Why Dark Multiverse is at 1-A?

[The_Fiend888]

I mean, it is just a trash can for broken worlds. Wouldn't it be a bit illogical if this place was even 'more real' than Monitor Sphere?

And, when Kendra talked about the older, subconscious world called the Dark Multiverse on which multiverse floats, couldn't she have actually been talking about the World Forge, which her partner might have confused for a part of it?

I think it seems to fit this description better: it is first dark matter realm and is covered in molten metal, It has been said that this place is the true darkness that Hawkman has been searching for, it is located beneath the Orrerry and at the bottom of the Dark Multiverse, it is where all worlds, dark or otherwise, are forged, it is tied to hopes and fears of people etc.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I mean, it is just a trash can for broken worlds. Wouldn't it be a bit illogical if this place was even 'more real' than Monitor Sphere?

The entire Multiverse up to that point is nothing to the vastness of the Dark Multiverse.

And, when Kendra talked about the older, subconscious world called the Dark Multiverse on which multiverse floats, couldn't she have actually been talking about the World Forge, which her partner might have confused for a part of it?

The World Forge is part of the Dark Multiverse. From what I remember it sits at its center.

I think it seems to fit this description better: it is first dark matter realm and is covered in molten metal, It has been said that this place is the true darkness that Hawkman has been searching for, it is located beneath the Orrerry and at the bottom of the Dark Multiverse, it is where all worlds, dark or otherwise, are forged, it is tied to hopes and fears of people etc.

It wasn't the “dark matter realm” as stated by Perpetua, herself, not to be part of her design and it naturally was there but was nameless at the very beginning. All that about fears and hope is the nature of the worlds that inhabit it filling the Dark Multiverse, but obviously, it was never the contingent that the Dark Multiverse relied on.

Also, up until Flashpoint: Beyond, it was more than safe to say the full extent reaches beyond the Multiverse entirely including the Sixth Dimension, but obviously that changed.

 

[Xearesay]

The entire Multiverse up to that point is nothing to the vastness of the Dark Multiverse.

The World Forge is part of the Dark Multiverse. From what I remember it sits at its center.

It wasn't the “dark matter realm” as stated by Perpetua, herself, not to be part of her design and it naturally was there but was nameless at the very beginning. All that about fears and hope is the nature of the worlds that inhabit it filling the Dark Multiverse, but obviously, it was never the contingent that the Dark Multiverse relied on.

Also, up until Flashpoint: Beyond, it was more than safe to say the full extent reaches beyond the Multiverse entirely including the Sixth Dimension, but obviously that changed.

Just saying, this isn’t true. The Upside Down Mans realm(the Otherplace) envelopes the Dark Multiverse, and it’s supposed to be a polar opposite to Hecate’s original domain before the Sphere of Gods formed from it. His realm is even called the “the Dark sphere of gods”in the synopsis of one issue, so the Dark Multiverse pretty much can’t be superior to the whole map.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Just saying, this isn’t true. The Upside Down Mans realm(the Otherplace) envelopes the Dark Multiverse, and it’s supposed to be a polar opposite to Hecate’s original domain before the Sphere of Gods formed from it. His realm is even called the “the Dark sphere of gods”in the synopsis of one issue, so the Dark Multiverse pretty much can’t be superior to the whole map.

Always bringing this up and remains untrue. Since the story literally explains that it is “connected” to the Darker Multiverse as it was explained that he shaped a void to turn into the Otherplace, it is not the entire extent of the Dark Multiverse which is made clear in Death Metal.

The statement said by Doctor Fate in no way implies that it encompasses the Dark Multiverse because the statement literally mentions it exists at the edge of the Dark Multiverse hence why the “barrier” if they tore it would access the main Multiverse. The Dark Multiverse as shown was superior to the Map.

 

[Xearesay]

Always bringing this up and remains untrue. Since the story literally explains that it is “connected” to the Darker Multiverse as it was explained that he shaped a void to turn into the Otherplace, it is not the entire extent of the Dark Multiverse which is made clear in Death Metal.

The statement said by Doctor Fate in no way implies that it encompasses the Dark Multiverse because the statement literally mentions it exists at the edge of the Dark Multiverse hence why the “barrier” if they tore it would access the main Multiverse. The Dark Multiverse as shown was superior to the Map.

First of all it wasn’t Dr. Fate making the statement you’re referring to, it was Nabu. And second, thats not what Nabu said. Nabu directly states “The Great Darkness awakens in the sphere surrounding the Dark Multiverse. The eyes of the Otherkind have turned upon reality.” Surround and encompass are synonyms that literally mean the same thing if you aren’t aware. If the Otherplace surrounds the dark Multiverse and is equal to the pre-state of the Godsphere, and the Godsphere is smaller than the whole map, then the dark multiverse by itself cannot be bigger than the entire map, as it’s surpassed by structures already smaller than it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

First of all it wasn’t Dr. Fate making the statement you’re referring to, it was Nabu. And second, thats not what Nabu said. Nabu directly states “The Great Darkness awakens in the sphere surrounding the Dark Multiverse. The eyes of the Otherkind have turned upon reality.” Surround and encompass are synonyms that literally mean the same thing if you aren’t aware. If the Otherplace surrounds the dark Multiverse and is equal to the pre-state of the Godsphere, and the Godsphere is smaller than the whole map, then the dark multiverse by itself cannot be bigger than the entire map, as it’s surpassed by structures already smaller than it.

Except we see in Metal that the Multiverse was used as an example of how small it was to the Dark Multiverse.

The obvious you missed was what was said after that where they said “if they tear down the barrier of the Multiverse that separates it then it would allow them access to the Multiverse.” Obviously, they couldn't have opened from three locations: Monitor Sphere, Fifth Dimension, and Sixth Dimension. The most clear-cut case of the “barrier” was the one Hecate placed when she was born from the raw energies of the still-forming Multiverse as the story expresses that the “Otherplace” is a reflection of the Godsphere while the Dark Multiverse was literally mentioned to be the vast ocean where the entire Multiverse was nothing but a bubble hued from it. This is obvious since the Dark Multiverse wasn't part of Perpetua's designed depsite her creating the Multiverse from the energies of the Presence.

This is addressed again in Rise of the New Gods when it was mentioned that the Multiverse existed above the Dark Multiverse and since the Metal series was written by two authors there's no contradiction between Kendra's statement and the narration of Rise of the New Gods. So while the Totality encompasses the Godsphere it appearantly didn't to the Dark Multiverse which again emphasizes it was outside the Multiverse altogether alongside the statements that it made the Multiverse in its entirety small in comparison as it was much “vaster and older” despite the Otherplace being created because Upside Downman wanted to mock Hecate(whose younger than the Multiverse, within Perpetua’s power to manipulate, and her realm existing without her).

 

[Xearesay]

Except we see in Metal that the Multiverse was used as an example of how small it was to the Dark Multiverse.

Where? All I recollect seeing in Dark Nights Metal was Dream talking about how the fake multiverse is comprised of failed realities that were too weak to enter the orrery. Meaning every reality that comprises the dark multiverse was initially supposed to exist in the Orrery of Worlds as a positive matter or anti matter universe. And since the Godsphere already transcends the worlds in the Orrery, then it stands to make sense that it also transcend the dark multiverse.

The obvious you missed was what was said after that where they said “if they tear down the barrier of the Multiverse that separates it then it would allow them access to the Multiverse.” Obviously, they couldn't have opened from three locations: Monitor Sphere, Fifth Dimension, and Sixth Dimension. The most clear-cut case of the “barrier” was the one Hecate placed when she was born from the raw energies of the still-forming Multiverse as the story expresses that the “Otherplace” is a reflection of the Godsphere while the Dark Multiverse was literally mentioned to be the vast ocean where the entire Multiverse was nothing but a bubble hued from it. This is obvious since the Dark Multiverse wasn't part of Perpetua's designed depsite her creating the Multiverse from the energies of the Presence.

They said “barriers” but I didn’t leave it out, it’s just largely irrelevant to proving any of the arguments in this conversation. Even as I’m reading your comment, I truly don’t know why you’re bringing it up, because it doesn’t invalidate that it’s “the sphere surrounding the Dark Multiverse” as Nabu stated. Unless of course, you think Nabu is intentionally contradicting himself but you’d obviously need an explanation for why he’d do such a thing.

Now for the scans you linked, none of this supports what you’re talking about. If you read closely you’ll see that Hawkgirl is comparing it to the number of universes in the Orrery, meaning that when she’s talking about how its bigger, she’s speaking about how it contains more universes outside of the set number that they know exist in the Orrery. And this makes sense, as I’ve already mentioned before, Dream of the Endless would state that these worlds in the dark multiverse were intended to enter the Orrery, but didn’t because they were too corrupt.

Also I think you’re misinterpreting Perpetua’s statement. It’s acknowledged in Justice League that she made the dark where the world forges sits and the world forger and produces what will rise into the Orrery. What she didn’t intend was for there to be a collection of failed worlds, because as you should know from Dreams statement, the worlds which comprise the dark multiverse were supposed to be dissolved. However, after Barbatos betrayed his master(the World Forger) he started letting those failed worlds live on, which was not in Perpetua design. She still created the domain(the dark) and she created dark matter, which is what these worlds are made of, she just didn’t intend for the conflict between Barbatos and the World Forger to allow for a whole multiverse to exist outside of the Orrery.

So while the Totality encompasses the Godsphere it appearantly didn't to the Dark Multiverse which again emphasizes it was outside the Multiverse altogether alongside the statements that it made the Multiverse in its entirety small in comparison as it was much “vaster and older” despite the Otherplace being created because Upside Downman wanted to mock Hecate(whose younger than the Multiverse, within Perpetua’s power to manipulate, and her realm existing without her).

Yes It does. As I said above, Perpetua literally made dark matter and the dark zone. She made the space in which those worlds exist, and the substance that comprises them. She just never intend for there to be universes that continue to exist from that dark matter and in that dark zone.

And sure it’s outside the multiverse(as in the orrery) but it’s not a plane that transcends the map. It’s just a hidden multiverse in the dark zone that Perpetua created. As we know Hecate started out as this state of raw magic within the dark, and once she shaped herself out of her light, he took form from the darkness. So not only does the dark multiverse come from what Perpetua made but the Otherplace which surrounds it also came from what Perpetua made.

So no offense but your argument here is completely bunk. Not only have I proven that the Otherplace surrounds the dark multiverse, meaning it logically can’t extend beyond the Godsphere and the Collective Unconscious, but I’ve also proven that all of this stuff is indeed within the system of what Perpetua made. Realms like Comic Book Limbo and Monitor Sphere, which are on the map, should all exist beyond the Dark Multiverse due to the aforementioned reasons.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Where? All I recollect seeing in Dark Nights Metal was Dream talking about how the fake multiverse is comprised of failed realities that were too weak to enter the orrery. Meaning every reality that comprises the dark multiverse was initially supposed to exist in the Orrery of Worlds as a positive matter or anti matter universe. And since the Godsphere already transcends the worlds in the Orrery, then it stands to make sense that it also transcend the dark multiverse.

Where did you make this conclusion based on the scans? We know that the World Forger made every world in the Multiverse from the World Forge to send into the positive matter realm, but it was never stated to be created prior to the Dark Multiverse. This is shown as the Dark Multiverse had already existed as a vastness realm of darkness with dark energy prior to Perpetua or the Upside Downman. This is made obvious when Perpetua said “the totality of power to shape the realms ultimately belongs to me” yet she alongside the story on several instances said that the “Dark Multiverse isn't part of the design of Creation” meaning it existed without her and by other statements prior to the Multiverse.

They said “barriers” but I didn’t leave it out, it’s just largely irrelevant to proving any of the arguments in this conversation. Even as I’m reading your comment, I truly don’t know why you’re bringing it up, because it doesn’t invalidate that it’s “the sphere surrounding the Dark Multiverse” as Nabu stated. Unless of course, you think Nabu is intentionally contradicting himself but you’d obviously need an explanation for why he’d do such a thing.

It does because the “barrier” was mentioned in Witching Hour storyline as created by Hecate to separate the Upside Downman from the realms of possibilities(The Sphere of the Gods). The Otherplace was created from the Dark Multiverse after Hecate did that while the Dark Multiverse had existed prior to and after Upside Downman even when the realm was changed by the Justice League Dark member after Upside Downman’s defeat. So it existed at the top of the Dark Multiverse as oppose to containing it entirely.

Now for the scans you linked, none of this supports what you’re talking about. If you read closely you’ll see that Hawkgirl is comparing it to the number of universes in the Orrery, meaning that when she’s talking about how its bigger, she’s speaking about how it contains more universes outside of the set number that they know exist in the Orrery. And this makes sense, as I’ve already mentioned before, Dream of the Endless would state that these worlds in the dark multiverse were intended to enter the Orrery, but didn’t because they were too corrupt.

Your statement literally doesn't answer anything about the history or creation of the Dark Multiverse, which we already knew predates the Light Multiverse and wasn't designed by Perpetua or anyone. So the statement that the Multiverse floats upon this oceanic subconscious realm and being “tiny” has yet to be disproved by you. The Dark Multiverse holds infinite failed worlds, but like the Light Multiverse that's not the only thing that was contained and there are structures older than the worlds.

Also I think you’re misinterpreting Perpetua’s statement. It’s acknowledged in Justice League that she made the dark where the world forges sits and the world forger and produces what will rise into the Orrery. What she didn’t intend was for there to be a collection of failed worlds, because as you should know from Dreams statement, the worlds which comprise the dark multiverse were supposed to be dissolved. However, after Barbatos betrayed his master(the World Forger) he started letting those failed worlds live on, which was not in Perpetua design. She still created the domain(the dark) and she created dark matter, which is what these worlds are made of, she just didn’t intend for the conflict between Barbatos and the World Forger to allow for a whole multiverse to exist outside of the Orrery.

Unless you're saying that “Dark Multiverse” is only “failed worlds” then you hadn't addressed nor understood the point that it was called “vaster and older” than our Multiverse and the Multiverse floating completely on the realm.

Yes It does. As I said above, Perpetua literally made dark matter and the dark zone. She made the space in which those worlds exist, and the substance that comprises them. She just never intend for there to be universes that continue to exist from that dark matter and in that dark zone.

No, it had already existed prior to her creating the Multiverse. Obviously, she can make a realm full of dark matter with the potential for life. However, the Dark Multiverse itself wasn't created by her. Like the Upside Downman, she can take some space from the vastness of the Dark Multiverse to shape into her realm. Accessing the Dark Multiverse isn't impossible, but the story never mentioned who “created it” and it was probably just a voidless space that existed without a creation origin.

And sure it’s outside the multiverse(as in the orrery) but it’s not a plane that transcends the map. It’s just a hidden multiverse in the dark zone that Perpetua created. As we know Hecate started out as this state of raw magic within the dark, and once she shaped herself out of her light, he took form from the darkness. So not only does the dark multiverse come from what Perpetua made but the Otherplace which surrounds it also came from what Perpetua made.

The story only told us Perpetua created the three realms for the coming Multiverse. The Dark Multiverse had already existed as vastness realm of darkness prior to Perpetua. No statement said “Perpetua created dark matter” in the same vein Hecate didn't create “Chaos Magic” it was a natural primordial force that they used and introduced to the world.

So no offense but your argument here is completely bunk. Not only have I proven that the Otherplace surrounds the dark multiverse, meaning it logically can’t extend beyond the Godsphere and the Collective Unconscious, but I’ve also proven that all of this stuff is indeed within the system of what Perpetua made. Realms like Comic Book Limbo and Monitor Sphere, which are on the map, should all exist beyond the Dark Multiverse due to the aforementioned reasons.

You haven't? Your point were very fallible.

 

[Xearesay]

We know that the World Forger made every world in the Multiverse from the World Forge to send into the positive matter realm, but it was never stated to be created prior to the Dark Multiverse.

I’m confused, do you think that the Dark Multiverse worlds weren’t created from the World Forge? As in when Dream literally tells that story to Superman and Batman in one of the scans I linked, you think those broken worlds he mentions are not the Dark Multiverse worlds? I really hope I don’t have to explain why that’s such an obviously poor interpretation.

The Otherplace was created from the Dark Multiverse after Hecate did that while the Dark Multiverse had existed prior to and after Upside Downman even when the realm was changed by the Justice League Dark member after Upside Downman’s defeat. So it existed at the top of the Dark Multiverse as oppose to containing it entirely.

First of all the Upside Down Man wasn’t in the dark multiverse, he was in the Otherplace or the Primordial Darkness, which I’ve also been calling the Dark. The Dark Multiverse refers to the collection of worlds that are in the Darkness, that were created from the World Forge. On the other hand, the Otherplace or the Dark is just the reality of the Upside Down Man, as he not only exist in that domain but he also is that domain.

This is supported multiple times during Justice League Dark, by Nabu, Hecate, and the Upside Down Man himself.

The Dark Multiverse holds infinite failed worlds, but like the Light Multiverse that's not the only thing that was contained and there are structures older than the worlds.

This is kind of arguing semantics but that’s literally not what it refers to. Dark multiverse = the collection of dark matter universes. Positive multiverse = the collection of positive matter universes. Sure the Otherplace originates from Darkness, and the Sphere of Gods originates from the Light, but they’re not a part of the dark/light matter multiverses. And this is the reason why Nabu says “the sphere surrounding the Dark Multiverse” and not the “top of the Dark Multiverse” which is what you’re trying to claim.

Unless you're saying that “Dark Multiverse” is only “failed worlds” then you hadn't addressed nor understood the point that it was called “vaster and older” than our Multiverse and the Multiverse floating completely on the realm.

The collection of failed worlds but yes that’s what I’ve been saying this whole time. And I didn’t address the vaster and older part because it doesn’t change my claims. I never claimed one Multiverse did or didn’t predate the other, and I agreed with the idea that it’s bigger due to the positive multiverse only having 52 universes, while the Dark Multiverse is infinite. You just don’t understand what I’m saying because you’ve been taking your own presupposition as an automatic fact throughout this entire conversation. My whole argument from the very beginning has literally been the dark multiverse is on the same level as the Orrery but contains more universes. The fact that you’re now asking me whether that’s my argument when we’re already over 5 comments deep is kind of insane.

No statement said “Perpetua created dark matter” in the same vein Hecate didn't create “Chaos Magic” it was a natural primordial force that they used and introduced to the world.

Chaos magic did not predate Hecate? The magic given to the Lords of Order and Chaos literally came from Hecate reaching into the Upside Down Man’s realm and bringing his power into the world. After being given this power, some of the magicians tried to bind it for more control, and so they created the first books of magic, and required magic to be accessed via artifacts and spell castings. This half was the Lords of Order. The other half of those magicians didn’t care about rules and wanted to use the magic as it is, without boundaries, and they became the Lords of Chaos.

Also genuine question, do you actually think dark matter, positive matter, and anti matter predate the creation of Perpetua’s tripartite multiverse? If so, that’s just... lol.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I’m confused, do you not think that the Dark Multiverse worlds weren’t created from the World Forge? As in when m Dream literally talks about it to Superman and Batman in one of the scans I linked, you think those broken worlds are not the Dark Multiverse worlds? I really hope I don’t have to explain why that’s such an obviously poor interpretation.

The World Forge is contained within the Dark Multiverse as is the worlds. That's literally what inhabits the realm. Yet none of that fills it in its entirety nor was it only created after the Forge or the worlds, which it predates both.

First of all the Upside Down Man wasn’t in the dark multiverse, he was in the Otherplace or the Primordial Darkness, which I’ve also been calling the Dark. The Dark Multiverse refers to the collection of worlds that are in the Darkness, that were created from the World Forge. On the other hand, the Otherplace or the Dark is just the reality of the Upside Down Man, as he not only exist in that domain but he also is that domain.

This is supported multiple times during Justice League Dark, by Nabu, Hecate, and the Upside Down Man himself.

This has anything to do with the Dark Multiverse origin? The Otherplace is stated to be tied to the Darker Multiverse in the same way the Sphere of the Gods is connected to the Light Multiverse as structures within said totality.

Also, the Otherplace is just a voided space within the Dark Multiverse that was filled with the Upside Downman will as he turned it into his reality, but, obviously he may be lord of it but he isn't realm itself. The realm functions of whose will fills it hence why Swamp Thing almost beat him in his own realm of power and eventually when he was stuck in the mind of Zatanna the realm was forged into something else. So he's not “the realm itself” just because he rented a space with his will and he lost to Zatanna in a battle of will and his realm is no longer the same after his defeat.

We know that the Sphere and the Multiverse predates Hecate who predates the Upside Downman. So the Dark Multiverse being called vaster and older than the Multiverse means that it had already existed even if it wasn't named “Dark Multiverse” during that time.

This is kind of arguing semantics but that’s literally not what it refers to. Dark multiverse = the collection of dark matter universes. Positive multiverse = the collection of positive matter universes. Sure the Otherplace originates from Darkness, and the Sphere of Gods originates from the Light, but they’re not a part of the dark/light matter multiverses. And this is the reason why Nabu says “the sphere surrounding the Dark Multiverse” and not the “top of the Dark Multiverse” which is what you’re trying to claim.

The barrier that Hecate created was to separate her from Upside Downman. So the barrier is between the Sphere of the Gods and the Otherplace which both are connected to their larger Multiverse totality. The realm isn't somewhere in the middle of the Dark Multiverse or anything of the sort especially if it does “surround” which would mean it's at the exterior of the Dark Multiverse.

Plus, before Alepheus was created. Perpetua already designed the dark matter realm for him to create worlds. That means that the realm which is the Forge which exists within the Dark Multiverse would imply it was there before the creations of worlds. The semantics here is the name “Dark Multiverse” which wasn't established until later, but, obviously refers to that dark realm that existed before and eventually beneath the Multiverse.

The collection of failed worlds but yes that’s what I’ve been saying this whole time. And I didn’t address the vaster and older part because it doesn’t change my claims. I never claimed one Multiverse did or didn’t predate the other, and I agreed with the idea that it’s bigger due to the positive multiverse only having 52 universes, while the Dark Multiverse is infinite. You just don’t understand what I’m saying because you’ve been taking your own presupposition as an automatic fact throughout this entire conversation. My whole argument from the very beginning has literally been the dark multiverse is on the same level as the Orrery but contains more universes. The fact that you’re now asking me whether that’s my argument when we’re already over 5 comments deep is kind of insane.

If its “older, larger, and more vast” than the Light Multiverse then clearly, it isn't just collections of “dark worlds.” It’s a entire realm that the Multiverse floats on which it emphasizes with how they used the Multiverse Map to emphasize the sheer scale of the Dark Multiverse. Even the Imaginary Axis interview with Scott Snyder described the size difference. So there clearly was a time when the Dark Multiverse was just an infinite dark realm that simply existed as nothing but pure dark matter up until Perpetua sent Alephus down to the forges to create or discard worlds.

If the Multiverse contains all realms up to the Monitor Sphere as well as the two highest planes of existence: Fifth and Sixth Dimension which the Perpetua already states that it is not part of her design which means it isn't tied down to the dimensional superstructure of all three tri-matter realms then clearly the Dark Multiverse encompasses the entirety of the totality of the Multiverse.

Chaos magic did not predate Hecate? The magic given to the Lords of Order and Chaos literally came from Hecate reaching into the Upside Down Man’s realm and bringing his power into the world. After being given this power, some of the magicians tried to bind it for more control, and so they created the first books of magic, and required magic to be accessed via artifacts and spell castings. This half was the Lords of Order. The other half of those magicians didn’t care about rules and wanted to use the magic as it is, without boundaries, and they became the Lords of Chaos.

She reached into the Dark Multiverse to get “Chaos Magic” implies it wasn't hers to begin with. After all, Magic was first and she was the first magical “being” formed from Magic which comes form the Source of All Things as stated by Nabu stating the Otherkinds draw their powers from the Source.

Also genuine question, do you actually think dark matter, positive matter, and anti matter predate the creation of Perpetua’s tripartite multiverse? If so, that’s just... lol.

Genuine question, Kendra literally is using the anology that the “Multiverse” as in the entirety of it floats upon this giant oceanic subconscious realm so much vaster and bigger than the Multiverse. Yet, you claim its less than the Sphere of the Gods? Your logic makes no sense.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I mean, it is just a trash can for broken worlds. Wouldn't it be a bit illogical if this place was even 'more real' than Monitor Sphere?

And, when Kendra talked about the older, subconscious world called the Dark Multiverse on which multiverse floats, couldn't she have actually been talking about the World Forge, which her partner might have confused for a part of it?

I think it seems to fit this description better: it is first dark matter realm and is covered in molten metal, It has been said that this place is the true darkness that Hawkman has been searching for, it is located beneath the Orrerry and at the bottom of the Dark Multiverse, it is where all worlds, dark or otherwise, are forged, it is tied to hopes and fears of people etc.

Anyways is your question answered? I'm not doing back-and-forth with Xearsay since he didn't implement the changes. If it is then I'm moving on.

 

[The_Fiend888]

I think Xearesay's arguments makes more sense. Now that I think about it, I think Tempus Fuginaut said something in one of those dark multiverse one-shots about the Dark Multiverse being a reflection of the (Bright) Multiverse, which further reinforces his point. Maybe i can check it out tomorrow.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think Xearesay's arguments makes more sense. Now that I think about it, I think Tempus Fuginaut said something in one of those dark multiverse one-shots about the Dark Multiverse being a reflection of the (Bright) Multiverse, which further reinforces his point. Maybe i can check it out tomorrow.

He wasn't the one to change it and he's been arguing this for years now. So if you see him as right then obviously that doesn't change why the Dark Multiverse was changed to 1-A. That portion should be answered since I'm the one that made the change and explained it in my CRT.

 

[Xearesay]

The World Forge is contained within the Dark Multiverse as is the worlds. That's literally what inhabits the realm. Yet none of that fills it in its entirety nor was it only created after the Forge or the worlds, which it predates both.

If it predates realities, then it wouldn’t be a multiverse, as a multiverse entails worlds of some sort and this would just be “darkness” without any worlds.

This has anything to do with the Dark Multiverse origin? The Otherplace is stated to be tied to the Darker Multiverse in the same way the Sphere of the Gods is connected to the Light Multiverse as structures within said totality.

Being connected is not the same as being within, and this statement isn’t even talking about some type of physical connection anyway. It’s a connection of belief and imagination. Similarly to how Hecate gave herself shape the moment humanity had its first thought of the impossible, the Upside Down Man did the same thing but for the Dark Multiverse. As in he represents the Collective Unconscious of the dark multiverse similarly to how Hecate does for the positive multiverse.

We know that the Sphere and the Multiverse predates Hecate who predates the Upside Downman. So the Dark Multiverse being called vaster and older than the Multiverse means that it had already existed even if it wasn't named “Dark Multiverse” during that time.

The domain which becomes the Godsphere doesn’t predate Hecate, it is Hecate. I’ve been saying this for a long time and you’ve never addressed it. Circe directly references Hecate as the name given to that bright light of raw magic. Which makes sense, considering that in Witching Hour scans I linked earlier, it’s stated that she shaped herself out of the light, meaning she had to already exist in some capacity. This same thing goes for the Upside Down Man, they both were already there, they just didn’t have any form or shape until beings in the dark/light multiverses first dreamt of the impossible.

The barrier that Hecate created was to separate her from Upside Downman. So the barrier is between the Sphere of the Gods and the Otherplace which both are connected to their larger Multiverse totality. The realm isn't somewhere in the middle of the Dark Multiverse or anything of the sort especially if it does “surround” which would mean it's at the exterior of the Dark Multiverse.

Correction, it’s a barrier made to separate the Collective Unconscious’s that correspond to each multiverse. This is shown and mentioned in one of the Witching Hour scans I already sent you where Wonder Woman finds Hecate’s aspects.

Um, I never claimed it was in the middle of the Dark Multiverse? I’ve always said that the Otherplace encompasses it, and that’s because it’s backed verbatim by a scan I’ve already posted.

Plus, before Alepheus was created. Perpetua already designed the dark matter realm for him to create worlds. That means that the realm which is the Forge which exists within the Dark Multiverse would imply it was there before the creations of worlds. The semantics here is the name “Dark Multiverse” which wasn't established until later, but, obviously refers to that dark realm that existed before and eventually beneath the Multiverse.

If you think the dark realm is what the Dark Multiverse was before it was called then the Dark Multiverse, then that would contradict your earlier claim that the Dark Multiverse predates Perpetua. So are you conceding on that point or something?

I digress, this is still very wrong. The scan I posted earlier with Dream of the Endless pretty much directly acknowledges that the universes which make up the Dark Multiverse are the left overs of the universes created from the World Forge. And this goes back to a statement I made earlier in this post, being there If there’s no worlds or universes that are there, then it’s not really a dark “Multiverse” it’s just darkness. And this explains why Perpetua’s third domain which she made for the World Forge, was called the Dark and not the “Dark Multiverse”. The implication is that it’s the dark Multiverse because it’s a “multiverse” in the dark. If there’s no “Multiverse” then it’s not really a dark multiverse but just darkness.

This same exact error in logic you’re making is also reflected in the analogy you typed somewhere above about how you think Hecate was in the Sphere of Gods before it was called the Sphere of Gods. That domain she represented was called the Sphere of Gods only after Gods and godly realms had manifested there. Meaning the term sphere of gods refers to that aspect of the domain, where there’s gods. However, prior to the Gods it was just the Collective Unconscious as supported by her barrier being there. And the Collective Unconscious still exists, it just simply underlies that Sphere of Gods in that domain.

If the Multiverse contains all realms up to the Monitor Sphere as well as the two highest planes of existence: Fifth and Sixth Dimension which the Perpetua already states that it is not part of her design which means it isn't tied down to the dimensional superstructure of all three tri-matter realms then clearly the Dark Multiverse encompasses the entirety of the totality of the Multiverse.

Once again you’re misinterpreting Perpetua’s statement. When she states it’s not a part of the design, she’s not speaking about where it exists but rather if it was meant to exist. Her initial design did not intend for a multiverse to sit in the Dark with the World Forge, as that’s a byproduct of Barbatos defying the World Forger.

She reached into the Dark Multiverse to get “Chaos Magic” implies it wasn't hers to begin with. After all, Magic was first and she was the first magical “being” formed from Magic which comes form the Source of All Things as stated by Nabu stating the Otherkinds draw their powers from the Source.

Right, but we’re not talking about whether it was hers, we’re talking about whether it predates her or not. Your claim is that it predates her, but if it’s of the Upside Down Man then it clearly doesn’t since he’s her twin.

Genuine question, Kendra literally is using the anology that the “Multiverse” as in the entirety of it floats upon this giant oceanic subconscious realm so much vaster and bigger than the Multiverse. Yet, you claim its less than the Sphere of the Gods? Your logic makes no sense.

She wasn’t referring to the whole map, she was just talking about how it contains more universes. This directly acknowledged in the scan you posted, where she starts off claiming

Hawkgirl - “This is a map of our multiverse. Not just our universe but all the universes made of matter and anti matter in existence. We know of fifty two, we believe it to be a set number but the energy coming through Nth metal, Carter(Hawkman) couldn’t trace to any know universe on the map.”

So Multiverse in the context of her statement is clearly referring to the 52 universes in the Orrery.

This leaves us with an ordering of the
Sphere of the Gods > tripartite multiverse > Dark Multiverse > positive matter and Anti matter Multiverse. This is obviously an oversimplification that leaves out some stuff in between but it’s not really relevant to the point I’m making m.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I changed my mind. I guess I will do a back-and-forth.

If it predates realities, then it wouldn’t be a multiverse, as a multiverse entails worlds of some sort and this would just be “darkness” without any worlds.

That's semantic. The Dark Multiverse even before being named would still be the same thing.

Being connected is not the same as being within, and this statement isn’t even talking about some type of physical connection anyway. It’s a connection of belief and imagination. Similarly to how Hecate gave herself shape the moment humanity had its first thought of the impossible, the Upside Down Man did the same thing but for the Dark Multiverse. As in he represents the Collective Unconscious of the dark multiverse similarly to how Hecate does for the positive multiverse.

The Multiverse had already existed prior to Hecate as well as the domain she was born in. The same goes for the Dark Multiverse which is literally said in the scan to have existed as the Upside Downman shaped some sort of void into the Oterplace and we know that it was also tied to the Dark Multiverse. You're making it sound like the Upside Downman realm is the entirety of the Dark Multiverse or had something to do with the Dark Multiverse but it doesn't.

The domain which becomes the Godsphere doesn’t predate Hecate, it is Hecate. I’ve been saying this for a long time and you’ve never addressed it. Circe directly references Hecate as the name given to that bright light of raw magic. Which makes sense, considering that in Witching Hour scans I linked earlier, it’s stated that she shaped herself out of the light, meaning she had to already exist in some capacity. This same thing goes for the Upside Down Man, they both were already there, they just didn’t have any form or shape until beings in the dark/light multiverses first dreamt of the impossible.

She is not the Sphere of the Gods which is evidently made clear after her death. You ignore the the statement that she was the “first magical being” in the domain and also magic itself existed without her in the beginning. They both “weren't already there” as they were born from something which Hecate was born from the raw potential of magic surrounding the new forming Multiverse and Upside Downman was born of Hecate’s disgust of herself. She, herself, throughout the entirety of Witching Hour stated that she hated what “magic” became which is more evident that she isn't the Sphere, Magic, or the Multiverse. She's just what the scan said “the first magical being.”

Correction, it’s a barrier made to separate the Collective Unconscious’s that correspond to each multiverse. This is shown and mentioned in one of the Witching Hour scans I already sent you where Wonder Woman finds Hecate’s aspects.

No, that wasn't said.

Um, I never claimed it was in the middle of the Dark Multiverse? I’ve always said that the Otherplace encompasses it, and that’s because it’s backed verbatim by a scan I’ve already posted.

I said if the Otherplace surrounds the Dark Multiverse then obviously it exists at its edge rather than say something like the “center.” I didn't claim you said it existed at the center.

If you think the dark realm is what the Dark Multiverse was before it was called then the Dark Multiverse, then that would contradict your earlier claim that the Dark Multiverse predates Perpetua. So are you conceding on that point or something?

The Dark Multiverse wasn't created by Perpetua. This is made obvious since her “Multiverse” was created under the shape of the three realms of matter, but the Dark Multiverse itself is older than her Creation. So, obviously, it isn’t part of the dimensional superstructure.

I digress, this is still very wrong. The scan I posted earlier with Dream of the Endless pretty much directly acknowledges that the universes which make up the Dark Multiverse are the left overs of the universes created from the World Forge. And this goes back to a statement I made earlier in this post, being there If there’s no worlds or universes that are there, then it’s not really a dark “Multiverse” it’s just darkness. And this explains why Perpetua’s third domain which she made for the World Forge, was called the Dark and not the “Dark Multiverse”. The implication is that it’s the dark Multiverse because it’s a “multiverse” in the dark. If there’s no “Multiverse” then it’s not really a dark multiverse but just darkness.

Perpetua made one of the realms filled with dark matter as part of the design that makes up the majority of the Multiverse. The Dark Multiverse would have already existed then since she never claimed to have made dark matter or the Dark Multiverse.

Again, your augmentation is heavily semantical. The Dark Multiverse being called that because of the dark worlds has no meaning to its origin. Of course its called the Dark Multiverse at some point which is just a name given and it didn't change anything about it since all that really changed prior to it being named was that it was filled with worlds as opposed to being just empty.

This same exact error in logic you’re making is also reflected in the analogy you typed somewhere above about how you think Hecate was in the Sphere of Gods before it was called the Sphere of Gods. That domain she represented was called the Sphere of Gods only after Gods and godly realms had manifested there. Meaning the term sphere of gods refers to that aspect of the domain, where there’s gods. However, prior to the Gods it was just the Collective Unconscious as supported by her barrier being there. And the Collective Unconscious still exists, it just simply underlies that Sphere of Gods in that domain.

Like the Dark Multiverse example just because something was named later doesn't change that it was there. You could easily connect this point together.

Also, the Collective Unconscious existed because of humans collective thoughts since Hecate made it her domain, it wasn't naturally hers, to begin with. This is made obvious because magic and the Collective Unconscious continue to exist without her. Which it was said to be “once her domain” which meant she made it hers as oppose to no actual scans saying she created it.

Once again you’re misinterpreting Perpetua’s statement. When she states it’s not a part of the design, she’s not speaking about where it exists but rather if it was meant to exist. Her initial design did not intend for a multiverse to sit in the Dark with the World Forge, as that’s a byproduct of Barbatos defying the World Forger.

Perpetua’s statement literally doesn't say that the Dark Multiverse would have been made by her either. It wasn't part of the natural order since she shaped the dark matter realm from the Dark Multiverse which is where all that potential of the worlds come from. She never admitted to creating it thus it was there prior to the Multiverse. You lack the comprehension to understand context clues.

Right, but we’re not talking about whether it was hers, we’re talking about whether it predates her or not. Your claim is that it predates her, but if it’s of the Upside Down Man then it clearly doesn’t since he’s her twin.

Predate Perpetua? I never claimed that, I said it existed without her influence and that she didn't create it. Nice, red herring.

She wasn’t referring to the whole map, she was just talking about how it contains more universes. This directly acknowledged in the scan you posted, where she starts off claiming

The map of the Multiverse which we see in its entirety was shown to be dwarfed by the Dark Multiverse.

Hawkgirl - “This is a map of our multiverse. Not just our universe but all the universes made of matter and anti matter in existence. We know of fifty two, we believe it to be a set number but the energy coming through Nth metal, Carter(Hawkman) couldn’t trace to any know universe on the map.”

So Multiverse in the context of her statement is clearly referring to the 52 universes in the Orrery.

This leaves us with an ordering of the
Sphere of the Gods > tripartite multiverse > Dark Multiverse > positive matter and Anti matter Multiverse. This is obviously an oversimplification that leaves out some stuff in between but it’s not really relevant to the point I’m making m.

Nope, from what the scan showed. The Dark Multiverse > Totality of the Multiverse > Sixth Dimension > Fifth Dimension > Monitor Sphere > Limbo > Sphere of the Gods > The Orrery.

 

[Xearesay]

That's semantic. The Dark Multiverse even before being named would still be the same thing.

Ok and you’re also being semantic? You’re taking the word multiverse and stretching it to include its own potential prior to actually existing. It’s like saying a land without trees is actually a forest, it just hasn’t been named that yet. Or like calling a blank page a story because it can become one. This is a complete error in logic. If there’s no universes there yet, then there is no multiverse, as potential doesn’t have existence, it’s just potential.

You're making it sound like the Upside Downman realm is the entirety of the Dark Multiverse or had something to do with the Dark Multiverse but it doesn't.

Literally no one said that. I claimed it encompasses the Dark Multiverse, gave a statement from Nabu that repeats my claim verbatim as my evidence, and you’ve been arguing in a circle since trying to tell me that I’m wrong.

She is not the Sphere of the Gods which is evidently made clear after her death. You ignore the the statement that she was the “first magical being” in the domain and also magic itself existed without her in the beginning. They both “weren't already there” as they were born from something which Hecate was born from the raw potential of magic surrounding the new forming Multiverse and Upside Downman was born of Hecate’s disgust of herself. She, herself, throughout the entirety of Witching Hour stated that she hated what “magic” became which is more evident that she isn't the Sphere, Magic, or the Multiverse. She's just what the scan said “the first magical being.”

Magics identity as Hecate died, but the magic that she represents was stripped of her by Wonder Woman and allowed to become something new. it was then redistributed back into reality.

I didn’t ignore the statement. All I’ve done is tell you that she shaped herself out of the light, meaning she had to exist in some capacity before even becoming the first magical being. And this is backed up completely by Circes statement that Hecate was the original light of possibility and raw state of magic. You’ve disagreed with this but you haven’t actually engaged in the evidence I’m giving support. Instead you’ve just been bringing up out of context moments from the story as a way to point out some type of contradiction that isn’t really there.

No, that wasn't said.

I literally gave you the scan for it a few comments ago?

Wonder Woman found Hecate’s barrier in the Collective Unconscious, with Hecate’s aspects on the other side. And they tell her that they’ve been trapped in the primordial darkness, meaning the barrier Hecate made separates the Great Darkness from the Collective Unconscious that corresponds to the positive matter multiverse.

The Dark Multiverse wasn't created by Perpetua. This is made obvious since her “Multiverse” was created under the shape of the three realms of matter, but the Dark Multiverse itself is older than her Creation. So, obviously, it isn’t part of the dimensional superstructure.

Correct it was created by Barbatos and the World Forger. What I said is that Perpetua made the domain where the World Forge and the Dark Multiverse reside. This is supported by Perpetua’s statement that you conveniently haven’t linked, but I found it myself anyway.

Perpetua - “The Dark Multiverse is a wrong thing. It was never meant to propagate with broken, twisted worlds. It is not a part of my plan.”

So once again, it’s not a matter where it exist within her “design”, as she actually doesn’t even use that word. It’s about whether she planned for it to exist.

The Dark Multiverse is older than the positive matter multiverse, however it is not outside of Perpetua’s tripartite Multiverse. It’s literally within the Darkness which she acknowledges, and the worlds are literally made by the World Forger.

Again, your augmentation is heavily semantical. The Dark Multiverse being called that because of the dark worlds has no meaning to its origin. Of course its called the Dark Multiverse at some point which is just a name given and it didn't change anything about it since all that really changed prior to it being named was that it was filled with worlds as opposed to being just empty.

Once again, so are you. Your entire argument hinders on stretching the term multiverse to represent that it quite literally does not. Like I said before, what you’re doing is the same as if someone called a plot of empty land a forrest because there’s the potential for a forest to be there. Potential doesn’t exist and a multiverse is not some eternal container that exists regardless of its content. It’s a collection of worlds and dimensions. If there’s no universes that exist, then it’s not a multiverse.

Like the Dark Multiverse example just because something was named later doesn't change that it was there. You could easily connect this point together.

That’s not my argument. My argument is that the Dark Multiverse is a collection of broken universes, and the domain prior to their being universes is not the dark multiverse.

Also, the Collective Unconscious existed because of humans collective thoughts since Hecate made it her domain, it wasn't naturally hers, to begin with. This is made obvious because magic and the Collective Unconscious continue to exist without her. Which it was said to be “once her domain” which meant she made it hers as oppose to no actual scans saying she created it.

I’m not arguing about who presumed ownership of the Collective Unconscious. I’m saying that Hecate is the Collective Unconscious, as it’s supported directly by Hecate herself, and Circe multiple times.

Magic still exists because Wonder Woman absorbed all of Hecate’s power and allowed it to become something new. She was allowed to do this because Hecate’s aspects gave her the power to strip Hecate’s power from her, so Hecate could die and magic could become something new. This is within one of the scans I sent you a couple comments ago.

Predate Perpetua? I never claimed that, I said it existed without her influence and that she didn't create it. Nice, red herring.

I’m talking about Hecate as that’s who you claimed chaos magic predated.

The map of the Multiverse which we see in its entirety was shown to be dwarfed by the Dark Multiverse.

Kendra was referring to specifically the positive matter multiverse. I’ve said this probably 3 times already, are you gonna address my argument or no?

The Dark Multiverse > Totality of the Multiverse > Sixth Dimension > Fifth Dimension > Monitor Sphere > Limbo > Sphere of the Gods > The Orrery.

I disagree, but I’d like to remain focused on the topic of the Dark Multiverse specifically.

 

[Xearesay]

Anyway, I’m pretty sure I’ve said everything I need to say and I can tell you’re just gonna reply with a regurgitation of your previous responses, so I’m gonna take my exit from this conversation. However, just know that I do plan to revise this verse, and I plan to do it the proper way, meaning I’ll have a proper blog that actually details the depth of DC’s cosmology along with the tiers. And I’ll actually remake the character profiles and not just leave them with a simple tier change and a bunch of outdated/unsupported justifications, like you did.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Ok and you’re also being semantic? You’re taking the word multiverse and stretching it to include its own potential prior to actually existing. It’s like saying a land without trees is actually a forest, it just hasn’t been named that yet. Or like calling a blank page a story because it can become one. This is a complete error in logic. If there’s no universes there yet, then there is no multiverse, as potential doesn’t have existence, it’s just potential.

Like how Perpetua already called her creation, a “Multiverse” prior to being filled with life and worlds? Yeah, the name came later but it isn't what makes the Dark Multiverse especially when you consider adding worlds doesn't change the nature of it being a realm filled with dark matter that sits underneath Creation.

Literally no one said that. I claimed it encompasses the Dark Multiverse, gave a statement from Nabu that repeats my claim verbatim as my evidence, and you’ve been arguing in a circle since trying to tell me that I’m wrong.

“You’re making it sound like-” should answer that you evidently don't distugish your point for the Otherplace being what in relation to the Dark Multiverse? I assume your saying that it is due to you never specifying anything about it.

Magics identity as Hecate died, but the magic that she represents was stripped of her by Wonder Woman and allowed to become something new. it was then redistributed back into reality.

I didn’t ignore the statement. All I’ve done is tell you that she shaped herself out of the light, meaning she had to exist in some capacity before even becoming the first magical being. And this is backed up completely by Circes statement that Hecate was the original light of possibility and raw state of magic. You’ve disagreed with this but you haven’t actually engaged in the evidence I’m giving support. Instead you’ve just been bringing up out of context moments from the story as a way to point out some type of contradiction that isn’t really there.

Except the scans answer to your own stance. The scan themselves do not say “Hecate is magic” which the scan only prefaces that her story began with magic and for the longest time it was her story. We've already seen that Magic already existed before she did.

Also, Circe also replacing Hecate later in that scan said she wouldn't be fully “magic” itself until she combines herself with Eclipso, which also doesn't account for the existence of other magical beings’ external to her includes the Otherkind. Also, the scan says she is the raw state of magic which refers to magic before being tainted by others and this is made clear when it was told Hecate had hated “what magic has now become” again separating her existence from magic.

I literally gave you the scan for it a few comments ago?

Wonder Woman found Hecate’s barrier in the Collective Unconscious, with Hecate’s aspects on the other side. And they tell her that they’ve been trapped in the primordial darkness, meaning the barrier Hecate made separates the Great Darkness from the Collective Unconscious that corresponds to the positive matter multiverse.

In the topic of the Dark Multiverse being barred off from the Collective Unconcious was what you needed to prove, which you haven't.

If the Collective Unconscious sits at the crest of the Sphere of the Gods then my statement that the barrier separates the Otherkind from the realms of possibilities hasn't been yet addressed since by your own admission it has nothing to due with the Dark Multiverse. So, it still exists outside the totality of Creation entirely.

Correct it was created by Barbatos and the World Forger. What I said is that Perpetua made the domain where the World Forge and the Dark Multiverse reside. This is supported by Perpetua’s statement that you conveniently haven’t linked, but I found it myself anyway.

Perpetua - “The Dark Multiverse is a wrong thing. It was never meant to propagate with broken, twisted worlds. It is not a part of my plan.”

So once again, it’s not a matter where it exist within her “design”, as she actually doesn’t even use that word. It’s about whether she planned for it to exist.

The Dark Multiverse already existed. Where did you think she took “dark matter” from? What she was saying it that it being corrupted with worlds wasn't part of her “design.”

The Dark Multiverse is older than the positive matter multiverse, however it is not outside of Perpetua’s tripartite Multiverse. It’s literally within the Darkness which she acknowledges, and the worlds are literally made by the World Forger.

The worlds occupy the Dark Multiverse, it is not the Dark Multiverse itself.

Once again, so are you. Your entire argument hinders on stretching the term multiverse to represent that it quite literally does not. Like I said before, what you’re doing is the same as if someone called a plot of empty land a forrest because there’s the potential for a forest to be there. Potential doesn’t exist and a multiverse is not some eternal container that exists regardless of its content. It’s a collection of worlds and dimensions. If there’s no universes that exist, then it’s not a multiverse.

A Multiverse is a cosmological term. So it being “named” the Dark Multiverse doesn't mean it didn't exist prior to the worlds. Your forest comparsion is quite bland since the “land” before the tree is still the land with the trees.

That’s not my argument. My argument is that the Dark Multiverse is a collection of broken universes, and the domain prior to their being universes is not the dark multiverse.

What? The worlds fill the Dark Multiverse, but it was already a “darker Multiverse” since the term was treated as the “space” of dark matter. Perpetua has used “Multiverse” before her creation was filled with worlds.

I’m not arguing about who presumed ownership of the Collective Unconscious. I’m saying that Hecate is the Collective Unconscious, as it’s supported directly by Hecate herself, and Circe multiple times.

No, she made it her domain, she is not the domain itself hence why it continues to exist without her. That's simple logic.

Magic still exists because Wonder Woman absorbed all of Hecate’s power and allowed it to become something new. She was allowed to do this because Hecate’s aspects gave her the power to strip Hecate’s power from her, so Hecate could die and magic could become something new. This is within one of the scans I sent you a couple comments ago.


I’m talking about Hecate as that’s who you claimed chaos magic predated.

I clearly said “Chaos Magic existed external to her” not predate her, which could honestly be true.

Also, Hecate needed to control magic and the pillars that upheld it. If she was “magic” itself then nothing of the use of magic shouldn't escape her.

Kendra was referring to specifically the positive matter multiverse. I’ve said this probably 3 times already, are you gonna address my argument or no?

No? She said that there were nightmares worlds that occupy the Dark Multiverse in the same way we have worlds in the Orrery in the Multiverse, however, it doesn't fill it in its entirety. Your point is that the worlds make what we can describe as a “Dark Multiverse,” but in precisely how you also said that is also not what it is contingent on. The Dark Multiverse exists as it always was prior to the worlds, there's no discrepancy there.

I disagree, but I’d like to remain focused on the topic of the Dark Multiverse specifically.

Which you hardly focused on.

Anyway, I’m pretty sure I’ve said everything I need to say and I can tell you’re just gonna reply with a regurgitation of your previous responses, so I’m gonna take my exit from this conversation. However, just know that I do plan to revise this verse, and I plan to do it the proper way, meaning I’ll have a proper blog that actually details the depth of DC’s cosmology along with the tiers. And I’ll actually remake the character profiles and not just leave them with a simple tier change and a bunch of outdated/unsupported justifications, like you did.

A shot in the dark? You don't have a good track record especially when it comes to Hecate, Upside Downman, and anything Morrison related.

 

[The_Fiend888]

Anyways is your question answered? I'm not doing back-and-forth with Xearsay since he didn't implement the changes. If it is then I'm moving on.

He wasn't the one to change it and he's been arguing this for years now. So if you see him as right then obviously that doesn't change why the Dark Multiverse was changed to 1-A. That portion should be answered since I'm the one that made the change and explained it in my CRT.

Sorry, I didn't see your question, I'm sure it sounded a bit rude when I wrote that as a reply. Also yes, after all I only opened this question to get the answer Multiverse is in 1-A currently, not to change anything. I just wanted to express my opinion on this discussion.

, I’m pretty sure I’ve said everything I need to say and I can tell you’re just gonna reply with a regurgitation of your previous responses, so I’m gonna take my exit from this conversation. However, just know that I do plan to revise this verse, and I plan to do it the proper way, meaning I’ll have a proper blog that actually details the depth of DC’s cosmology along with the tiers. And I’ll actually remake the character profiles and not just leave them with a simple tier change and a bunch of outdated/unsupported justifications, like you did.

Yeah, as you two said, since this discussion is not going anywhere and this is just a question thread, we can leave it for a later time. Also, besides the scan I mentioned, I found a few more regarding the the nature of the Dark Multiverse. I can send them to you to help with this blog if you'd like.

 

[Xearesay]

Sorry, I didn't see your question, I'm sure it sounded a bit rude when I wrote that as a reply. Also yes, after all I only opened this question to get the answer Multiverse is in 1-A currently, not to change anything. I just wanted to express my opinion on this discussion.

Yeah, as you two said, since this discussion is not going anywhere and this is just a question thread, we can leave it for a later time. Also, besides the scan I mentioned, I found a few more regarding the the nature of the Dark Multiverse. I can send them to you to help with this blog if you'd like.

Sure, it would be much appreciated.