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Zack Lee vs Grayson Waller (Lookism vs WWE)

RandomGuy2345

RandomGuy2345

He/Him
24,701
15,231
Why not?

9-A keys for both will be used.

Speed is equalized.

Zack Lee:

Grayson Waller:

Inconclusive:

Untitled.jpg
 
DeltaStriker22 said:
What can Garyson do to deal with Zack's instinctive action and stat amp via heat mode?
Click to expand...
1. How does Zack's instinctive action work?
2. How big is the stat amp?
3. Can Zack transform into Heat Mode anytime he pleases, or is there specific circumstances where it can activate?
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
1. How does Zack's instinctive action work?
2. How big is the stat amp?
3. Can Zack transform into Heat Mode anytime he pleases, or is there specific circumstances where it can activate?
Click to expand...
1. ??? It's... instinctive action. Are you asking for it's applications? I don't think it'd matter much in this fight.
2. It can make a stomp into an even fight.
3. No. He has to get mad at himself. A feeling I doubt Waller would make him feel.
 
I mean... Zack has:

  • Stamina advantage by a huge amount (he even has SW)
  • Massive LS advantage (class 25 vs peak human), I'll say I am ignorant in wrestling but... isn't it LS based?

He also has other stuff but while Waller has a little AP advantage it's not a one shot and Zack.
 
Traditional Greco-Roman does favor higher LS but that'll hardly matter for Waller in my opinion, he isn't performing traditional wrestling moves. Zack would find his way around holds a lot easier though. Waller's wrestling skill just makes it so that he could use his opponent's momentum against them if needed.
 
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DivineAura44 said:
2. It can make a stomp into an even fight.
Click to expand...
Well, Waller doesn't really have a significant advantage in any category, at least from a face value.

DivineAura44 said:
3. No. He has to get mad at himself. A feeling I doubt Waller would make him feel.
Click to expand...
Waller likes to taunt his opponents a lot and get in their head (aka what a heel does), but I doubt Waller could get those kind of feelings out of Zack unless he had prior knowledge of him in some way.

Zefra3011 said:
  • Stamina advantage by a huge amount (he even has SW)
Click to expand...
Yeah I can't say much on this. That's a very good advantage.

Zefra3011 said:
Massive LS advantage (class 25 vs peak human), I'll say I am ignorant in wrestling but... isn't it LS based?
Click to expand...
It's a bit more complicated.

Tons of wrestlers have fought and even won fights against other wrestlers despite having a significant LS disadvantage. It usually has to do with skill/intelligence, as the weaker wrestler will often outwrestle the stronger opponent to get an advantage.

Here's an example. Bobby Lashley (the big black man) is clearly the stronger of the two between him and Austin Theory (which was demonstrated throughout the match). However, Theory was able to keep Lashley to the ground and using headlocks to outwrestle him, which in turn wears out Lashley and gives Theory time to recover stamina as well.

Waller is very used to having a disadvantage in the LS department and has came out the victor in a few of these occasions. The best example is his match against Sanga.

Despite getting manhandled in the early portions of the match, Waller picks his spots carefully and was able to temporarily stun his opponent and hit his finisher to get the win.

Plus isn't Zack Lee a boxer? Does he use grappling/wrestling in any of his moveset?
 
DivineAura44 said:
Traditional Greco-Roman does favor higher LS but that'll hardly matter for Waller in my opinion, he isn't performing traditional wrestling moves. Zack would find his way around holds a lot easier though. Waller's wrestling skill just makes it so that he could use his opponent's momentum against them if needed.
Click to expand...
This is true.

Some wrestlers in the WWE do use traditional wrestling moves (and there are occasions where they outwrestle the stronger opponent), but a good portion of wrestlers (Waller included), doesn't use traditional wrestling moves.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
Well, Waller doesn't really have a significant advantage in any category, at least from a face value.
Click to expand...
I was just giving you the gap level. If it can make a stomp an even fight, chances are it'd make this even fight a stomp.
RandomGuy2345 said:
Waller likes to taunt his opponents a lot and get in their head (aka what a heel does), but I doubt Waller could get those kind of feelings out of Zack unless he had prior knowledge of him in some way.
Click to expand...
Zack isn't really the type to blow over mockery but I guess there is still a tiny chance Zack could blow a fuse over losing because he HATES losing.
 
Anyways, I'm planning on building a scaling chain because that 160 MJ feat happened back in chapter 411 of Lookism. We are now on chapter 509. I'm like 95% certain that Zack is at least 3 stomp levels above that original feat to the point where he is probably way stronger than the profile implies.

So I'm gonna be reading the past 98 (99? i don't feel like doing the math) chapters and analyzing (should take 2 or 3 hours if I don't get lazy) and I'll come back to you with a scaling chain to show how strong current Zack would be.
 
I am a little over 2 hours in and I severely underestimated these chapters. I'd say it'd take me maybe 3 or so hours from now to compile everything.
Edit: I think I'm done, or at least close.
 
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For the purposes of you being able to check out these chains, I will reference the episodes I use to draw these conclusions.

Vasco destroys a boulder, placing him at 160 MJ. Episode 411
Vasco > 160 MJ
UI Johan stomps Smiling Yu-Seong, prompting Yu-Seong to become frightened. UI Johan defeats Frightened Yu-Seong. Episode 422.
UI Johan > Frightened Yu-Seong >>> Smiling Yu-Seong
Zack and Vasco fight with Mandeok Bang, before showing getting slightly overwhelmed. Yu-Seong and Bang are implied to be relative. Episode 425. Daniel can hit DG who Vasco can't. Episode 428.
UI Johan > Frightened Yu-Seong >>> Smiling Yu-Seong = Mandeok Bang > Vasco > 160 MJ.
Zack defeats UI Johan. Episode 465.
Zack > UI Johan > Frightened Yu-Seong >>> Smiling Yu-Seong = Base Daniel > Vasco > 160 MJ.


Honestly not as much as expected. Absolutely could get higher using more than reasonable assumptions but for the sake of argument, I'm keeping the scaling chain as bullet proof as possible.

If Grayson Waller is anywhere near the value on his profile, Zack should one shot him.
All the chapters should be easily accessible on Webtoon, regardless of device.
 
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RandomGuy2345 said:
He's slightly below 197.4 MJ.
Click to expand...
Oh you had the arrow pointing towards the value. Well I'd say that Zack is in one shot territory, but if not it definitely be close to like 2 shotting. How skilled is Grayson Waller? The only way I see him winning here is his finisher. And even then, Zack Lee is one of the most durable characters in the verse (it's his defining quality now).
 
DivineAura44 said:
For the purposes of you being able to check out these chains, I will reference the episodes I use to draw these conclusions.

Vasco destroys a boulder, placing him at 160 MJ. Episode 411
Vasco > 160 MJ
UI Johan stomps Smiling Yu-Seong, prompting Yu-Seong to become frightened. UI Johan defeats Frightened Yu-Seong. Episode 422.
UI Johan > Frightened Yu-Seong >>> Smiling Yu-Seong
Base True Body Daniel fights Smiling Yu-Seong to equality. Episode 425. Daniel can hit DG who Vasco can't. Episode 428.
UI Johan > Frightened Yu-Seong >>> Smiling Yu-Seong = Base Daniel > Vasco > 160 MJ.
Zack defeats UI Johan. Episode 465.
Zack > UI Johan > Frightened Yu-Seong >>> Smiling Yu-Seong = Base Daniel > Vasco > 160 MJ.


Honestly not as much as expected. Absolutely could get higher using more than reasonable assumptions but for the sake of argument, I'm keeping the scaling chain as bullet proof as possible.

If Grayson Waller is anywhere near the value on his profile, Zack should one shot him.
All the chapters should be easily accessible on Webtoon, regardless of device.
Click to expand...
Isn't that speed/skill based?
 
DivineAura44 said:
How skilled is Grayson Waller?
Click to expand...
Grayson Waller is a former golden gloves amateur boxer. He can throw quick jabs when his opponents least expects it. He's very swift and can casually dodge strikes and quickly counter punch. He's also very adept at predicting feint attacks from his opponents. He can also bait people into slugging it out with him so he can get the upper hand.

As for Waller's finisher, that's probably his best bet here. He can hit it when his opponents least expect it, or he can catch people in mid air and hit it.

Waller's biggest advantage in his fights is his intelligence. Whatever he can think of at the moment, he'll use it to get an upper hand on his opponent. He's willing to use his finisher early on in the match to gain an advantage, he'll rake the eyes of his opponent to temporarily blind them, he'll poke his opponents eye if they're about to counter his finisher and even using the most mundane of weapons such as a pen in order to gain an advantage.

Waller has held his against Dexter Lumis, who has a "sixth sense" which allows him to fight while blindfolded.

Waller has fought on par with the likes of Johnny Gargano, a guy who mixes three different styles of wrestling into a wrestling style he calls "Lucharesu" (British chain wrestling, lucha libre and puroresu).

Waller fought on par with Nathan Frazer, the same guy who fought on par with Axiom on numerous occasions. Thanks to his gift for mathematics, Axiom believes that anything can be broken down into a formula. He states that he can quickly analyze and react to anything. He uses his gift for mathematics, as well as his natural technical skill to quickly counter submission maneuvers, pinning positions, and grapple maneuvers. His natural athleticism, mixed in with his technical ring prowess, allows him to be creative with his submissions. He also makes his speed to good use by quickly dodging countering his opponents offense. He’s also shown to have really good timing, as he can catch with people with his offense while they're in mid-air.

Grayson Waller is comparable to Austin Theory.

Austin Theory made quick work of Shelton Benjamin, who has an extensive background in amateur wrestling.

After a hard-hitting, physical match, Theory was able to defeat Dolph Ziggler clean. Ziggler has a great amateur wrestling background. Ziggler set the record for most pins in St. Edward High School with 82 pins. When he was a wrestler at Kent State University, he at one point, held the record for most career wins in the team's history, earning 121 wins.

Along with being a great amateur wrestler, Ziggler was neck-and-neck with John Morrison. John Morrison is knowledgeable about multiple martial arts. He stated in an interview that he was a former amateur collegiate wrestler and gymnastic, and he's studied kung fu, boxing, capoeira, and parkour, and that he applies all of these forms of martial arts in his fighting style. He uses his parkour to pull extremely acrobatic maneuvers, as well as to use the environment around him to execute his moves as well. He can switch to capoeira kicks and feint kicks to stun and throw his opponents off game. Efficient enough with amateur wrestling to the point where he can hold his own against the likes of Dolph Ziggler in that respective discipline.

Theory was able to outwrestle the likes of Bobby Lashley. Bobby Lashley has a very good mixed martial arts background, having a record of 15-2, defeating the likes of Joshua Franklin in 41 seconds (TKO), and Mike Cook in 24 seconds (Submission). He even defeated James Thompson, who at that point, had over a decade of experience in mixed martial arts. Lashley defeated him in 54 seconds via TKO. Lashley also has a extensive background in amateur wrestling starting from the seventh grade all the way into his service in the US Army.
 
I'll try and see if I can get something for Zack, it might take me a bit though. I have a headache so I don't feel like reading rn tbh.
RandomGuy2345 said:
After a hard-hitting, physical match, Theory was able to defeat Dolph Ziggler clean. Ziggler has a great amateur wrestling background. Ziggler set the record for most pins in St. Edward High School with 82 pins. When he was a wrestler at Kent State University, he at one point, held the record for most career wins in the team's history, earning 121 wins.
Click to expand...
Only three things guaranteed in life. Death, taxes, and Random incorporating this damn record into a skill chain.
 
DivineAura44 said:
Do we have any reason to believe that Johan from the First Affliate arc and Current Johan are equal? I think it's clear Johan did much better than Zack against Gun, so I doubt it.
Click to expand...
My dumbass accidently put the extra ">" at the start.

Zack Lee was fighting a more healthy Gun compared to Johan.
There weren't any scenes where Johan trained to be stronger (at least as far as I can recall)
Johan did much better due to endurance.
The attack didn't really do much to Gun compared to Johan's other attacks.

I think it's safe for Zack to at least somewhat downscale to the feat.
 
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