · Oct 27, 2017

Chakra, ki and nen are all fancy names for chi, not magic.

Antvasima · Oct 27, 2017

I think that Promestein makes some good points, but wouldn't this turn it nearly impossible to even have functional versus matches for quite a lot of popular verses? Verse equalisation seems like a necessary inconvenience in this respect.

Promestein · Oct 27, 2017

Specific rules can be mentioned / applied, though there should be a limit to it.

We should probably make a staff discussion thread for this, so we can discuss it under more contained circumstances. I'm gonna be gone starting tomorrow, though.

Antvasima · Oct 27, 2017

Okay. I hope that nothing bad has happened.

The Extent of Verse Equalization

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