Warhammer 40k Chaos God Revision

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So this was brought to my attention awhile ago, but I had completely forgotten to bring this up, until now.

The Chaos Gods and the Warp itself are very often left intentionally vague due to their nature in the setting, as well as different writers from different eras having differing ideas about them and what they stand for. The same can certainly be said of their power, as well. The Chaos Gods are currently rated as 1-C due to a passage from the most recent Chaos Daemons Codex stating that Tzeentch's realm spirals through nine dimensions. However, the Warp is not always portrayed as exactly 9-D. In another story, the Warp is portrayed as having eight dimensions as opposed to nine. "To the eight dimensions of the warp were added the four dimensions of ordinary space". However, in the exact same paragraph, it mentions how the overlap of the Warp and realspace caused the resulting space to be twelve dimensional in all, then going on to imply that the beings of the Warp were fully capable of navigating and understanding said 12-D space when events such as this occur. While the first two instances are both 1-C feats, the last instance is a Low 1-B feat, showing that even by a single writer in a single story, the Warp's exact properties are left unknown, even being implied to grow and shift during events in which it begins to consume other constructs and continuums.

Because of this, it seems odd to give the Chaos Gods such a set tier. Would anyone have any qualms with the Chaos Gods (and any entities scaled from them) being changed to something along the lines of "Likely 1-C, possibly higher" while making mention of the uncertainty regarding the exact nature of the Warp?

 

[RavenSupreme]

can you give any link to the codex/volume/white dwarf etc. regarding the 8+4 spaces?

chaos gods can not fully manifest in realspace however they can affect it. if there really is solid prove for them being 12 dimensional entities they most likely should even be upgraded a little further reaching into the 1-b category

however depending on the accuracy of the fluff (old ones getting retconned etc. etc.) we have to further investigate this

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It is from the "Eye of Terror" novel from 1999. I have no knowledge of if it has been retconned or not, though I have found no confirmation that it has. Here is the quote.

"Rugolo slumped in despair. For his own part Calliden felt too numbed to pray. So this was the end! He cursed himself for having listened to the fake Rogue Trader, someone with the stamp of failure written all over him. Miserable as his life was before, at least it was life. While these thoughts went through his mind he noted that the environment open to his warp eye was again changing, becoming even more difficult to apprehend. A warp-realspace overlap! To the eight dimensions of the warp were added the four dimensions of ordinary space! Twelve dimensions in all! Impossible even for a trained navigator! Could the entities of the warp understand such an environment? If so, they had intellectual powers far exceeding the human. It was far too complicated for Calliden to grasp. He whimpered, eyes rolling in his head, and gave up trying to interpret it. The great loom-like scheme surrounding him collapsed."

Edit: The story was later republished in Black Library's "The Book of the Lion" released in 2013, so it is likely still canon.

 

[RavenSupreme]

It is from the "Eye of Terror" novel from 1999. I have no knowledge of if it has been retconned or not, though I have found no confirmation that it has. Here is the quote.
"Rugolo slumped in despair. For his own part Calliden felt too numbed to pray. So this was the end! He cursed himself for having listened to the fake Rogue Trader, someone with the stamp of failure written all over him. Miserable as his life was before, at least it was life. While these thoughts went through his mind he noted that the environment open to his warp eye was again changing, becoming even more difficult to apprehend. A warp-realspace overlap! To the eight dimensions of the warp were added the four dimensions of ordinary space! Twelve dimensions in all! Impossible even for a trained navigator! Could the entities of the warp understand such an environment? If so, they had intellectual powers far exceeding the human. It was far too complicated for Calliden to grasp. He whimpered, eyes rolling in his head, and gave up trying to interpret it. The great loom-like scheme surrounding him collapsed."

Edit: The story was later republished in Black Library's "The Book of the Lion" released in 2013, so it is likely still canon.

that edit is nice. we have to find if the very same part was re-published like this as well. with the same words used.

i will look into something, then be back

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Thank you. I would do so, but I do not have a physical copy of Book of the Lion, nor can I find a PDF of it, at the moment.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I think that "At least 1-C. Possibly Low 1-B" with an added explanation seems appropriate for the Emperor of Mankind, the Chaos Gods, and other Warhammer entities of the same level.

 

[Jockey-1337]

I think Warp Gods are 12-dimensional.

 

[RavenSupreme]

i have yet to find something similar in the new lore book which got rewritten.

i would wait with the upgrade

 

[Aparajita]

Speaking of the Chaos Gods... what are we going to do about Slaanesh since she technically fell from Grace in the retcon, now that the Horned Rat has replaced her?

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. If that part has been rewritten in the current lore book, it may be best to let them stay as they are.

 

[RavenSupreme]

found it !

http://www.blacklibrary.com/collections-and-bundles/coll-featured/eye-of-terror-collection.html

130 dollars - yeha no.

-> a little bit of magic -

"Rugolo slumped in despair. For his own part Calliden felt too numbed to pray. So this was the end! He cursed himself for having listened to the fake Rogue Trader, someone with the stamp of failure written all over him. Miserable as his life was before, at least it was life. While these thoughts went through his mind he noted that the environment open to his warp eye was again changing, becoming even more difficult to apprehend. A warp-realspace overlap! To the eight dimensions of the warp were added the four dimensions - three spatial and one of time - of ordinary space! Twelve dimensions in all! Impossible even for a trained navigator! Could the entities of the warp understand such an environment? If so, they had intellectual powers far exceeding the human. It was far too complicated for Calliden to grasp. He whimpered, eyes rolling in his head, and gave up trying to interpret it. The great loom-like scheme surrounding him collapsed. Instead he became aware of the white-hot sun casting flares into a space that was oddly coloured, a dark violet shot with faint streaks of light rather than the ebon-black space he was used to, and of the planet towards which they were hurtling, looming ever closer. Where was Gundrum's ship? Had it already met its doom? No, there it was! So close they could have seen it with the naked eye! How was it they had closed the distance? How could the other ship have slowed down, in defiance of the warp current? He estimated they were less than a minute away from impact with the planet. Calliden could think of only one thing to do. He shut down the warp engine and attempted to drop back into realspace. A violent lurch threw them both forward. The breath was knocked out of Rugolo. Calliden, tossed about in his cocoon, felt something like a hammer blow in his head, and then lost consciousness. When he came round, Rugolo was slumped in his harness, still dazed. A whistling, rushing noise invaded the cabin, emanating from the outer hull. The Wandering Star was no longer in space. It was speeding through the atmosphere of the planet it had been rushing towards, flying through the air on stubby wings and steadied by the automatic pilot. Calliden was astounded. How could the ship have decelerated sufficiently to negotiate the atmosphere in so short a distance? It should have fallen like a flaming meteor and ploughed into the surface in seconds, its exploding engines creating a crater miles across, he spotted Gundrum's rainbow ship, soaring swiftly ahead of them. Calliden felt a stirring beside him. Rugolo was recovering. The trader took stock of the situation quickly, without bothering to ask how it had come about. His eyes gleamed as he spotted Gundrum's ship. 'Don't lose sight of them!'"

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So I suppose this means that we should change the Chaos Gods, and other warp entities to "At least 1-C. Possibly Low 1-B" then?

 

[RavenSupreme]

and if anyone is interested in the book - i have it now lol

 

[Jockey-1337]

Okay. So I suppose this means that we should change the Chaos Gods, and other warp entities to "At least 1-C. Possibly Low 1-B" then?

I agree

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright. I can make the appropriate changes, now.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I have made the changes to the Chaos Gods and all entities scaled from them, as well as cleaned up the pages.

 

[Aparajita]

I have made the changes to the Chaos Gods and all entities scaled from them, as well as cleaned up the pages.

That include the greater chaos princes like Abaddon etc?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That include the greater chaos princes like Abaddon etc?

No, just the bigger Warp entities. Going to clean up Abaddon and the Daemon Princes in a little bit.

 

[Antvasima]

All right then. Should we close this topic?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, I think it has been resolved.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I am reopening this thread because looking through the 6th edition Chaos Daemons codex (one of the more recent Daemon codicies), I've discovered some additional information which might be relevant here. I don't think it warrants its own new topic, as it's pretty similar to this one, so I will simply post it, here.

"Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or causality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds. It lies on the other side of dreams and nightmares, infinite in scope but without form or structure."

"It is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of consistency and unbound by the laws of time and space, a random, unstructured panorama of pure energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos in its truest sense, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose. Warp Space is Chaos, Chaos is Warp space; the two are indivisible."

"Daemons have no physical presence within the Warp. The Realm of Chaos is anathema to the laws of physics and the ships that navigate its depths do so by taking a skin or bubble of 'reality' with them when they enter."

"The Warp had no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography."

"The Hidden Library is infinite in dimension and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density. It contains every scrap of knowledge, every thought of every creature across space and time."

I am not sure what to make of these. Any thoughts and help would be appreciated. I will add other relevant quotes should I find them.

 

[Promestein]

Most of that sounds like pretty standard parallel universe stuff to me, up until "The Warp had no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography." And I don't know what to make of that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's mainly the one I was wondering about, as I'm not sure of its exact intent.

 

[RavenSupreme]

"Its impacts resounded simultaneously in multiple dimensions, slicing into the substance of the prince on both sides of the breach in the immaterium … The daemon screamed as the blade sliced into its head, shattering its skull in hundreds of dimensions at once. " - Dawn of War Omnibus

 

[Promestein]

"Its impacts resounded simultaneously in multiple dimensions, slicing into the substance of the prince on both sides of the breach in the immaterium … The daemon screamed as the blade sliced into its head, shattering its skull in hundreds of dimensions at once. " - Dawn of War Omnibus

This sounds like it may mean dimensions as in universes, not dimensions as in dimensions.

I'm not sure, though. It's often very hard to tell what the intent is in situations like these.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Probably. I think the clearest definition we had are the navigators statement, confirming it to be 12 dimensional

Everything with "hundred of dimensions" or even "infinite dimensions" is a bit too shaky for justifying an upgrade

That said - why don't we create a blogpost specific for feats, quotes etc. only for the lore of warhammer? It would make referring easier not only for us but for everyone who needs to know something for the verse

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That does sound like a good idea.

 

[Jockey-1337]

I agree