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Yhwach Conceptual Manipulation type 2

Bernkastelll

Bernkastelll

15,478
10,278
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Yhwach

Yhwach (ユーハバッハ, Yuhabahha?) is the Father of the Quincy, the monarch of the Wandenreich, and the son of the Soul King, known by the designation "A" - The Almighty. As a baby, Yhwach was incapable of sight, speech, or even the slightest movement, but never feared or despaired, as he knew he would...
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So, Soul King page tells that he created the concept of life and death, hence, he has conceptual manipulation, however, in the chapter 686, we are told that Life and Death still have their shapes because Ichigo defeated Yhwach, which means that Yhwach merging and destroying the worlds to the chaotic state that it was before Soul King stabilization, life and death would lose their shapes
Bleach_-_Chapter_686_-_13.jpg
 
Pretty sure this would go under
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Conceptual Manipulation

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
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Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object, does not qualify as conceptual manipulation.
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And so is not counted as Conceptual Manipulation.
 
Everything12 said:
Pretty sure that would be caused by a chain reaction of merging the Worlds and disturbing the order and not him directly manipulating the Concept so it shouldn't grant him Conceptual Manipulation.
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Not really, Yhwach plan was to destroy everything created by SK and returning it to 0, which is how the profile currently rates them
Everything12 said:
Pretty sure this would go under


And so is not counted as Conceptual Manipulation.
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It doesnt? Yhwach plane is to undo everything that SK did, Life and Death was one of these things that SK did, and it was stated that Life and Death still have their shapes because Yhwach was defeated
 
I mean...it's kinda vague for conceptual manipulation, so I kinda have to disagree here. However, I also agree with Everything12, so it shouldn't really be conceptual manipulation.
 
Tarang123 said:
I mean...it's kinda vague for conceptual manipulation, so I kinda have to disagree here. However, I also agree with Everything12, so it shouldn't really be conceptual manipulation.
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How is it vague? SK has Concept hax due creating it, Yhwach is going to undo it, and why is Everything12 point being valid if its not chain reaction? Yhwach after absorbing SK could keep the world's stabilization by himself, and even then, was going to destroy and undo it, so, its not chain reaction
 
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Bernkastelll said:
How is it vague? SK has Concept hax due creating it, Yhwach is going to undo it, and why is Everything12 point being valid if its not chain reaction? Yhwach after absorbing SK could keep the world's stabilization by himself, and even then, was going to destroy and undo it, so, its not chain reaction
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Well, could you show the scan for conceptual creation first? If that's counted, then I'll agree with this. But I also want more context with how Ywach was capable of removing the concepts of life and death or whatever
 
Tarang123 said:
Well, could you show the scan for conceptual creation first? If that's counted, then I'll agree with this. But I also want more context with how Ywach was capable of removing the concepts of life and death or whatever
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Just check Soul King profile, his profile already haw Conceptual Manipulation due it, and Yhwach is capable to do it because he absorbed Soul King, so, he has the power to destroy/undo everything created by him, as well being able to destroy all the realms in the verse (all this stuff already is accepted in their profiles)
 
Bernkastelll said:
Just check Soul King profile, his profile already haw Conceptual Manipulation due it, and Yhwach is capable to do it because he absorbed Soul King, so, he has the power to destroy/undo everything created by him, as well being able to destroy all the realms in the verse (all this stuff already is accepted in their profiles)
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Interesting...I agree with this revision unless scans/evidence is shown that he's not directly affecting them...
 
Everything12 said:
Pretty sure that would be caused by a chain reaction of merging the Worlds and disturbing the order and not him directly manipulating the Concept so it shouldn't grant him Conceptual Manipulation.
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This is likely true, but you have to take into account some things.

Life and death didn’t existed, and Soul King created them (that is why Yhwach wanted to remove them in the first place), Yhwach absorbed multiple pieces of the soul king and his husk and obtained the soul king status, he also wanted to create a new world. It is also accepted as not being a chain reaction, so we should take Yhwach words at face value. The soul king status itself should grant him the ability to affects those concepts as his father Did, logically speaking there is nothing that contradict his words.

I agree with the addition.
 
also FYI we are just changing his type to be the same as the soul king

(Type 2. Created the concepts of life and death)
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Soul King

The Soul King (霊王, Reiō) is the king of Soul Society, whose existence in Soul Society is as symbolic as it is absolute. The king resides in the Soul King Palace that exists in a separate, special realm in the very core of Soul Society, which is protected by the Royal Guard. The door to this...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Tarang123 said:
that it wasn't a side-affect and was direct
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is basically the whole narrative point, he becomes the soul king with the intent to destroy everything his father made and then create something new
 
The reason Yhwach would erase the concepts of life and death is because there would be no cycle of souls, thus no afterlife. It'd work if he was actually erasing the them on a conceptual level but since he'd merge the worlds life and death would cease to happen. Life and death aren't even concepts in Bleachverse, they're a state of being, like the Soul is something that's physical and tangible in the bleachverse and even more, quantifiable.

I'm not saying that Reiō didn't create concepts, I'm saying that the way Yhwach is influencing them is not on a conceptual level.

Here's an analogy. The concept of wetness exists, right? Assuming the world was limited to earth, a conceptual manipulator would erase the concept of wetness itself but what Yhwach is doing is erasing all water so that wetness isn't something that happens, not actually manipulating concepts. Yes, he's erasing all water/moisture so that no one can be wet anymore but he's not erasing the concept itself. A conceptual manipulation feat would be making it so that even when water exists, you can't get wet.

Even in bleachverse there is a conceptual manipulator, Ichibe'e, who does actually erase the concept of whatever his ink touches. What Yhwach is doing however is not concept manipulation, he's changing something so that the concept is no longer applicable. If an afterlife started to exist again, the concepts would again be in play because they never ceased to exist in the first place, but what conceptual manipulation would do is erase that concept entirely so that even when an afterlife was made again by a 2-C being, death won't occur.

I hope I was clear in why Yhwach's feat is not concept manipulation, because this reads like a word salad even to me.
 
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TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
what he was doing is undoing what the soul king had made (which is literally everything) his whole thing was to destroy death to make a world like the original one
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Which is what I said. As a consequence to that, life and death won't exist anymore... or scratch that. There's actually an argument to be had here.

While the Soul King divided worlds, he still had to make a cycle of life and death because just dividing up worlds doesn't mean that a cycle of souls automatically happens. Since Yhwach was going to destroy that concept as well (statements in OP) I don't think the chain reaction argument works, because SK Yhwach should be capable of pretty much what Reiō can do. If Reiō was capable of making concepts, Yhwach should be capable of destroying those concepts too.
 
KarematsuShinjuu said:
Which is what I said. As a consequence to that, life and death won't exist anymore... or scratch that. There's actually an argument to be had here.

While the Soul King divided worlds, he still had to make a cycle of life and death because just dividing up worlds doesn't mean that a cycle of souls automatically happens. Since Yhwach was going to destroy that concept as well (statements in OP) I don't think the chain reaction argument works, because SK Yhwach should be capable of pretty much what Reiō can do. If Reiō was capable of making concepts, Yhwach should be capable of destroying those concepts too.
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which is why i said that we just making his concept hax the same as soul king, Yhwach at that point is basically the same as the soul king
 
If Yhwach could directly remove the concepts of life and death, what’s the point in destroying the realms? Like y’all realize he destroyed the realms to remove life and death, destruction of the realms and soul cycle is what removes life and death. Yhwach isn’t removing the concept directly, he’s only removing the realms directly.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
If Yhwach could directly remove the concepts of life and death, what’s the point in destroying the realms? Like y’all realize he destroyed the realms to remove life and death, destruction of the realms and soul cycle is what removes life and death. Yhwach isn’t removing the concept directly, he’s only removing the realms directly.
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So ur saying he not stronger than WSK or?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
If Yhwach could directly remove the concepts of life and death, what’s the point in destroying the realms? Like y’all realize he destroyed the realms to remove life and death, destruction of the realms and soul cycle is what removes life and death. Yhwach isn’t removing the concept directly, he’s only removing the realms directly.
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Well the thing is, SK did make the realms and the concept of life and death, Yhwach gains the powers of whoever he absorbs and he's absorbed all parts of SK+is the son of SK+Has the same abilities even before absorbing him+replaced him entirely+was capable of undoing what SK did. While it's superficially implied the way he was going to destroy the "concepts" of life and death was indirectly, he should have conceptual manipulation type 2 just from the virtue of absorbing SK's powers. He does have all the sternritter powers listed, and tbh he was undoing what SK did and thus had to be on a similar level of conceptual manipulation as him.

Also quincy can kill you without it being related to the cycle of souls, and Yhwach implied all death was going to vanish, not just via natural means.

I agree with your concerns but there's also evidence suggesting otherwise i.e. there's an argument to be had here.
 
KarematsuShinjuu said:
Yhwach gains the powers of whoever he absorbs and he's absorbed all parts of SK
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This isn't true at all, we factually know that there were innumerable fragments of the SK that Yhwach never absorbed, not to mention SK's legs which we never even saw.

And clearly this sort of logic isn't even used here, otherwise we'd just give Yhwach everything Prime SK has, which we don't.
 
Purgy said:
This isn't true at all, we factually know that there were innumerable fragments of the SK that Yhwach never absorbed,
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oh yeah the CFYOW stuff, my bad. But:
KarematsuShinjuu said:
Well the thing is, SK did make the realms and the concept of life and death, Yhwach was capable of undoing what SK did.
Click to expand...
Even if this is from a chain reaction,
KarematsuShinjuu said:
Also quincy can kill you without it being related to the cycle of souls, and Yhwach implied all death was going to vanish, not just via natural means.
Click to expand...

This won't stem from a chain reaction.
 
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