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It's kinda pointless to impose these revisions, when people can just remove them for vs thread purposes. Unless it applies to all aspects.
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The Extent of Verse Equalization
- Thread starter Promestein
- Start date
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- versus thread rules
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Kinda sorta with Cal on this one.
I am of the opinion that whatever changes on this may unleash a storm of NLF situations in future VS Threads beyond any we ever had before.
Flashbacks to immunity abuse with certain verses, just to list a single example.
But I suppose I'll go along with what's decided here. Generally neutral.
I am of the opinion that whatever changes on this may unleash a storm of NLF situations in future VS Threads beyond any we ever had before.
But I suppose I'll go along with what's decided here. Generally neutral.
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- Thread starter
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Everything's fine. My vacation starts on the 28th, and I'm taking most of the 27th to prepare.Antvasima said:
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Well, the second matchup thread got nullified due to downgrades while the third because of verse equalization stuff. Does Lady Luck love me or what?
Having that said, I am strongly against what Prom is suggesting here. These suggestion will be grounds for huge shitstorms in the versus threads and will severely impact not only the quality of the debate but also the variety in matchups.
Seriously if I wanted people to argue "Reiatsu crush gg" or "Genjutsu doesn't work on other characters because they don't have Chakra", I'd rather go debate on the YouTube comment section.
Having that said, I am strongly against what Prom is suggesting here. These suggestion will be grounds for huge shitstorms in the versus threads and will severely impact not only the quality of the debate but also the variety in matchups.
Seriously if I wanted people to argue "Reiatsu crush gg" or "Genjutsu doesn't work on other characters because they don't have Chakra", I'd rather go debate on the YouTube comment section.
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I agree with Cal and Fate on this
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Something like a Bleach character's invisibility towards spiritually unaware people can safely ignored because over 99% of the fights are between characters that are visible to each other. It usually makes no impact whatsoever on fights.
And in many other series there is no telling whether a character is spiritually aware or not.
And in many other series there is no telling whether a character is spiritually aware or not.
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I think that when a power works based on the principle "unless you have this power you can't do anything" (which is a NLF when applied to all of fiction) it should be equalized.
Like, say that Astolfo is fighting a 3-A character whose only power is Superhuman Physical Charateristics, has no Mistery whatsowever etc. Would it make sense to say "He just tanks the attacks with no trouble because they aren't magical"?
I'm not against saying "This 9-B servant can take a non-magical Galaxy level punch" if it has a legit feat for it. If it does have it, it can be considered a defensive hax or something. But if it doesn't have said feat, and we are only saying that it's immune because the weapon is a conventional weapon, it's a NLF
Like, say that Astolfo is fighting a 3-A character whose only power is Superhuman Physical Charateristics, has no Mistery whatsowever etc. Would it make sense to say "He just tanks the attacks with no trouble because they aren't magical"?
I'm not against saying "This 9-B servant can take a non-magical Galaxy level punch" if it has a legit feat for it. If it does have it, it can be considered a defensive hax or something. But if it doesn't have said feat, and we are only saying that it's immune because the weapon is a conventional weapon, it's a NLF
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Because Ichigo is a Quincy. Chad is a fullbringer and they can manipulate souls to an extent. It was explained that everything in the Bleach verse has a soul.
This was before they had powers. Heck Chad wasnt even spiritually aware at this and had no powers. The Hogyoku didnt create them yet.
And its fairly clear that soul reapers and hollows do not have true intangibility really.
This was before they had powers. Heck Chad wasnt even spiritually aware at this and had no powers. The Hogyoku didnt create them yet.
And its fairly clear that soul reapers and hollows do not have true intangibility really.
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What do you mean before they had powers? Ichigo is a quincy. The fact that he could see spirits attest to it even when he didn't have his shinigami powers yet.
Fullbringers get their powers from their mother surving being attacked by hollows then giving birth to them. Chad already had them he just hasn't realize them yet as they differ from users to users (seeing as how he become spiritually aware in no time).
I don't even know why you are bringing up the Hog when it is unrelated.
Fullbringers get their powers from their mother surving being attacked by hollows then giving birth to them. Chad already had them he just hasn't realize them yet as they differ from users to users (seeing as how he become spiritually aware in no time).
I don't even know why you are bringing up the Hog when it is unrelated.
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@KuuIchigo
Well for the hog, I brought it up because it was confirmed in the Aizen arc that the Hyogoku was responsibile for making both Orihime's and Chads powers (part of the reason why Aizen currently has reality warping via the Hog).
And I don't see what you mean by "he became spiritually aware in no time". He didn't instantly just began to see hollows he needed to develop them. It's why Rukia needed to guide him around when he fought that one hollow because he couldn't even see or hear it. And chad definitely didnt have his fullbringer powers at that time.
As for Ichigo, I know he has always been able to see spirits but that doesn't mean he should be able to affect them without actually awakening his shinigami powers.
Well for the hog, I brought it up because it was confirmed in the Aizen arc that the Hyogoku was responsibile for making both Orihime's and Chads powers (part of the reason why Aizen currently has reality warping via the Hog).
And I don't see what you mean by "he became spiritually aware in no time". He didn't instantly just began to see hollows he needed to develop them. It's why Rukia needed to guide him around when he fought that one hollow because he couldn't even see or hear it. And chad definitely didnt have his fullbringer powers at that time.
As for Ichigo, I know he has always been able to see spirits but that doesn't mean he should be able to affect them without actually awakening his shinigami powers.
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That wasn't confirmed. Aizen was most likely boasting. Either that or it was retconned in the Fullbring arc.
What don't you get that they have it when they get born? He has it he just hasn't realized it.
Do you know what a quincy is? His shinigami powers is irrelevant to him being able to affect spiritual beings.
What don't you get that they have it when they get born? He has it he just hasn't realized it.
Do you know what a quincy is? His shinigami powers is irrelevant to him being able to affect spiritual beings.
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I can give you the thread where this happened if you want because the scans of him saying that are there. And given he still had the Hyogoku in his possession I'm fairly certain he wasn't lying. Iirc, the Hyogoku itself confirmed that toto him.
Even then, he still didnt actually activate them? Because then he wouldnt need Rukia to help him fight Hollows off from the start. And how would you explain a telephone pole being able to touch them?
Yes I do. It still shouldnt mean he would be able to effect spirits from the absolute start. But either way, its shown consisitently that hollows and shinigami arent really intangible or being along the lines of being ghosts.
Edit: Real Ghosts
Even then, he still didnt actually activate them? Because then he wouldnt need Rukia to help him fight Hollows off from the start. And how would you explain a telephone pole being able to touch them?
Yes I do. It still shouldnt mean he would be able to effect spirits from the absolute start. But either way, its shown consisitently that hollows and shinigami arent really intangible or being along the lines of being ghosts.
Edit: Real Ghosts
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I have no idea how and why this thread turned into a Bleach Discussion Thread.
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Cause derailment
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The Fullbring Arc completely debunks that. It explains Chad's powers. So yeah, a retcon.
I keep repeating this so last time. Fullbringers are born with their powers they just realize it at different ages. Because Fullbringers can, to an extent, manipulate souls. Everything in the Bleach verse has a soul, even a telephone pole. So he can affect the hollow using the souls power.
Now you are in denial. A quincy is a spritually awared human who can affect spiritual beings. Why wouldn't he be able to affect them in the beginning? Is there some sort of protocol he has to go through in order to?
In any case, we are being off-topic. I'm going to stop here.
I keep repeating this so last time. Fullbringers are born with their powers they just realize it at different ages. Because Fullbringers can, to an extent, manipulate souls. Everything in the Bleach verse has a soul, even a telephone pole. So he can affect the hollow using the souls power.
Now you are in denial. A quincy is a spritually awared human who can affect spiritual beings. Why wouldn't he be able to affect them in the beginning? Is there some sort of protocol he has to go through in order to?
In any case, we are being off-topic. I'm going to stop here.
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Well then we'll need a CRT for that instead of talking about it here.
And evidence that Chad was specifically doing that or able to do that then? Fullbringers can't suddenly manipulate the souls of objects without being aware of it. Chad hardly even awakened his spiritual power period at that point so there's no way he'd be skilled enough to use the souls of other objects without proper training or practice with it.
Because a mere child who can see spirits isn't exactly skilled enough to use his power to that extent? Ichigo didn't even know he had Quincy powers at that time. It's not about being in denial but the matter of somebody not being skilled or developed enough to do that, unless we're counting hitting Rukia as an example.
But you are right. We shouldnt discuss this here. And I apologize if I sound or have sounded sort of rude.
And evidence that Chad was specifically doing that or able to do that then? Fullbringers can't suddenly manipulate the souls of objects without being aware of it. Chad hardly even awakened his spiritual power period at that point so there's no way he'd be skilled enough to use the souls of other objects without proper training or practice with it.
Because a mere child who can see spirits isn't exactly skilled enough to use his power to that extent? Ichigo didn't even know he had Quincy powers at that time. It's not about being in denial but the matter of somebody not being skilled or developed enough to do that, unless we're counting hitting Rukia as an example.
But you are right. We shouldnt discuss this here. And I apologize if I sound or have sounded sort of rude.
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In my opinion, things such as "You cannot hurt me because of this in-verse mechanic" should be equalized. It leads to a bunch of NLF's and such that eventually cause the threads to go haywire. Verse Equalization should be used to make a fight fair, within moderation.
Example to bad equalization: Not everything under the sun needs to be equalized. Let's take SS vs say Pokemon. We have a Pokemon who can specifically absorb Infinity Energy (Pokemon's official energy source along with Aura) This does not mean that said Pokemon will just suddenly be able to absorb Cosmos.
Example to good equalization: We have SM Essence Manipulation and Digimon Digicores. These represent your very being from, Soul, Mind, Body, etc. Attacks that effect these things, destroy you essence. This can be carried over to other verses via verse equalization as every being has a type of essence that can be destroyed.
This should be evaluated on a verse-by-verse basis.
Example to bad equalization: Not everything under the sun needs to be equalized. Let's take SS vs say Pokemon. We have a Pokemon who can specifically absorb Infinity Energy (Pokemon's official energy source along with Aura) This does not mean that said Pokemon will just suddenly be able to absorb Cosmos.
Example to good equalization: We have SM Essence Manipulation and Digimon Digicores. These represent your very being from, Soul, Mind, Body, etc. Attacks that effect these things, destroy you essence. This can be carried over to other verses via verse equalization as every being has a type of essence that can be destroyed.
This should be evaluated on a verse-by-verse basis.
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I agree with Dragon on that.
And plus won't a ridiculous amount of verses be effected by the verse equalization rules being changed up like that anyway?
And plus won't a ridiculous amount of verses be effected by the verse equalization rules being changed up like that anyway?
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Things like Bleach characters or Stands being invisible can likely be handwaved with verse equalization so that a fight can actually happen, as that's not a problem for 99% of the notable characters in their verses. Fate Servants' immunity to conventional weapons should be limited to the biggest feat or statement they have to avoid NLF like other kinds of resistances/immunities or power nullifications. For example, the monsters in Zashiki Warashi and the materials in Blood Sign have a similar trait, but this should be considered limited to being immune to nuclear levels of firepower, as that's what the statements (Youkai and Materials not being bothered by nuclear missiles) and the conventional firepower of their setting tops at.
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As far as I see it, when it comes to passive abilities such as Bleach's intangibility or JoJo's Stand invisibility, then they should be negated/equalized for VS thread purposes. By not doing this, you eliminate more than half of the potential matches that can be made for any "character A" simply because "character B" who they are fighting doesn't have the same mechanics in his verse that allow harm to come to character A in character A's verse.
When it comes to simple verse energy equalization, like Dragonball Ki and Naruto Chakra, there is really no conflict involved. But of course, there are the afforementioned "I have 'X' powersource, and you don't, therefore, you can't harm me in any way" cases. To mitigate this problem, equalization is necessary and can be easily applied, otherwise there is no purpose of the VS thread one would try to make in that regard.
However, when it comes to things like Fate Servants who are immune to "conventional weapons," I believe that goes beyond the equaliztion discussion and into a "hax or NLF" discussion, and should be handled separately. The same goes for "Character A can only be killed by this specific weapon which only exists in character A's verse and only one guy from character A's verse posseses it", in which case, either a VS thread should probably not be made for such a character, or a thread can be made under the premise that they can kill character A without the specific weapon, but it would not be added as a legitimate match to either characters page because the rule was bypassed.
As I see it, this presents 2 solutions:
1. We make an official page detailing the equalization rules for each verse that can't be conveniently equalized due to some rogue element in their series that would make a VS thread one sided.
or
2. The equalization rules are made on a thread-by-thread basis, and are determined by either the thread creator, or the debaters in the thread.
The issue with the first solution is that it would be quite time consuming to go through every verse to see if they have a rogue element that makes a VS match inherently unfare. BUUUUUUT, this can be avoided by doing it over time instead by having all of the staff memebers with reasonable knowledge of certain verses point out the ones they know to be problematic, and can simply add new rules to the page as the issues arise. Eventually, mostly everything will get covered.
The issue with the second reason is that many VS thread makers can be subject to bias, which in turn invites unfair match conditions by not properly applying verse equalization to the right characters, and leaving it to the debaters would likely derail every thread by arguing about equalization instead of the match in question.
So you guys decide! <3 But I'm sure someone will come up with a better idea than me.
When it comes to simple verse energy equalization, like Dragonball Ki and Naruto Chakra, there is really no conflict involved. But of course, there are the afforementioned "I have 'X' powersource, and you don't, therefore, you can't harm me in any way" cases. To mitigate this problem, equalization is necessary and can be easily applied, otherwise there is no purpose of the VS thread one would try to make in that regard.
However, when it comes to things like Fate Servants who are immune to "conventional weapons," I believe that goes beyond the equaliztion discussion and into a "hax or NLF" discussion, and should be handled separately. The same goes for "Character A can only be killed by this specific weapon which only exists in character A's verse and only one guy from character A's verse posseses it", in which case, either a VS thread should probably not be made for such a character, or a thread can be made under the premise that they can kill character A without the specific weapon, but it would not be added as a legitimate match to either characters page because the rule was bypassed.
As I see it, this presents 2 solutions:
1. We make an official page detailing the equalization rules for each verse that can't be conveniently equalized due to some rogue element in their series that would make a VS thread one sided.
or
2. The equalization rules are made on a thread-by-thread basis, and are determined by either the thread creator, or the debaters in the thread.
The issue with the first solution is that it would be quite time consuming to go through every verse to see if they have a rogue element that makes a VS match inherently unfare. BUUUUUUT, this can be avoided by doing it over time instead by having all of the staff memebers with reasonable knowledge of certain verses point out the ones they know to be problematic, and can simply add new rules to the page as the issues arise. Eventually, mostly everything will get covered.
The issue with the second reason is that many VS thread makers can be subject to bias, which in turn invites unfair match conditions by not properly applying verse equalization to the right characters, and leaving it to the debaters would likely derail every thread by arguing about equalization instead of the match in question.
So you guys decide! <3 But I'm sure someone will come up with a better idea than me.
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@LazyHunter
I mean, Servants are the way they are because they're spiritual beings. It's like trying to punch an intangible character with nothing but brute force. It isn't going to work and I don't see how this is NLF. A lot of abilities like this one would be pointless if we said "not enough feats so NLF" since mundane characters only have access to weapons like knives most of the time.
It's also explicitly stated that they can run through flying debris with ease for as long as it isn't saturated with their foes' magical energy.
It's not like "X can only be killed by Holy Swords" or "Y can only be hurt by another Y". It's a really broad area in that anything that isn't 100% science-based bypasses it.
That said, I should point out that trained breathing is enough to generate Mystery. Hence, Kuzuki was able to punch Archer and shift his head a little, but not do any actual damage.
I mean, Servants are the way they are because they're spiritual beings. It's like trying to punch an intangible character with nothing but brute force. It isn't going to work and I don't see how this is NLF. A lot of abilities like this one would be pointless if we said "not enough feats so NLF" since mundane characters only have access to weapons like knives most of the time.
It's also explicitly stated that they can run through flying debris with ease for as long as it isn't saturated with their foes' magical energy.
It's not like "X can only be killed by Holy Swords" or "Y can only be hurt by another Y". It's a really broad area in that anything that isn't 100% science-based bypasses it.
That said, I should point out that trained breathing is enough to generate Mystery. Hence, Kuzuki was able to punch Archer and shift his head a little, but not do any actual damage.
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The reason for the immunity doesn't really matter, immunities are NLFs unless we're talking about absolute obvious stuff on the level of "Soul Manipulation won't work on a robot who lacks a soul". Youkai in Zashiki Warashi are the anthropomorphic personifications of various fears, emotions and phenomena and give the middle finger to physics. Blood Sign explicitly claims that "something from the human world cannot defeat even the weakest Material" is an absolute rule. But like Servants, that only means they are immune to what their setting has.
As far as I know, Servants are spiritual beings, but they are still tangible unless they go into spirit form where they do become intangible and invisible, so I don't agree with your comparison to trying to punch an intangible character.
As far as I know, Servants are spiritual beings, but they are still tangible unless they go into spirit form where they do become intangible and invisible, so I don't agree with your comparison to trying to punch an intangible character.
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I don't even see why the Servant's being immune to non-magical damage is such a big deal. How many characters on this site actually have the ability to harm a servant? Quite a few, either some form of energy or having magical weapons.
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- Thread starter
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I'm fine with whatever the community settles on. Can't really give much more input.
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TheC2, but then if we let that happen, Stand, bleach characters, and more gotta have that unequalized too, can't cherry pick here.
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Agreed, also some instagib shit, like "ya don't have nen, nen baptism, youre dead".
