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Yu Narukami vs Dante

I still don't agree with how Dante won against Ren, but by the time I had time to debate it was already over. I guess I'll just have Yu win this one and have Ren's loss removed.

Anyway, comparing the scaling chains:

EoG Dante >>>>> Urizen PF >>>>>> Urizen >>>>> DMC4/5 >>> DMC2 Dante >>>> Void Mundus > Mundus = Argosax >= Baseline.

Yu Narukami (World) [w/ Myriad Truths] >>>>> Izanami-no-Okami [Oho Ikazuchi] >>> Izanami >> Yu Narukami (World) = Investigation Team (End-Game) = Shadow Operatives > Members of SEES (End-Game) > Makoto Yuki (Late-Game) > Elizabeth (Persona 3) = Lavenza >> Caroline = Justine >>>> Phantom Thieves (Pre-End-Game) >?> Baseline.

Yu and Dante are effectively comparable in AP now that the Persona verse scaling's been revised. Dante has a slight advantage, but Yu can buff himself and keep Dante from doing the same using Dekaja, while also being able to switch to Personas that null Physical. Also, unlike Joker, Yu resists BFR which is the basis of Dante's Sealing.

Yu has fearhax and paralysis FAR beyond what Dante's been shown to resist, and can follow-up instantly with any of his auto-aiming death manip that will hit the moment he freezes up from either fear or paralysis.

Dante's only real threat is his Time Stop, but that's only if he switches to it from his standard go-to fast enough after realizing he's being threatened by instant-death attacks... which he won't know are instant death unless he gets hit by it -- and that's assuming he can switch at all what with being paralyzed and/or scared out of his mind.

Voting Yu mid-diff.
 
Dante has instinctive reaction, which can let him dodge Yu's moves, and will also let him know from the get go that Yu is to be taken seriously, so he'll likely start with DT or Time Stop, thanks to that. From there, he can access a variety of hax and attacks that Yu cannot resist, such as his durabiity ignoring Gravity manip, his Matter hax, or other abilities like them.

Everyone forgets about the instinctive reaction, I swear.

Also, Dante now has deconstruction, which Yu does not resist. Additionally, his bullets posses spirits that let them attack the soul directly iirc.

So Dante, knowing via instinct that Yu is dangerous and hard to kill, starts with either his amp or Time stop, and immediately throws his more powerful hax abilities to deal with him.

Aditionally, Dante can resist fear aura far more powerful than you assume. Fear aura so powerful it cripples hardened warriors from mere presence and can cause them to become suicidal.

So in other words, Dante doesn't need to seal to deal with Null Phys. His decon or matter hax works enough, since Yu has never been shown to resist being destroyed "molecule by molecule until no atom remained".
 
It's also worth mentioning that Yu doesn't start with his death, fear, or paralysis hax off the start. He starts with his AP or his debuffs, and then works from there.

Dante can change how he starts thanks to his IR.

And to meme on this further, Dante is still under revisions. So there's more hax to come.
 
Yu's starting move is literally unknowable, since he's an RPG protag. That said, I'm really whatever with this match anyway. No point debating if Dante's still under revisions.
 
The anime isn't very accurate a representation of how fights actually go, considering the Persona-users rarely ever fight themselves despite P4A showing that Personas are more like wands and occasionally a set of extra limbs, with the users doing most of the actual fighting. Not to mention the lack of strategy in the combat.

As for P4A, status moves aren't even a thing in the story due to the focus on pure combat (which makes sense, as it's a fighting game). One could argue he'd start with melee because of this, but it's still an inaccurate representation.
 
One thing I want to point out is Argosax and Mundus scale above baseline by an unknown amount and are superior to the Qliphoth who is also above baseline by an unknown amount.
 
The point was your DMC scaling is off and missing pieces, regardless if Yu or Dante has the "scaling chain" advantage here. And that wouldn't really matter at all since it would come down to Dante going into DT at the start which would stop time allowing Dante to just do whatever.
 
That was the scaling chain given during the Joker VS Dante match.

Besides, "unquantifiability" only gives a few magnitudes above baseline without a supporting scaling chain, depending on how casually the feat was performed.

Unless Qliphoth performed the Low 2-C feat uber casually AND have other Low 2-Cs they're superior to, they're only slightly above baseline.
 
Solacis said:
That was the scaling chain given during the Joker VS Dante match.
Besides, "unquantifiability" only gives a few magnitudes above baseline without a supporting scaling chain, depending on how casually the feat was performed.

Unless Qliphoth performed the Low 2-C feat uber casually AND have other Low 2-Cs they're superior to, they're only slightly above baseline.
Click to expand...
That scaling chain is outdated.

True, good thing even characters Dante massively stomp are casually above baseline and superior to character above baseline who are superior to things above baseline.

That's exactly the case, the Qliphoth is casually Low 2-C with the Fruit being above that and various other characters being above that.The weakest God tier in DMC doesn't have a profile but should be Low 2-C aswell.
 
Well then you can't blame me for having outdated info considering there isn't exactly an official source for the scaling chain. I'm just working with what I've got, here.

As for Dante's time stop. It's an ability he needs to switch into, because it's not his go-to at the start of every fight.

He needs to trade his normal DT abilities to use it. Instinctive Reaction only lets him react. It's not precog or clairvoyance, so he won't know to start with the Bangle of Time equipped, nor will he be able to swap to it fast enough before Yu nails him with Mamudo, Mazio or Evil Smile; the former two being spammable omni-directional AOEs, and the third affecting anything that looks at his face.

Dante needs to buy himself time to switch, while all of Yu's abilities are thought-based, so he'll use them the moment he reacts.
 
I'm not blaming you for your scaling being wrong, I just corrected you.I don't expect you or anyone to know the scaling which is why I tried to tell you what you missed.

Dante has 2 forms of time stop, bangle of time is one but he also has the Chrono Heart which activates when Dante uses DT and DMC 5 Dante uses DT alot.

Not talking about the bangle of time but that's still an option.

He doesn't, it's thought based time stop. also what's Yu's starting move?
 
The Chrono Heart only slows time, not stops it, which means hax will still affect him since Yu can still react.

Yu starts with spells, most likely. Which makes Mazio/Mazionga/Maziodyne (his signature element) very likely. If Dante gets hit, he's paralyzed, and the moment he freezes up, he'll get nailed by death hax.
 
Guidebook states it stops time. Same guidebook information even the game lacks and is straight up missing.The game has missing lore and back story that were supposed to be shown before every mission but for some reason is missing or unfinished meanwhile the guidebook has it, so the guidebook is reliable.

DMC5 Dante starts with DT at the start if not near the beginning of the battle.Lightning/Electricity won't help at all here since Dante already extreme to resistence both electricity manipulation and paralysis inducement.
 
Alright then, if the guidebook says so, that's fine. The profile should be updated though, because it still only listed the Bangle of Time as the only time stop, and the Chrono Heart still only says it slows down time.

As for starting with DT, that was only against enemies he knew were dangerous enough to warrant it. He knows nothing about Yu, so he won't jump into Devil Trigger near the start of the fight, especially with Yu having inferior AP and looking nothing like a demon.

Dante does not resist Electricity Manipulation, and his only resistance to Paralysis comes from being able to fight against Soul Eaters, which have baseline-potency paralysis that only affects the body. Yu's paralysis affects the body, mind and soul of entities with comparable resistance to biological, mind and soul manipulation as himself.
 
Izanagi being Yu's main persona does not mean he wont use or try other personas first, specially stronger ones.
 
This key is with Izanagi-no-Okami, who can learn any set of skills (except unique ones). He has access to all of the elements, but he's still most familiar with electricity.
 
@Solacis

That's weird, the Chorno Heart isn't even mentioned in his DMC2 tab even though it was there before, might've been taken off by mistake. Anyway, here is the scan so you don't have to take my word alone: https://imgur.com/a/JIB0w

Dante has resistance to electricty even in his DMC3 key (he aslo resists basically every elemental type of attack (Wind, ice, fire etc.).These resistences aren't mentioned on the profiles because things like electricity, fire, ice resistances are too common and would be too much work to manage because of the amount of characters it would apply to. I made a CRT in the past mentioning these resistance but was decline for these reasons.In hindsight, the CRT should've been accepted now because people are unaware that Dante has these resistances.

Anyways, I'm going to bed so I'll reply later.
 
That's what Elemental Manipulation is for. A resistance to it encompasses most elements, so listing that instead of each individual one would've been the alternative.

Anyway, a resistance to the AP of electricity doesn't matter since he still can't resist Yu's paralysis inducement through electricity. So regardless, he still gets paralyzed and deathhaxed.
 
The bangle of time stuff was retconed in DMC 3 where he can use any ability in conjunction with his DT, a lot of things have been retconed
 
@Solacis

I agree here.

Dante resists electrical paralysis aswell along with biological paralysis, disease paralysis, fear paralysis and static effect inducement paralysis. Mazio attacking the mind, body and soul doesn't matter since Dante resists mind and soul attacks. Also, this is even if Yu get's to pull it off, Mazio itself may be thought based activation but the attack still has to travel from sky to ground meanwhile Dante instantly activates his DT.

Dunno if you know but DT also applies 10x AP and speed boost (speed isn't applicable here I know), applies fire, lightning and ice damage to his attacks. SDT gives Dante all of that plus summonable swords that automatically block, attack and give greater maneuverability, danmaku and can destroy his opponent from the inside.
 
What? No. Mazio doesn't need to travel, all of the spells manifest the way the caster wants them to. It's not just Electricity Manipulation, but Electricity Manipulation. Akihiko can use it as an AOE around himself, both Yu and Adachi have fired it as beams, and Ryuji has manifested it as an orb at the target's location.

Dante doesn't instantly DT. He doesn't know if Yu is an opponent that he needs to go all-out for in the first place. He's only ever gone straght to DT on enemies he has prior knowledge on that requires him to use it.

Speed boosts are applicable, but Dekaja gets rid of any stat buffs, so it's of little use.

Dante would easily win if he uses DT, much less SDT, but that's only IF he does. Mazio is more than able to hit him first, and he'd be paralyzed as soon as he's hit. Dante's mind-soul resistance is pathetic compared to what Persona characters deal with constantly, and his resistance to paralysis is baseline, which Yu tears through like butter.

Dante wins if he DTs and time stops right away. But if he fails to do both as soon as the match starts, then he gets paralyzed and death-haxed. Seeing as Dante has quite literally never led with his time stop, Yu wins this 9/10 (with that 1/10 times being a nigh-effortless win for Dante, but it's unlikely).
 
That's cool and all but based on the way you explained it and what "doesn't need to travel" means, all you said was the way the attack functions depends on what the user does with it and as you stated Yu creates beams with it, unless Yu automatically goes for big aoe and have mazio instantly activate on target, that doesn't matter.

He does, this is DMC5 Dante one of the most serious Dantes their is, I don't have to drive this point home because it's well known he will, just check any other match up with DMC2 or DMC5 Dante.

Does it null items? because that's what it's from.

Do you even know how strong Dante's resistances are?

DMC5 and 2 Dante abuses DT which happens to stop time, it works here. Yu has no counter to it and Dante resists his starting attacks.
 
Yu will go for a big AOE because that is the default for the Ma- spells, which are for hitting all surrounding enemies.

Unless Dante has gone straight into DT for every random demon he's fought in DMC5, it's not an opening move for an opponent he has no prior knowledge on.

Depends. If it's an item directly causing the enhancement, yes. If the item is just influencing the user into enhancing themselves, then no.

The profile says it comes from fighting against a demon that paralyzes its foes. That's baseline unless that paralysis has affected people with notable resistances. All I know is what's written on the profile, because that's its job. All this crap being brought up that isn't on the profile is really beginning to get on my nerves, because the people doing revisions are obviously half-assing it if all the changes aren't being implemented properly.

DT clearly does not passively stop time outside of game mechanics, because story cutscenes featuring Dante fighting in DT still has time moving normally. Even IF he goes for DT, which is already unlikely, he has to consciously stop time.
 
Which is, once again, not an instant attack. Activation maybe instant but the attack itself still travels unless you have an example of Yu instantly activating it on an enemy.

Um, Dante can detect his opponent's strength and he's been in DT like 5 or 6 times in DMC5, he definitely will use it.

It augments his DT.

The soul eater is baseline, I agree with stuff missing on the profile being annoying because it forces me to explain shit.Dante resist stuns from everything in DMC5, the flying demon (I forgot it's name) from DMC can create spores which paralyze victims, Resists a thunder strike paralysis from Mundus who is a God tier etc. My guess for why it isn't mentioned is because resisting one type of paralysis gives you resistance to the other types as well? but I dunno it's just a guess.

Game devs not wanting to make Dante OP, the Chrono Heart is canonical and clear cut with what it does and it's absorbed into his body. This happens alot in fiction.
 
It doesn't need to be instant, when Dante still has to approach him to hurt him.

How does he reach that conclusion? The only thing Yu has over him is hax, and unless he has precog/clairovoyance, he won't know its coming.

If it's only applicable to DT then it gets nulled anyway, because DT stat amps gets nulled by Dekaja.

Once again, unless the hax has worked on people with resistance to that hax, no matter how strong the user, the potency of that hax is baseline.

You obviously can't know what the devs are thinking, so unless proven otherwise, the current evidence shows that Dante needs to consciously stop time after entering DT.
 
Hey Persona! Dante dont had time stop...it just very slowing time only.Even Chrono heart DMC2 still slow timer. DMC Verse is strong i understand from who has to protect the world but about Persona i heard that it very strong too due to a lot of condition and wierd story that hard to understand for me than dmc story. In DMC2 it had secret way to get Chrono Heart by push Demon to something that need it in late game chapter until it open up for u But u still dont need it to clear the game even u dont know about it.
 
@Solacis

?. Dante has range options to kill Yu, Deconstruction, Durability Negation, Sealing from E&I, DSD summoned swords, SDT danmaku and explosion from the inside stuff. Not to mention he can teleport and shit or once again time stop.

Enhanced Senses nonsense, he can detect strong opponents and read auras.

That should work normally but I don't think it works in timestop and that would mean Yu would have to use Dekaja over Mazio or something else.

I know.

Uh, no. The item explicitly works by stopping time when Dante activates DT. It's obvious how OP that is in the eyes of developers when creating a game. Let's just agree to disagree here because you're definitely not changing my mind on this subject. This is normal with Video games, just look at GoW, Bayonetta, Borderlands etc.
 
1. Elaborate, please.

2. Enhanced Senses that can somehow help him discern exactly what hax is opponent has. That's bullshit and you know it.

3. Once again, he doesn't start with DT. Irrelevant.

4. Then it's baseline resistance, isn't it?

5. Assumptions, assumptions. Story cutscenes take precedence over flavor text, so unless you have definitive proof of your claims, time stop isn't passively active in DT.
 
1. On what in particular? Those are definitely on his profile iirc.

2.When did I say that? Dante can detect his opponents strength, power, level, tier. Not literal power lol.

3.Yes he does unless you want to prove otherwise because 99% knowledgeable DMC members disagree with you.

4.I mean...sure.

6.You don't like the item description or dislike how it works, make a CRT. Otherwise that's how it works.
 
1. The hax are, but the methods aren't. Like, is it a beam or a wave? Is it thought-based? In-character?

2. That's what was implied, because that's what Dante needs for him to decide that DT should be his first move. If all he sees are raw stats, his own are notably above Yu's, so he has no reason to see him as a threat.

3. Because an opening move is not an opening move unless he's actually opened with it in the vast majority of his battles. Considering he's only opened with it on opponents that are strong enough to warrant it, then Yu not being strong enough to warrant it would mean he doesn't open with it. How about actually giving evidence instead of pulling crowd mentality?

4. Then that's settled.

5. I don't have to. That's the standards of the wiki. I can source every fight that Dante has while in DT post-Chrono Heart and definitively show that time is, in fact, not stopped. Meanwhile, all you have are an outdated item description and a claim that you could know what the devs were thinking when creating the cutscenes for DT!Dante fights. Call an admin, see how that goes for you.
 
1.Deconstruction,Durability Negation and Sealing are from E&I all are seperate attacks with durability negation being just from shooting E&I. DSD summoned swords are automatic and are spectral swords. SDT danmaku is an projectile attack and the explosion from inside is instant and it lock it's target in place, preventing them from doing anything while exploding them from the inside.

2.DMC 5 Dante naturally uses DT even without the presence of enemies and he doesn't need to decide if he should use it, he isn't the type of person to stress over that stuff.This is the most serious Dante, he will use it regardless if his enemy is slightly weaker than him. If raw stats Yu is only human level or anything below 3-A than Dante just smacks, he doesn't mind.

3.Hey, how about you think logically for a second? You just did all of this complaining about how strong Yu is compared to Dante and now all of a sudden he's weak and Dante supposedly wouldn't use DT because he wouldn't see Yu as a threat? BS. I've told you DMC5 Dante is serious and how he spams DT wether or not you believe me is up to you, hell ask someone else if you have to because you obviously won't take my word for it.

5.I used the standards, hell an multiple admins agreed to it, why do you think it's on his profile? The game shows it activates when DT activates and the description states it activates when DT activates, the guidebook states it activates when DT activates. Don't like it, make a CRT, that's not my problem.
 
1. That's pretty threatening, yeah.

2. Then you could have said that instead of just repeating yourself over and over, couldn't you? When someone asks for the justification regarding a certain statement, you give it, or else things get to be like this.

3. I have never once said that Yu was stronger than Dante in raw stats. In fact, I've been repeating myself, constantly, that he was notably weaker in AP. I said that Yu's hax is the source of his wincon. I said that Dante wouldn't see Yu as a threat because his AP is notably lower compared to Dante, and that's all Dante can sense.

5. Except the game contradicts itself by showing that it doesn't activate when he enters DT in cutscenes. Right here, at exactly 0:52, rocks are falling from the ceiling, at 4:29, the planks are blown away by Dante taking flight, and at 10:21, the gravel is displaced by Dante's charge. Unless you prove otherwise, time is not stopped, and your reasons based on that claim are invalid. Don't like it? That's not my problem.
 
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