Warhammer Fantasy: High 6-C Reckoning

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah this one was in the making ever since the Lugia calc, the same one we were basing our own calc off of, got downgraded.

Warhammer Fantasy: Bloodthirster wings generate storms (RENEWED)

vsbattles.fandom.com

12.4 Gigatons

Ursen's Durability and Roar

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13.7 Gigatons

Warhammer Fantasy: A cross city blizzard

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23 Gigatons.

So we're now consistently in 6-C... but that Bloodthirster one also has a Class P LS calc in it. Does that scale? Is it an outlier?

Well, considering we're currently basing our Class M rating based off of literal advanced fodder, it's actually more consistent than you think. We have two Class T feats that general scale(that being Mage Tower lifting and Prince Ograx also benching Krakanrok's talon) so it does have proper support from feats close to the tier.

TLDR: 6-C is consistent as hell for Greater Daemon-tiers, and Class P also applies to all of them.

 

[Naito-desu]

I pretty much started this so I obviously agree. I'll wait for other folk's input on the Class P calc. It might be applicable since a lot of rituals and magic do sort of reach this level. We may find more like this should we consider calculating more spells but I haven't had the time unfortunately.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Looks good, I agree.

 

[SomaKing13]

Looks great, agree with it for the most part

 

[OrangeFR]

looks good

 

[Naito-desu]

Anyway, this will affect all the High 6-C profiles, and the following will need to be unlocked:

• Sigmar
• The Fay Enchantress
• Be'lakor
• Gotrek Gurnisson
• Valkia the Bloody
• Skarbrand
• Bloodthirsters
• Kairos Fateweaver
• Lords of Change
• Keepers of Secrets
• Great Unclean Ones
• Ghal Maraz

These are the profiles that would need to be unlocked but there are many that are not locked that will also be receiving these changes

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Anyway, this will affect all the High 6-C profiles, and the following will need to be unlocked:

• Sigmar
• The Fay Enchantress
• Be'lakor
• Gotrek Gurnisson
• Valkia the Bloody
• Skarbrand
• Bloodthirsters
• Kairos Fateweaver
• Lords of Change
• Keepers of Secrets
• Great Unclean Ones
• Ghal Maraz

These are the profiles that would need to be unlocked but there are many that are not locked that will also be receiving these changes

Do Grail Knights in general also scale to 6-C?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Do Grail Knights in general also scale to 6-C?

Kinda sorta? There's multiple instances of them ******* over Greater Daemons and times they get railed by GD-level threats. Basically, depends on the Grail Knight.

 

[Naito-desu]

Grail Knights belong in that puddle of units that either downscale or are directly comparable to Greater Daemons. The best evidence we have is currently official art depicting a Grail Knight taking on a Daemon of Slaanesh plus some knights canonically killing dragons that are on the same level.

 

[Naito-desu]

Bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

This seems uncontroversial to apply.

@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Duedate8898 @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @FinePoint

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

 

[FinePoint]

This seems uncontroversial to apply.

The 6-C and the calcs seem perfectly fine.

In regards to the Bloodthirster LS being an outlier:

Bloodthirsters are pretty regularly referred to as some of the strongest, even among daemon-kind.

In addition, daemons from different gods have different specialties. I wouldn't expect a Tzeentchian daemon to have the same physical strength as a Khornate one.

So personally, I think we should probably only scale it to other greater Khorne daemons. Maybe a possibly for the others?

 

[DaReaperMan]

The 6-C and the calcs seem perfectly fine.

In regards to the Bloodthirster LS being an outlier:

Bloodthirsters are pretty regularly referred to as some of the strongest, even among daemon-kind.

In addition, daemons from different gods have different specialties. I wouldn't expect a Tzeentchian daemon to have the same physical strength as a Khornate one.

So personally, I think we should probably only scale it to other greater Khorne daemons. Maybe a possibly for the others?

The Daemons of the various gods fight regularly. They also fight the same kinds of enemies such as Gotrek Gurnisson, Grail Knights, and Warrior Priests of Sigmar regularly. There's very rarely and I mean very rarely cases where a Greater Daemon overpowers another greater Daemon in Fantasy. Even big names like Skadbrand and N'kari are directly comparable to eachother.

 

[FinePoint]

The Daemons of the various gods fight regularly. They also fight the same kinds of enemies such as Gotrek Gurnisson, Grail Knights, and Warrior Priests of Sigmar regularly. There's very rarely and I mean very rarely cases where a Greater Daemon overpowers another greater Daemon in Fantasy. Even big names like Skadbrand and N'kari are directly comparable to eachother.

Which is why their AP clearly scales, but you're asking about LS, which is a more direct measure of their muscles.

It seems obvious to me that they compete via relying on their specialties.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Which is why their AP clearly scales, but you're asking about LS, which is a more direct measure of their muscles.

Well Daemons don't have muscles so uh...

It seems obvious to me that they compete via relying on their specialties.

Like N'kari (Who brute forces things a lot) and Skarbrand (Who brute forces things a lot), correct? Most Greater Daemons are arrogant bastards assured of their victory so they don't bother relying on their specialty in combat unless it's against a mortal explicitly vulnerable to it.

 

[FinePoint]

Well Daemons don't have muscles so uh...

Like N'kari (Who brute forces things a lot) and Skarbrand (Who brute forces things a lot), correct? Most Greater Daemons are arrogant bastards assured of their victory so they don't bother relying on their specialty in combat unless it's against a mortal explicitly vulnerable to it.

N'Kari is probably fine, but I doubt Big Bird would stand a chance against Skarbrand in an arm-wrestling match (without cheating), for example.

We could definitely do it case-by-case. I'm mostly wanting to avoid characters who are clearly mainly spell casters scaling in terms of physical strength.

 

[DaReaperMan]

We could definitely do it case-by-case. I'm mostly wanting to avoid characters who are clearly mainly spell casters scaling in terms of physical strength.

You kind of have to be a caster/melee hybrid to scale physically to Daemons while casting magic too, and even then, you need a feat of harming or physically engaging someone or something on the level of a GD to scale. Malekith scales, Teclis does not.

This is of course with the asterisk that Incarnates all scale to this no matter if they're melee or ranged because magic is a UES for them, seeing as they have entire winds of magic in themselves that they can use and withstand.

 

[FinePoint]

You kind of have to be a caster/melee hybrid to scale physically to Daemons while casting magic too, and even then, you need a feat of harming or physically engaging someone or something on the level of a GD to scale. Malekith scales, Teclis does not.

This is of course with the asterisk that Incarnates all scale to this no matter if they're melee or ranged because magic is a UES for them, seeing as they have entire winds of magic in themselves that they can use and withstand.

Well so long as we don't scale it to people who are pure spell casters without other justification, I suppose I'm fine with scaling anybody who engages in direct melee combat with greater daemons similar or greater than Bloodthirsters.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well so long as we don't scale it to people who are pure spell casters without other justification, I suppose I'm fine with scaling anybody who engages in direct melee combat with grater daemons similar or greater to Bloodthirsters.

Which, we should note, is basically everyone because Bloodthirsters are the most commonly used GD by far. Unless it's someone in the line of Aenarion. But then they just fight N'kari who scales to Skarbrand anyway.

 

[FinePoint]

Which, we should note, is basically everyone because Bloodthirsters are the most commonly used GD by far. Unless it's someone in the line of Aenarion. But then they just fight N'kari who scales to Skarbrand anyway.

Well unlike my brother, I haven't read the books, so I'm not sure who has physically fought who canonically. (I'll ask him, actually.)

I played all the games, though.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well unlike my brother, I haven't read the books, so I'm not sure who has physically fought who canonically.

I mean generally if it's a story with a GD involved, it's a bloodthirster, or the GD has a name and thus it may or may not be from another god. Even for Skaven it's normally Bloodthirsters who are involved, sometimes summoned on accident by Thanquol, who failed at summoning the Daemons of his own race that spectacularly.

I played all the games, though.

I can recommend you books depending on which races you're actually interested in

 

[FinePoint]

I mean generally if it's a story with a GD involved, it's a bloodthirster, or the GD has a name and thus it may or may not be from another god. Even for Skaven it's normally Bloodthirsters who are involved, sometimes summoned on accident by Thanquol, who failed at summoning the Daemons of his own race that spectacularly.

I can recommend you books depending on which races you're actually interested in

I've asked my brother over Discord. He's not a battle-boarder, but he got me into the series and has read most of the books.

 

[FinePoint]

Which, we should note, is basically everyone because Bloodthirsters are the most commonly used GD by far. Unless it's someone in the line of Aenarion. But then they just fight N'kari who scales to Skarbrand anyway.

This is what my brother said in response to this:

This context seems to support what I initially thought, that Bloodthirsters are generally considered stronger than most daemons, and so we probably shouldn't scale their lifting strength to them.

He agrees that N'kari is probably comparable.

 

[DaReaperMan]

This is what my brother said in response to this:

I said "Blood of Aenarion", not just Aenarion himself. This isn't really dealing with the point, it's just... talking about Aenarion and Khaine.

Like yeah, what he's saying is correct, but it doesn't matter because both Aenarion and the Sword of Khaine are Incarnate-tier anyways, they're not a discussion point here because there isn't a question about Aenarion scaling and the Widowmaker can't lift things in the first place because it's a ******' sword.

 

[FinePoint]

I said "Blood of Aenarion", not just Aenarion himself. This isn't really dealing with the point, it's just... talking about Aenarion and Khaine.

Like yeah, what he's saying is correct, but it doesn't matter because both Aenarion and the Sword of Khaine are Incarnate-tier anyways, they're not a discussion point here because there isn't a question about Aenarion scaling and the Widowmaker can't lift things in the first place because it's a ******' sword.

Sorry, I sniped you with edits a bit.

There's a second screenshot and a conclusion now.

 

[FinePoint]

He also brought up a good point that the storm creation feat may not be achieved entirely through physical means, which would make the lifting strength calculation suspect. So I'm wondering if it's even proper to use anyway.

 

[Naito-desu]

If it was magic then Aethyr would be involved and if Aethyr was involved wouldn't UES apply anyway? Edit: Oh wait nvm, this is regarding Class P. Yeah I'm personally neutral on that so I don't really have much to add. AP looks fine

 

[DaReaperMan]

This context seems to support what I initially thought, that Bloodthirsters are generally considered stronger than most daemons, and so we probably shouldn't scale their lifting strength to them.

Among the strongest, and yet they're still the most common point of scaling. Diedrich strangled one with it's own whip, for instance. Fact is deciding whether a character scales or not, and that's a case-by-case thing that has largely already been done for all profiles out that aren't referenceless. We don't scale someone to High 6-C for no reason, they need a feat for fighting something on that level or being a Level 4 Mage minimum.

He agrees that N'kari is probably comparable.

I mean no shit, N'kari is strong enough to be in the possibly High 6-B crowd, weak he is not.

He also brought up a good point that the storm creation feat may not be achieved entirely through physical means, which would make the lifting strength calculation suspect. So I'm wondering if it's even proper to use anyway.

What he's saying is that Daemons ARE magic. The winds of magic need to be at least somewhat strong in an area for a Daemon to manifest without a ritual, and without heading too far north or south, generally they have a time limit on top of that unless an incredibly powerful greater Daemon like N'kari or caster like Vilitch the Curseling is keeping them manifested.

So yeah, a Bloodthirster's physicals scale to the Class P feat. Anything a Bloodthirster DOES is going to be magical in some regard cause they're made of the crap.

 

[FinePoint]

If it was magic then Aethyr would be involved and if Aethyr was involved wouldn't UES apply anyway? Edit: Oh wait nvm, this is regarding Class P. Yeah I'm personally neutral on that so I don't really have much to add. AP looks fine

Maybe. Do we consider magic to scale to all their stats equally? If so, why?

 

[FinePoint]

Snip.

Alright. Ultimately, it seems like what he's saying and what you're saying do line up, so I suppose that dispels my doubt for now.

Therefore, I'm fine with the calc and using it to scale anyone comparable.

In that case I suppose the thread is now technically approved, since Ant was also fine with it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Alright. Ultimately, it seems like what he's saying and what you're saying do line up, so I suppose that dispels my doubt for now.

Therefore, I'm fine with the calc and using it to scale anyone comparable.

In that case I suppose the thread is now technically approved, since Ant was also fine with it.

Yep. To be safe unless said character is directly comparable to a Bloodthirster I'll go with Class T, possibly Class P as you suggested, because there is a good point to be had with saying to not scale them like that.

 

[Naito-desu]

I think it wholly depends on the context of the feat but if a mage is capable of a certain level of destruction and a character can survive it, I do think the character should scale accordingly. So if a mage can use energy to create a storm, they can use that same energy to hurt a character with a spell.

But I'm mostly digressing as this involves AP, Lifting Strength is more dicey but I still think that if a mage is capable of telekinetically lifting and moving an object but cannot with specific characters, then the character should be comparably strong or resistant.

 

[Naito-desu]

Anyway I'll maintain neutrality on Class P but agree with downgrading to 6-C

 

[Naito-desu]

Given we have a mod input and approval I suppose this can pass?

 

[Antvasima]

It seems so, yes.

 

[Naito-desu]

Anyway, this will affect all the High 6-C profiles, and the following will need to be unlocked:

• Sigmar
• The Fay Enchantress
• Be'lakor
• Gotrek Gurnisson
• Valkia the Bloody
• Skarbrand
• Bloodthirsters
• Kairos Fateweaver
• Lords of Change
• Keepers of Secrets
• Great Unclean Ones
• Ghal Maraz

These are the profiles that would need to be unlocked but there are many that are not locked that will also be receiving these changes

Well in that case these are the profiles that need unlocking

 

[Antvasima]

If you write the exactly worded full titles for each of the here affected wiki pages in a regular text format, I or somebody else will be able to easily unlock them with an automated program.

 

[Naito-desu]

They're all verbatim except for Bloodthirstera

1. Sigmar
   The Fay Enchantress
   Be'lakor
   Gotrek Gurnisson
   Valkia the Bloody
   Skarbrand
   Bloodthirsters of Khorne
   Kairos Fateweaver
   Lords of Change
   Keepers of Secrets
   Great Unclean Ones
   Ghal Maraz