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Weaponry in Pokemon World calculations?

User_A_98732165489

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Attempt to calculate characteristics of firearms in Pokemon universe.

[https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Weaponry_in_the_Pokémon_world] While firearms in Pokemon universe are rarely seen, they do exist. But cases when someone was actually shot and hurt by one are practically non-existent (most of the time, it's either misses, threatened-but-not-used or not-used-at-all); cases when someone is scared of a weapon or hit but not hurt by it may indirectly be used to measure power of weaponry.

Other notable incident examples, not used in this calculation:
  • EP 019 Tentacool & Tentacruel, Nastina's large arsenal of weaponry. Tentacruel in question is absurdly big and tough, mostly unharmed by fire. Non-standard Pokemon, on which we have no data. Hard-to-use for calculations.
  • EP 052 Princess vs. Princess. Meowth held a tommy-gun. Didn't fire it at anyone. Not sure if he was planning to use it (in which case it could be compared to Meowth's attack potency) or if he just showing off (in which case it's unusable for calculations).
  • Cases where a gun was pointed at Human are also too shaky - both due to "threat-but-not-shot" and because durability of Pokemon universe humans is hard to calculate.
  • Not-used-at-all don't count.
  • Misses and threatened-but-not-used only indirectly useful, if the one who's threatened or attacked was scared of the weapon (which could indicate that the character could be damaged by the weapon, though it's not 100% sure).

So, for example what we can actually use: in EP054 "The Case of the K-9 Caper!", Ash's Pikachu was scared of Colt M1911 pointed in his direction. This does mean that M1911 can hurt Ash's Pikachu - since Pokemon tend to ignore or scoff at things too weak to harm them.

So, we take Pikachu (Anime) profile with "Original Series-Best Wishes Series" key [https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Pikachu_(Anime)] and real M1911 profile [https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/M1911], and compare them. Real M1911 has Street Level shots (472 joules - or 1.12810707457e-16 Gigatons - at best), and Pikachu (Anime) has Large Mountain level+ durability. Lower border of Large Mountain Level is 4.184e+19 Joules (1 Gigaton), upper border is 1.79912e+20 Joules (4.3 Gigatons), and "+" means the upper half of the limit range. The middle-point is 1.10876e+20 Joules (2.65 Gigatons). Real M1911 couldn't do the job, so Pokemon universe M1911 is buffed in comparison to IRL one.

Therefore i assume that firearms in Pokemon universe are stronger than IRL, since Pokemon firearms can harm Pokemon, therefore scaling off Pokemon durability; Pokemon universe firearms would also likely have higher speed than IRL, since Pokemon are absurdly fast, and hitting them requires extremely fast projectiles, at least as fast as Pokemon themselves. Most Pokemon move at FTL speeds, so in order to hit them, bullets would also have to move at FTL speeds. This also somewhat justifies the increased power from in-universe logical perspective (faster speed = stronger projectiles), but not from calculation perspective (impacts at FTL speeds can't be plugged into energy formulas, as that would result in imaginary numbers).

I also assume that power and speed of firearms and other "real" weapons in comparison to one another stays the same (e.g. carbine is stronger than pistol, rifle is stronger than carbine, pistol is stronger than melee weapons, missile launcher is stronger than anti-material rifle, etc).

Assuming that firearms just get proportionally stronger... To know how much the power of M1911 is multiplied, we divide 1.10876e+20 Joules by 472 Joules and get power multiplier of 2.3490677966101696e+17 times. Therefore, in order for M1911 to harm Ash's Pikachu, M1911's power must be multiplied at least 2.3490677966101696e+17 times. This is at FTL speed, since bullet must go that fast to match Ash Pikachu's speed.

Again, i assume that power and speed of firearms and other "real" weapons in comparison to one another remains the same, so all other firearms also power-scale from M1911. So for example, real M16 has over 1800 Joules (Street Level), and real Heckler & Koch G3 has over 3500 Joules (Street Level) - so with same 2.3490677966101696e+17 times multiplier, their Pokemon counterparts would have 4.228322033898305e+20 Joules (101.0593220339 Gigatons, Large Island level) and 8.221737288135593e+20 Joules (196.5042372881 Gigatons, Large Island Level) respectively. Real AT4 rocket launcher has at least Wall Level (at least 15 Kilojoules), so it's Pokemon universe counterpart with same multiplier would have at least 842.1610169491504 Gigatons (Large Island+ Level). These three weapon's projectiles in Pokemon universe moving at FTL speed, since they're faster than M1911 bullets.

Then it's just the time to count firearm-wielding Humans in Pokemon universe and add corresponding firearms to their Optional Equipment (since Pokemon universe humans wield firearms too rarely to put them in Standard Equipment).

Finally, since modern armor (e.g. ballistic vests) also likely gets proportionately multiplied to match the firearms - and since armored humans would obviously be more durable than unarmored humans - armored Humans in Pokemon universe would have higher Durability (e.g. Large Mountain+ for pistol-proof vests, Large Island level for rifle-proof vests). For example, IRL pistol-proof helmet and IRL rifle-proof ballistic vest would normally give Street Level and Street Level protection respectively, but their Pokemon counterparts would give Large Mountain+ and Large Island Level protection respectively. This doesn't come up anywhere (yet?) in calculations, since most humans in Pokemon universe don't wear armor, and those that wear are usually not seen tanking hits (so no Feats to calculate).

Numbers are rather ridiculous. But Pokemon universe features things more ridiculous still, so all this is likely generally in-line with setting level (i.e. ridiculous-ness of my calculations likely didn't reach critical mass).

Is this calculation correct? If not, what i did wrong and what could be improved or fixed? If yes, do you accept it?

P.S. See second weaponry calculation variant there [https://vsbattles.com/threads/weaponry-in-pokemon-world-calculations-part-2.184767/].

P.S. See third weaponry calculation variant there [https://vsbattles.com/threads/weaponry-in-pokemon-world-calculations-part-3.185453/].
 
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No...
I can't say we can scale regular weaponry in the Pokemon world to Tier 7-6 ranges. The verse is widely inconsistent and the actual use of realistic firearms are a very dated (and removed) concept in the verse.
 
Jinx666, to be fair, i myself is also confused with numbers i just calculated (especially since i'm new there). That's why i'm asking if my calculations are correct or not.

"The verse is widely inconsistent and the actual use of realistic firearms are a very dated (and removed) concept in the verse.". Just because something is dated or removed, doesn't mean that it's unusable - as we have many profiles for dated things, and while removed it was a thing back in the day so it could still be calculated. Being inconsistent however is a great hurdle.

The "Pokemon vs Guns", "Pokemon vs Armed Humans" and "Pokemon vs Humans In General" questions are somewhat popular nowadays. In such cases, nobody can get to any sort of consensus - because of both Pokemon, in-universe Humans and in-universe weapons having inconsistent characteristics (e.g. Pokemon Anime Humans are tougher than Pokemon Manga Humans).

Like, i remember a time Team Rocket grunt killed a Marowak with telescopic baton, or when some in-universe legendary guy killed Pokemon with sword until he got told to stop. So, swords and clubs in hands of Humans can damage Pokemon. IRL Katana is Street Level damage; we have no profile for IRL telescopic baton (it's weaker/flimsier than Baseball Bat and Crowbar, but stronger than Millwall Brick); even a handgun is stronger than swords and clubs. If we powerscale Pokemon firearms damage off Katana, they'll get slightly stronger or same-ish as my above calculation - and if we powerscale them off a telescopic baton, then firearms damage will be even greater than what i calculated above.
 
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I mean i wouldn't know the calc side of things to whatever this wiki's standards are but just...common sense can also be applied when saying that regular weaponry used from early-Pokemon arent tiered to Pokemon.

Pokemon is just inconsistent (and this wiki isn't caught up with the times on it personally, people have been forced to mix canons) and they dont care about powerscaling implications.
 
"common sense can also be applied when saying that regular weaponry used from early-Pokemon arent tiered to Pokemon." Common Sense doesn't really apply to Pokemon universe. It has absurd things, like Humans surviving being blasted off horizon, Team Rocket building mechs despite being supposedly poor, absurd Pokemon abilities, Anime ignoring the games rules, and so on and so forth. Trying to compare Pokemon, Humans and "real" weapons to each-other is a mess. Rather, Pokemon universe operates at a sort of "uncommon sense" and rule of cool/funny.

"Pokemon is just inconsistent (and this wiki isn't caught up with the times on it personally, people have been forced to mix canons) and they dont care about powerscaling implications." But despite it's inconsistency, it's still possible to calculate it, albeit that's very hard.
 
Yeah, and those are direct feats showing to the humans and slapstick nature of the verse

We're not applying that to the old showings of real fire-arms. Those arent the cool/funny parts.
 
"Yeah, and those are direct feats showing to the humans and slapstick nature of the verse. We're not applying that to the old showings of real fire-arms. Those arent the cool/funny parts." The problem is, we can't be sure which parts/scenes are jokes/hyperbolas, and which are "serious". Real firearms may count as "cool" depending on your opinion (unless they're aimed at you, obviously), but "funny" they aren't - though that doesn't mean that they can't be calculated at all, the inconsistency and lack of feats screws things up.
 
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We can...the fact that Pokemon literally doesnt use them anymore and that theyre a thing of the past, with episodes even being banned including them.

Idk if this is serious atp but i dont think this is gonna gain traction
 
"We can...the fact that Pokemon literally doesnt use them anymore and that theyre a thing of the past, with episodes even being banned including them. Idk if this is serious atp but i dont think this is gonna gain traction" Well, if it being "thing of a past" is so important, that could be it's own key or continuity or whatever? Just because it's banned, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or isn't canon. And we don't have other official cases, so we have what we have. If you found a better case in-canon (e.g. someone gets hit with firearm and takes damage), tell me. But yeah, IDK if this would be further analyzed.

Inconsistency is basically multiplied by lack of official feats. "Pokemon hits Pokemon" is OK-ish, "Human hits Human" is very obvious. Problems start on "Pokemon hits Human", "Human hits Pokemon", "Technological Weapon hits Pokemon" and "Pokemon hits Technological Armor" questions - those are logical and interesting enough to talk about, but completely unexplained.

There were cases of fights with muchas and such, but those don't count as their characteristics can't be easily compared to real equivalents, and even then mechs tend to miss. Actual weapons/armor, or things comparable to them (e.g. futuristic gun which shoots metal bullets at supersonic speeds or something like that), are completely unexplained. And there's no futuristic weaponry/armor either (e.g. power armor, or energy weapons, or some atypical kinetic weapons like railguns).

That despite the fact, that using firearms and armor could be logical in-universe in many cases. Like, trusted Howa rifle and PASGT armor could really help in traversing areas filled with aggressive Pokemon and villainous Team members (guns and Pokemon aren't mutually exclusive). Or that there are situations where Trainer is separated from their Pokemon, and must do something on his own. And that Pokemon can attack Trainers if they want - so using weapons/armor could both deter enemy Pokemon and be used for self-defence. And weapons/armor could add a sense of scale, something series lacks. Also Pokemon universe police is shown as being rather incompetent, not doing anything with serious villains (they only go for 10-year-olds and incompetent low-level grunts) - and considering Japan's gun laws, a gunman walking around with military-level warger and smuggler who sold him the wargear would both obviously fall into "serious villain" category - which, according to how Pokemon universe police works, would fall into "don't bother" category ("Hey, that guy looks tough! Let's arrest 3 Team Rocket grunts instead."), therefore effectively allowing Pokemon universe character to buy military-level gear ("It's not illegal, as long as nobody complains and you don't bother 10-year-olds-saving-the-world-again.").

Besides, again. If you say that my calculations are wrong - then explain why they are wrong and exactly what is wrong? So i could fix that and get better numbers. You can't just say that "it's wrong" without any sort of argument. I remind you: if you seen any case when in Pokemon universe a Pokemon was damaged by firearm or considered the idea of being damaged by firearm (e.g. scared, dodging, running away, etc), then say it and put it there.

P.S. i was originally planning to make calculations for Japanese guns, for authenticity sake (most Pokemon regions are based off Japan - so obviously, weaponry should be japanese, right?). But then i dropped that idea. Mostly because we don't have profiles for japanese guns. Second, is that Pokemon has glaring mistakes about what weapons would be common where (e.g. Colt M1911, Thompson SMG or M1 Carbine are strange, but OK due to massive presence of USA in Japan during WW2; but French MAS-36, German MP-40, American Colt Single-Action Revolver are completely out of place, about as out-of-place as AK-47 is in modern USA army; the actually logical choices would be Nambu variant, Type 100 SMG, Howa Type 64 Battle Rifle, Arisaka variant, Beretta Model 38/43 SMG lend-leased, and Type 26 Revolver). So i instead decided to just use whatever weapons have their profiles and are familiar enough to me and average VS Battles user.
 
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I already said idk about the validity of the calculations, its just the logic of it being wrong on something thats outdated and banned in the series. And its kinda obvious why, so idk what this is meant to show
(yes, that means that Pokemon do not want to use or associate their product with real guns anymore, so its pulled from canon and becomes a non factor)

Not replying any further
 
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SUMMARY:
  • Pokemon Universe's power multiplier of guns and other technological weapons: 2.3490677966101696e+17 Times (via comparison between real Colt M1911 and Ash Pikachu's durability). Weapon's power and speed remains proportional to one another (e.g. rifle is stronger and faster than pistol, etc), unless explicitly noted otherwise in-universe.
  • Pokemon Universe's bullets travel at FTL speed due to being able to hit Pokemon.
  • Pokemon Universe's Colt M1911: Large Mountain level+ (at least same as Ash's Pikachu), FTL attack speed.
  • Pokemon Universe's M16: at least Large Island Level (4.228322033898305e+20 Joules, 101.0593220339 Gigatons), FTL attack speed.
  • Pokemon Universe's Heckler & Koch G3: at least Large Island Level (8.221737288135593e+20 Joules, 196.5042372881 Gigatons), FTL attack speed.
  • Pokemon Universe's AT4 rocket launcher: at least Large Island+ Level (842.1610169491504 Gigatons), FTL attack speed.
 
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LandonTheGuy, well, it did scale off Pokemon durability - and a rather tough Pokemon at that. Since if Character A can deal meaningful damage to Character B, then Character A's Attack Power must be at least as high as Character B's durability.

This also did match with another method of chained calculations [https://vsbattles.com/threads/weaponry-in-pokemon-world-calculations-part-2.184767/].

My calculations then went into 2 separate directions:
 
User_A_98732165489 said:
LandonTheGuy, well, it did scale off Pokemon durability - and a rather tough Pokemon at that. Since if Character A can deal meaningful damage to Character B, then Character A's Attack Power must be at least as high as Character B's durability.

This also did match with another method of chained calculations [https://vsbattles.com/threads/weaponry-in-pokemon-world-calculations-part-2.184767/].

My calculations then went into 2 separate directions:
Click to expand...
i do not belive this schould be treated as a calc discussion thread, but rather a ctr (content revision) that's what usually it's used on vsbw to change some aspect of a verse
 
Jinx666 said:
I already said idk about the validity of the calculations, its just the logic of it being wrong on something thats outdated and banned in the series. And its kinda obvious why, so idk what this is meant to show
(yes, that means that Pokemon do not want to use or associate their product with real guns anymore, so its pulled from canon and becomes a non factor)

Not replying any further
Click to expand...
also he got a point there
 
"i do not belive this schould be treated as a calc discussion thread, but rather a ctr (content revision) that's what usually it's used on vsbw to change some aspect of a verse" - in that case, calc discussions are for what purpose? as if this is not a calculation? so should i write calcs to content revision thread instead?

"also he got a point there" - that's why the second and third parts have calculations for stun baton - because batons and unarmed strikes aren't banned.
 
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it should be treated as a ctr on my opinion, calc discussion group is when (for example) u got a feat that it could be treated in different interations.
 
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