(VOTES NEEDED) Ah yes... An annoying social influencing fight. (The Rake vs Tang Sanzang)

[H3110l12345I20]

As requested by @AThe1412, I'll make this match, but in one condition... ADDED SI BASED WINCONS!

Conditions: Both are 10-B and have the bonus wincon of mentally breaking the opponent to win.

Garden MOnster: 1 (noninho,

Annoying Orange, but human:

They both team up to be even more mentally terrifying (incon):

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

So 2 things;

• How will Tang SI a animalistic creature to kill itself or anything similar.
• Doesn't the rake just induce fear into Tang more potent with the abilities of Telepathy, Fear Inducement and Empathic Manipulation? It's gonna murder Tang with his claws after these 3 hax do their dirty work. Mr Rake also has incredible stealth to pull this off.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

How will Tang SI a animalistic creature to kill itself or anything similar.

The Rake knows human language, it will be vulnerable to at least some SI.

Doesn't the rake just induce fear into Tang more potent with the abilities of Telepathy, Fear Inducement and Empathic Manipulation? It's gonna murder Tang with his claws after these 3 hax do their dirty work. Mr Rake also has incredible stealth to pull this off.

They both start in melee range. Even if the Rake didn't want a physical confrontation (which isn't it's typical method of killing), the creature could threaten Tang into submission (it's main method of killing).

If you want. I could give Tang prior knowledge since previous threads accept that it will lessen the Rake's hax effectiveness.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

The Rake knows human language, it will be vulnerable to at least some SI.

I see.

They both start in melee range.

Please do put this in OP. I or anyone else wouldn't have known otherwise is why. Wouldn't the distance ensure the win of the rake aswell? I don't see any form of martial skill on Tang's profile while Rake has been hunting and killing since the 1100's and has better weaponry via claws which would gouge Tang to death upon contact.

If you want. I could give Tang prior knowledge since previous threads accept that it will lessen the Rake's hax effectiveness.

Please do that and increase the distance between them aswell. Tang is basically fighting an experienced armed opponent here.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Please do put this in OP. I or anyone else wouldn't have known otherwise is why. Wouldn't that ensure the win of the rake aswell? I don't see any form of martial skill on Tang's profile while Rake has been hunting and killing since the 1100's and has better weaponry via claws which would gouge Tang to death upon contact.

What? This melee range specification should be on the SBA page. Look up and read the standard battle assumptions on site and see why I don't have to put it in the OP in every vs thread. In other unspecified areas, SBA conditions takes care of this.

The Rake's only clear combat feat is killing a child, and his main method of killing is by threatening people into suscide. Why would you think the creature is superior in combat exp to this extreme? He lost to a Capybara and should be above average in combat exp.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Correction, tang starts in extended melee of the rake's claws.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

What? This melee range specification should be on the SBA page. Look up and read the standard battle assumptions on site and see why I don't have to put it in the OP in every vs thread. In other unspecified areas, SBA conditions takes care of this.

OP's are allowed to configure the distance between the characters they create matches with. The SBA page speaks of the default statistics used in a matchup, for example;

• Characters are willing to defend themselves by whatever means to win as the opponent is doing the same.
• No prep time.
• Location is automatically central park if the location hasn't been chosen.
• Verse Equalization

Etc.

Why would you think the creature is superior in combat exp to this extreme?

I never stated it has enhanced combat experience. It's extremely long life dating back 8 centuries plays part in how the creature will approach a human in combat since it's animalistic. It's natural weaponry is cherry on top.

It's also crazy since the profile doesn't expresses any combat feats for Tang at all, meaning physical contact would still end with the rake winning.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Correction, tang starts in extended melee of the rake's claws.

How many meters. Do specify since Extended Melee Range is broad

 

[H3110l12345I20]

How many meters. Do specify since Extended Melee Range is broad

And you don't understand SBA, you're briefly on the same page as me. SBA explicitly says at the edge of each other's ranges, so Tang would at most be 1 m away from the Rake.

OP's are allowed to configure the distance between the characters they create matches with. The SBA page speaks of the default statistics used in a matchup, for example;

• Characters are willing to defend themselves by whatever means to win as the opponent is doing the same.
• No prep time.
• Location is automatically central park if the location hasn't been chosen.
• Verse Equalization

Etc.


I never stated it has enhanced combat experience. It's extremely long life dating back 8 centuries plays part in how the creature will approach a human in combat since it's animalistic. It's natural weaponry is cherry on top.

It's also crazy since the profile doesn't expresses any combat feats for Tang at all, meaning physical contact would still end with the rake winning.

1: Why do you think this is 90% going to be a physical fight? The forum has had SI matches before as seen in the Johan Liebert vs Hinata Tabachiana match (if I am spelling the latter's name correctly).

Even if 2 SI-primary opponents wanted to kill each other, SI is their go-to first thing they would do. Heck in situations like these, if they could convince the other to kill themselves, they would do it first instead of physical violence. Convince how it wouldn't be a physical fight foremost.

2: A feat being prolonged for a period of time doesn't make it superior to a similar one done in a shorter amount of time. Nor does age=experience. A random human stalker can stalk higher security homes and knock out fit bodyguards in the span of months just to one up the Rake.

And the page just displays it stalking regular people over it's life. Not to mention anyone could beat up a child; it just takes guts to do it.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

And you don't understand SBA, you're briefly on the same page as me. SBA explicitly says at the edge of each other's ranges, so Tang would at most be 1 m away from the Rake.

And I'm saying close distance is just asking for Tang's demise. Everything I stated is to convince the increase in range between the characters. The Rake is a animalistic creature by nature. If it sees it's target right infront of it and in physical range. It's first instinctual guess is to jump, attack and rip apart Tang to kill him.

I relay SBA to help you understand that the rules of the match can be changed which you had no idea of prior.
You relay SBA to make your own match confusing and unfair.

We are not the same.

1: Why do you think this is 90% going to be a physical fight? The forum has had SI matches before as seen in the Johan Liebert vs Hinata Tabachiana match (if I am spelling the latter's name correctly).

Because unlike Johan and Hinata. The Rake isn't a genius with human intelligence. It's an animalistic creature that kills and traumatizes humans on instinct. You put this creature 1 meter Infront of a regular guy with no martial skill or weapon to help him and see if The Rake doesn't rip him apart with its own natural weaponry; Its Claws..... Infact these guys are as strong as each other.... The Rake has a advantage in combat nontheless.

2: A feat being prolonged for a period of time doesn't make it superior to a similar one done in a shorter amount of time. Nor does age=experience. A random human stalker can stalk higher security homes and knock out fit bodyguards in the span of months just to one up the Rake.

I never brought up "experience" to say that its some sort of skill God compared to a regular ass guy. Experience here means that The Rake could be on its way to kill its 3000th victim. It's adept in killing humans so facing another regular guy who simply talks fast and convincing isn't gonna be new to it. According to you in your paragraph above, The Rake itself has Above Average combat experience... Now what combat feats does Tang have?

And the page just displays it stalking regular people over it's life. Not to mention anyone could beat up a child; it just takes guts to do it.

It killed a child... Which is a confirmed kill of this creature. Why are you acting like this feat is some sort of skill feat for this guy lol. It being able to kill a child as something acting on instinct could be done to a grown adult aswell. For one, The Rake is 10-B with natural weaponry.

Again I appease to lengthen the distance. Preferably with both sides being out of sight of each other as I don't see why the rake would just stand there to hax Tang with fear instead of killing it's opponent when SBA itself is backing the match;

In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.

The Rake sees Tang as an enemy who could potentially kill him if left careless.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Because unlike Johan and Hinata. The Rake isn't a genius with human intelligence. It's an animalistic creature that kills and traumatizes humans on instinct. You put this creature 1 meter Infront of a regular guy with no martial skill or weapon to help him and see if The Rake doesn't rip him apart with its own natural weaponry; Its Claws..... Infact these guys are as strong as each other.... The Rake has a advantage in combat nontheless.


I never brought up "experience" to say that its some sort of skill God compared to a regular ass guy. Experience here means that The Rake could be on its way to kill its 3000th victim. It's adept in killing humans so facing another regular guy who simply talks fast and convincing isn't gonna be new to it. According to you in your paragraph above, The Rake itself has Above Average combat experience... Now what combat feats does Tang have?

And for a guy that claims that you never brought up com bat exp like a god, you keep acting like this will be a physical match 9/10 times. I'll make this clear, just because SBA says they have to fight and want to kill, doesn't make it a physical fight 9/10 times. If the opponent's character method of killing is through haxes besides physical means like mind manipulation or SI, they'll use those methods first.

Not to mention that by your logic, since it has centuries of experience killing people, it'll treat Tang like any other victim and prefer to use its haxes first. Same thing with Tang with his SI hax.

And how does Johan being a Genius suddenly make my 1st 2 paragraphs in this reply a false equivalence when the Rake's haxxes are what it more prefers? Ask yourself why it doesn't use it's physical strength more often in the canon if it seems to use it's haxxes more often? Maybe you'll see where I'm coming from.

 

[AThe1412]

I don't know what the hell Fallen is yapping about. He clearly haven't read the story where the Rake's only confirmed direct kill is a child and that it just stared at the kid's parents instead of attacking despite having the opportunity to do so due to having successfully snuck into their room while they were asleep. This implies that it can't or heavily struggles to kill adults (In fact, it could have killed a lot of people but chose to scare them into leaving the country or self-deleting instead. I'm certain it intentionally alerted the parents to its presence to make them witness it killing their child).

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

And for a guy that claims that you never brought up com bat exp like a god, you keep acting like this will be a physical match 9/10 times already

I've explained in the paragraph you responded to as to why.

I'll make this clear, just because SBA says they have to fight and want to kill, doesn't make it a physical fight 9/10 times. If the opponent's character method of killing is through haxes besides physical means like mind manipulation or SI, they'll use those methods first.

1. This attacks nothing since SBA was never the main reason as to why The Rake will engage Tang in battle. The distance and the animalistic trait of The Rake does. Rather; It sees Tang in physical range from him and it's immediate instinct would be to attack him.... I don't know how much more to simplify this but please do not strawman my words.
2. The Rake has no control over most of its "hax" according to the page scans. Fear aswell as empathetic inducement are come upon a overtime occurrence where the victims often envision, see or hear the creatures voice telepathically. Telepathy is the passable hax he induces and controls and even then those are just warning signals.

Not to mention that by your logic, since it has centuries of experience killing people, it'll treat Tang like any other victim and prefer to use its haxes first. Same thing with Tang with his SI hax.

Not really. The Rake's opponent being in hands length of him will give him the capability of ending his prey far quicker with his claws than what you're suggesting. That's not a defeater at all.

And how does Johan being a Genius suddenly make my 1st 2 paragraphs in this reply a false equivalence when the Rake's haxxes are what it more prefers?

What? The Johan point was false equivalence to this match as Johan and the Rake cannot be compared;

• The Rake doesn't have SI.
• They don't have similar levels of intelligence.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I don't know what the hell Fallen is yapping about. He clearly haven't read the story where the Rake's only confirmed direct kill is a child and that it just stared at the kid's parents instead of attacking despite having the opportunity to do so due to sneaking into their room while they were asleep.

1. I'm going solely off the profile.
2. Iirc, the Rake has a shy personality and doesn't usually engage humans but stalks them which makes sense in the parents scenarios.
3. My whole deal is the fact that starting both characters in melee range gives me the idealogy that the Rake would attack Tang on instinct being entirely animalistic and backed by SBA.

This implies that it can't or heavily struggles to kill adults (in fact, I'm certain it intentionally alerted them to its presence to make them witness it killing their child)

That's where SBA comes in. SBA gives the Rake the mindset that Tang has the capability of harming or even killing it. It's in the mindset to avoid this as much as possible.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

3. My whole deal is the fact that starting both characters in melee range gives me the idealogy that the Rake would attack Tang on instinct being entirely animalistic and backed by SBA.

And this is your point? I thought I was putting words in your mouth, but wut?

You're saying an animalistic character that not only is implied to have mind and fear manip as it's typical way of killing on it's profile, and has deep knowledge of stalking and killing animals, is going to attack? Since he's had centuries to kill, he would've already done this to a reg. person. And why doesn't the Rake have more raw power feats if it could kill people? Answer that.

That's where SBA comes in. SBA gives the Rake the mindset that Tang has the capability of harming or even killing it. It's in the mindset to avoid this as much as possible.

And you don't think the creature's tactic of using it's haxes will allow it to try to harm Tang without self physical injury? Or back away from a distance first? Since it knows it's haxxes are a tactic that's worked more consistently?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I've explained in the paragraph you responded to as to why.


1. This attacks nothing since SBA was never the main reason as to why The Rake will engage Tang in battle. The distance and the animalistic trait of The Rake does. Rather; It sees Tang in physical range from him and it's immediate instinct would be to attack him.... I don't know how much more to simplify this but please do not strawman my words.
2. The Rake has no control over most of its "hax" according to the page scans. Fear aswell as empathetic inducement are come upon a overtime occurrence where the victims often envision, see or hear the creatures voice telepathically. Telepathy is the passable hax he induces and controls and even then those are just warning signals.



Not really. The Rake's opponent being in hands length of him will give him the capability of ending his prey far quicker with his claws than what you're suggesting. That's not a defeater at all.


What? The Johan point was false equivalence to this match as Johan and the Rake cannot be compared;

• The Rake doesn't have SI.
• They don't have similar levels of intelligence.

And now you're saying the Rake won't use it's hax and my point is a false equivalence. It's fair enough that you correct one of my assumptions about your claims, but explain to me how the Rake's tactics of threatening people into KYS isn't within his control if he could do it.

And being animalistic doesn't always mean you'll act like a Stereotypical animal. The Rake is known for stalking, not stalking and using brute force. Why would you think it would be against it's instincts to threaten Tang into an immoral KYS? Even IRL animal predators have strategic intelligence to get prey the most efficient and safe way possible. In this case, it's threats since it's most often worked.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Since he's had centuries to kill, he would've already done this to a reg. person. And why doesn't the Rake have more raw power feats if it could kill people? Answer that.

Because The Rake has a shy personality. It's pretty much the whole reason why it hasn't been found for all these centuries. Because of this personality trait, it hides itself away stalking others from a distance, observing and barely interacting with it's victims. However, in the event, The Rake is angered and/or bloodlusted, its whole persona takes a turn & it will attack others in hopes of killing without remorse. This is what happened to the boy in the lore and it has been doing this for centuries, I think now you get the picture as to why The Rake doesn't have more confirmed kills as the story only focuses on a few.
SBA only sets the mind of The Rake to angry which is why I believe it will attack Tang.

And you don't think the creature's tactic of using it's haxes will allow it to try to harm Tang without self physical injury?

Self physical injury?? Tang is dying to the Rake if it attacks. Yea but when Tang is right infront of him, don't you think it's much easier to stab him to death? What kind of reasoning is this?? The Rake in his creepypasta uses his hax against it's victims when it's actively targeting them... Can you say the same about when his victim is right infront of him? While under the influence of SBA??

Or back away from a distance first?

The Rake just wouldn't do this. It's angry and will pursue his victim to the ends of the earth until they stop breathing. He isn't even smart to randomly retreat to use hax as it's literally acting off first instinct upon meeting an opponent who can harm it. I personally don't see it doing this in character.

Since it knows it's haxxes are a tactic that's worked more consistently?

It doesn't. All his fear and mind hax are solely induced upon his victims upon meeting and interacting with The Rake. His telepathic abilities are used to warn his victims of the dangers of being around him.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

It's fair enough that you correct one of my assumptions about your claims, but explain to me how the Rake's tactics of threatening people into KYS isn't within his control if he could do it.

The people who have killed themselves do it for many factors NOT ONLY relating to his "hax". His victims upon simply seeing him would change their whole world view causing them to experience anxiety, concern or severe stress. The Rake then actively stalks them making them feel extensive fear and uneasiness. The hax in question is induced when he speaks to them telepathically which only adds salt to the wound. Finally the victims would experience nightmares viewing The Rake among other things. It's a cumulation of events that cause his victims to commit suicide, not simply and only him inducing it.

And being animalistic doesn't always mean you'll act like a Stereotypical animal.

It did become aggressive towards the boy in lore... Do you know why that is? What you're saying is correct. But The Rake becomes stereotypical upon many factors despite not being naturally aggressive. Again SBA just triggers that factor and The Rake despite having main methods of pursuing opponent's will not have the same outlook here when his opponent is right infront of him.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

A reminder. The distance is 1m lol, he's in grabbing distance. I would be convinced if they started like 15 meters apart for The Rake to use stealth and hax or wtv.
You cannot look at me and say an opponent in grabbing range of a motivated to kill animal with claws will stand there and use hax to win.

 

[AThe1412]

A reminder. The distance is 1m lol, he's in grabbing distance. I would be convinced if they started like 15 meters apart for The Rake to use stealth and hax or wtv.
You cannot look at me and say an opponent in grabbing range of a motivated to kill animal with claws will stand there and use hax to win.

Rake isn't an animal. It's ******* sapient. Did you even read my comment above?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Yea but when Tang is right infront of him, don't you think it's much easier to stab him to death? What kind of reasoning is this?? The Rake in his creepypasta uses his hax against it's victims when it's actively targeting them... Can you say the same about when his victim is right infront of him? While under the influence of SBA??

Sorry for not clarifying. I said the Rake would hurt itself if it tried to attack Tang (direct or not). Not some confuzxling what the heck point.

And don't you think by circumstantial evidence that the Rake has attacked at least one person despite it's personality. Animals still learn from the past and constdering the enormous labor people done pre industrial revolution, it would get attacked by people shy away from directly attacking people like some IRL predators.

The people who have killed themselves do it for many factors NOT ONLY relating to his "hax". His victims upon simply seeing him would change their whole world view causing them to experience anxiety, concern or severe stress. The Rake then actively stalks them making them feel extensive fear and uneasiness. The hax in question is induced when he speaks to them telepathically which only adds salt to the wound. Finally the victims would experience nightmares viewing The Rake among other things. It's a cumulation of events that cause his victims to commit suicide, not simply and only him inducing it.



It did become aggressive towards the boy in lore... Do you know why that is? What you're saying is correct. But The Rake becomes stereotypical upon many factors despite not being naturally aggressive. Again SBA just triggers that factor and The Rake despite having main methods of pursuing opponent's will not have the same outlook here when his opponent is right infront of him.

Culmination of events? Give me a section of the story or scan about it.

And you're treating the Rake as animalistic when it has above average intellect. SBA gives the strong motive to kill, but that doesn't necessitate the opponent will go full out aggressive physically. I've seen matches where despite the strong motive to kill, the opponent does their usual nonphysical or nonviolent tactics. By your logic of SBA, we shouldn't have hax based matches or characters that will use haxes in character much like the ones for Thunder McQueen ironnically enough.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Rake isn't an animal. It's ******* sapient. Did you even read my comment above?

Certified bruh moment. I have high expextations for being wrong myself and I'll be disappointed if I am not by the end of the debate.

Even animalistic predators show intelligence. Real life predators hunt in the most efficient and safe ways. Why would even being animalistic be valid here if the Rake has a chance of getting a black eye? Some people can survive stab injuries from vicious predators IRL.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Rake isn't an animal. It's ******* sapient. Did you even read my comment above?

Oopsies "Large Hairless Dog" moment But fr, you're right.

And don't you think by circumstantial evidence that the Rake has attacked at least one person despite it's personality. Animals still learn from the past and constdering the enormous labor people done pre industrial revolution, it would get attacked by people shy away from directly attacking people like some IRL predators.

It's been implied that this could be a reason. There's also the implication that The Rake suffers from the trauma and sadness of not being able to exist in society which is why it sticks so close to humans.... See what they do and so forth. It's trying to run people out of their country

Culmination of events? Give me a section of the story or scan about it.

Yea it's especially on the scans of his profile. The Rake is seen and heard by his victims which causes them to be paranoid despite not actually hurting them. Suicide is then accomplished after frequent sights, sounds and nightmares when the victim can no longer handle them (This is a suicide note btw which proves this didn't happen immediately after meeting him lol). The profile words it as though it happens upon actually meeting him which isn't entirely true.

And you're treating the Rake as animalistic when it has above average intellect.

Above Average (Despite acting rather animalistic in nature, the Rake is a expert at stealth and is able to infiltrate homes undetected. He has been stalking numerous individuals for decades, dating back to the 12th century)

The Rake is indeed animalistic despite its capabilities. Any carnivorous animal as we both know is capable of incredible stealth which is what his Above Average intelligence rating is based off. His stealth is indeed notable but otherwise his behavior is closer to Below Average imo as it is capable of experiencing human emotion, self control despite bloodlust among other behaviors (Might make a crt).

SBA gives the strong motive to kill, but that doesn't necessitate the opponent will go full out aggressive physically

You're right. But what happens when a Lion knows that it's opponent is capable of murdering it? The Rake happens to fall under the same instinctual intelligence category as said Lion as they're both animalistic in nature. This ideology would work if we were talking about a Below Average of even Average intelligence, but The Rake is far from it. It's not really a creature that can thought process life threatening situations therefore it acts on instinct to defend itself similarly to animals. We both know what it would resort to in that case.

I've seen matches where despite the strong motive to kill, the opponent does their usual nonphysical or nonviolent tactics

And I guarantee these characters in said matches have above Animalistic and are at least Below Average in intelligence. I can't name one animalistic creature on this wiki under SBA resorts to hax when their opponent is in physical reach.

By your logic of SBA, we shouldn't have hax based matches or characters that will use haxes in character much like the ones for Thunder McQueen ironnically enough.

Lightning McQueen actually has human intelligence tho. He's also skilled in his own right and actually resorts to hax from a distance. When his opponent is in vicinity of him similar to the rake, he would resort to physical force (KE upon impact). This isn't really a defeater as what I'm saying only applies to the rake.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

have high expextations for being wrong myself and I'll be disappointed if I am not by the end of the debate.

I have a similar feeling. I'm using my knowledge on the creepypasta to relay a thought. I don't expect to be 100% correct either

 

[AThe1412]

You're right. But what happens when a Lion knows that it's opponent is capable of murdering it? The Rake happens to fall under the same instinctual intelligence category as said Lion as they're both animalistic in nature. This ideology would work if we were talking about a Below Average of even Average intelligence, but The Rake is far from it. It's not really a creature that can thought process life threatening situations therefore it acts on instinct to defend itself similarly to animals. We both know what it would resort to in that case.

Animals in real life often don't engage their prey if there's a high risk of injury or death. Instead, they threaten or intimidate them. We have seen the Rake approach people at very close range before and it has never directly attacked them save for the case of the child.

And I guarantee these characters in said matches have above Animalistic and are at least Below Average in intelligence. I can't name one animalistic creature on this wiki under SBA resorts to hax when their opponent is in physical reach.

A lot of them do though? There are so many animals out there that won't get in physical combat with their opponent and will instead use things like ink, a horrible odor or even vomitting their own organs to repel them and escape.

Lightning McQueen actually has human intelligence tho. He's also skilled in his own right and actually resorts to hax from a distance. When his opponent is in vicinity of him similar to the rake, he would resort to physical force (KE upon impact). This isn't really a defeater.

He's talking about Thunder McQueen from JoJo. Look him up.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Animals in real life often don't engage their prey if there's a high risk of injury or death.

I literally said this awhile ago and yet, he still used the Rake is animalistic point.

A lot of them do though? There are so many animals out there that won't engage in physical combat with their opponent and will instead use things like ink, a horrible odor or even vomitting their own organs to repel them and escape.

I can name a few here, honey badgers, squids, vultures, etc.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Animals in real life often don't engage their prey if there's a high risk of injury or death. Instead, they threaten them.

Would The Rake hypothetically threaten Tang into fear then? He has to have some kind of retaliation reaction under the influence of SBA if not immediately jumping Tang.

We have seen the Rake approach people at very close range before and it has never directly attacked them save for the case of the child.

This is because it isn't bloodlusted or cautious in those moments. A transversing & casually stalking Rake is entirely passive and harmless. We see the complete opposite when it's trying to threaten/kill with reason such as the "Leave the country" moments using telepathy or the infamous case with the Boy. SBA gives The Rake a reason to kill.

A lot of them do though? There are so many animals out there that won't engage in physical combat with their opponent and will instead use things like ink, a horrible odor or even vomitting their own organs to repel them and escape.

Said animals you speak of are likely herbivores and/or NOT hostile upon contact. These organs or abilities of these animals you speak of are solely of defensive use only and would never be used as an offensive ability. Aka you'll never see a skunk follow up with barrages of bites to a prey after smearing their odor on them, it's simply too tactical for it to do lol and they lack the combat intelligence to. This also has nothing to do with the Rake. He has offensive weaponry of his own and will use it if needed.

He's talking about Thunder McQueen from JoJo. Look him up.

Man this is embarrassing... I needa watch jojo

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Man this is embarrassing... I needa watch jojo

No need lol:

Thunder McQueen (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)

Thunder McQueen is a minor antagonist from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part VI: Stone Ocean. He is the cripplingly suicidal janitor of Green Dolphin Prison, where he was made an inmate after being wrongly convicted of the murder of a woman he did not know. He "fights" with Ermes Costello, and acts...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Said animals you speak of are likely herbivores and/or NOT hostile upon contact. These organs or abilities of these animals you speak of are solely of defensive use and would never be used as an offensive ability. Aka you'll never see a skunk follow up with barrages of bites to a prey after smearing their odor on them, it's simply too tactical for it to do lol and they lack the combat intelligence to.

And does that mean the Lion is more than willing to physically engage with a Zebra of a similar weight when there's a high chance of injury and escape from the Zebra (for example)? If a lion keeps taking risks like these, he's going to be worn out. Same thing goes for the Rake; in-case if you missed my point, if it keeps attacking humans physically, it will get worn down eventually since will have to deal with blunt force, improvised weapons, etc.

Would The Rake hypothetically threaten Tang into fear then? He has to have some kind of retaliation reaction under the influence of SBA if not immediately jumping Tang.

The scans don't say how much time has passed precisely, but presumably over a couple of hours. With the knowledge the creature has, it will back away and try to make Tang see it's eyes and/or try to threaten Tang.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I literally said this awhile ago and yet, he still used the Rake is animalistic point.

It's also crazy coming from the same guy who said The Rake isn't an animal but a Sapient. It's definitely far more intelligent but it still moves and acts based off instincts which is entirely an animalistic behavior.

 

[AThe1412]

Would The Rake hypothetically threaten Tang into fear then? He has to have some kind of retaliation reaction under the influence of SBA if not immediately jumping Tang.

SBA doesn't immediately make someone bloodlusted and act completely out of character (The fact that there's an entire staff thread proposing to make that even clearer despite it already being written to be so). All of its prey have been normal defenseless people who fear the supernatural so far. What can convince it that Tang would be any different especially since he's a monk?

This is because it isn't bloodlusted or cautious in those moments. A transversing & casually stalking Rake is entirely passive and harmless. We see the complete opposite when it's trying to threaten/kill with reason such as the "Leave the country" moments or the infamous case with the Boy.

It's always trying to torment people albeit psychologically though.

Said animals you speak of are likely herbivores and/or NOT hostile upon contact. These organs or abilities of these animals you speak of are solely of defensive use and would never be used as an offensive ability. Aka you'll never see a skunk follow up with barrages of bites to a prey after smearing their odor on them, it's simply too tactical for it to do lol and they lack the combat intelligence to. This also has nothing to do with the Rake. He has offensive weaponry of his own and will use it if needed.

It's natural weaponry is shown to be effective against a child. That's literally it. An average adult can kill a kid that needs to be put to bed with their bare hands if they want to. Why do you keep viewing the Rake under the lens that it's an animal? It literally talked and told people that its name is the Rake.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

And does that mean the Lion is more than willing to physically engage with a Zebra of a similar weight when there's a high chance of injury and escape from the Zebra (for example)? If a lion keeps taking risks like these, he's going to be worn out. Same thing goes for the Rake; in-case if you missed my point, if it keeps attacking humans physically, it will get worn down eventually since will have to deal with blunt force, improvised weapons, etc.

1. Vice Versa. Under SBA both parties view their opponent as great threats to their lives and know that they're entirely dangerous BUT will never back down without supernatural causes. You seem to forget that part of SBA;

State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.

Under SBA, The Rake despite being animalistic in nature according to the profile will stop at nothing to retaliate against Tang. Zebra vs Lion under SBA aswell stands the same. The Lion would fight the Zebra with all it has even if it might die in the end, same would be said for the Zebra. I don't make the rules.

The scans don't say how much time has passed precisely, but presumably over a couple of hours. With the knowledge the creature has, it will back away and try to make Tang see it's eyes and/or try to threaten Tang.

This is so out of character and far too tactical for the rake to do . He won't just get up in someone else's face just so he can win a battle while actively knowing. The lore has him do these acts in character to observe others, he doesn't have ill intentions in these moments. Threatening Tang upon instinct makes sense however.

SBA doesn't immediately make someone bloodlusted and act completely out of character (The fact that there's an entire staff thread proposing to make that even clearer despite it already being written to be so)

I see. I know it doesn't bloodlust others tho, but it might depending on who it is. Try putting Darth Vader under SBA rules and find out .

What can convince it that Tang would be any different especially since he's a monk?

SBA.... And I'm sorry for being repetitive on this but look man;

State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.

It's natural weaponry is shown to be effective against a child. That's literally it.

Are you saying a human sized individual with sharp claws would be ineffective against a regular guy? I'm not sure being bigger than a child makes you invulnerable to bleeding gallons of blood. The Rake's claws are pretty much the reason why he wins the matches he does or doesn't get stomped in the matches he doesn't despite being as strong as a average guy.

Why do you keep viewing the Rake under the lens that it's an animal? It literally talked and told people that its name is the Rake.

Because despite its capabilities and amazing intelligence, It's comes nothing close to human level thinking. It's own emotions, self esteem and personality stop it from using it's brain to the fullest but act on instinct. It's purpose is to keep others away from it by unintentionally scaring them which is the only intelligent thing it's capable of and this is where stealth, telepathy and its "hax" come in.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

It's own emotions, self esteem and personality stop it from using it's brain to the fullest but act on instinct.

Humans also have emotions, instincts, self esteem and personality. The mental differences of humanz with animals is debatable in some areas, not to mention our emotions ironically triumph our logical brains (edited for accuracy).

And yet, it's instinct would be to find the safest way to kill Tang.

Are you saying a human sized individual with sharp claws would be ineffective against a regular guy? I'm not sure being bigger than a child makes you invulnerable to bleeding gallons of blood. The Rake's claws are pretty much the reason why he wins the matches he does or doesn't get stomped in the matches he doesn't despite being as strong as a average guy.

The Rake has no combat exp against 10-B people. That's his point. A guy winning a fight against the Rake would technically one up the Rake even if the Rake savagely attacked the guy.

This is so out of character and far too tactical for the rake to do . He won't just get up in someone else's face just so he can win a battle while actively knowing. The lore has him do these acts in character to observe others, he doesn't have ill intentions in these moments. Threatening Tang upon instinct makes sense however.

And yet, stealth based animals have to be tactical in front of prey. Otherwise their prey will flee or mess em up.

For a person that oversimplified animals into thinking they just go act like savage chimps on people. You don't think a shy guy animal with decades of experience would know when to attack and back off. Even lions (who have animal instincts) know when to back off from a potentially dangerous animal. Not every animal has a mind of an amoeba, so prove to me it's acts and animals are instinct only. Otherwise, I'd argue it would be against it's instincts and character to physically attack a man.

Under

Huh. My phone broke loading this section. But I'll present my point anyways smh.

My point against the lion and zebra is an argument if it's in-character for the lion to instigate the fight IRL, not if it will not fight at all.

And similarly wouldn't a predatory Rake shy way to a killing method less likely for him to be physically harmed? It's also out of character for him to physically attack people. It's out of character for predators to try to fight something with a great chance of injury, not to mention SBA says willing, not desperate to kill. Prove to me that SBA will make the Rake kill like Vader with SBA's page.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Humans also have emotions, instincts, self esteem and personality. The mental differences of humanz with animals is debatable in some areas, not to mention our emotions ironically triumph our logical brains (edited for accuracy).

That sentence was never to delve onto how The Rake compares to a human psychologically. I was simply outlining the main influences as to why The Rake cannot gain or maintain whatever Human-like level of Intelligence it has. It survives and lives off its own purpose (which I outlined in a paragraph above), getting closer to humans to simply observe them much like a child replicating what his parents do after observing them. Because of his overly exposure to humans, it learned human language among other human like traits. The Rake however cannot gain much more than that due to its own nature and the main influences which we both stated above (It's emotions, personality and self esteem). The thing is basically a flipping switch, one moment its a predatory animal and the next it's a sobbing child, it's never consistently one of the two. Reminder: It's own profile states it's animalistic in the intelligence section. This is not based off me solely.

The Rake has no combat exp against 10-B people. That's his point. A guy winning a fight against the Rake would technically one up the Rake even if the Rake savagely attacked the guy.

Said "guy" in question would only win if they have weaponry or martial skill is what I'm saying. No form of showings in combat for the guy despite The Rake having no combat experience against average people itself will still end up with the Rake winning; Why? Because it has natural weaponry which is one up from a guy who has nothing. Again this is only regarding physical combat between 10-B Rake and a 10-B guy. I'm still confused as to why The Rake wouldn't attack Tang.

And yet, stealth based animals have to be tactical in front of prey. Otherwise their prey will flee or mess em up.

What does this pertain to or affect? The Rake isn't actively hunting Tang to switch to stealth lol (which is the only in-character thing The Rake uses stealth is used for in Lore). I find it crazy how out of character stealth is being used for here. They randomly meet face to face in physical reach from each other with the idea that their opponent can harm them but will not back down despite that fact. It's obvious The Rake will just have another mental breakdown and attack ruthlessly.

You don't think a shy guy animal with decades of experience would know when to attack and back off.

Have you read my previous messages above? And Yes you would think that, The Rake is Sapient just as @AThe1412 stated. It only attacks when there's reason to;

This is because it isn't bloodlusted or cautious in those moments. A transversing & casually stalking Rake is entirely passive and harmless. We see the complete opposite when it's trying to threaten/kill with reason such as the "Leave the country" moments using telepathy or the infamous case with the Boy. SBA gives The Rake a reason to kill.

It's not really a creature that can thought process life threatening situations therefore it acts on instinct to defend itself similarly to animals.

It did become aggressive towards the boy in lore... Do you know why that is? What you're saying is correct. But The Rake becomes stereotypical upon many factors despite not being naturally aggressive. Again SBA just triggers that factor and The Rake despite having main methods of pursuing opponent's will not have the same outlook here when his opponent is right infront of him.

The Rake has a shy personality. It's pretty much the whole reason why it hasn't been found for all these centuries. Because of this personality trait, it hides itself away stalking others from a distance, observing and barely interacting with it's victims. However, in the event, The Rake is angered and/or bloodlusted, its whole persona takes a turn & it will attack others in hopes of killing without remorse. This is what happened to the boy in the lore and it has been doing this for centuries, I think now you get the picture as to why The Rake doesn't have more confirmed kills as the story only focuses on a few.
SBA only sets the mind of The

These points and numerous others summarize this reasoning quite well. The Lore makes it clear that The Rake while not being naturally aggressive can really become aggressive if even slightly threatened or bloodlusted as its whole personality is a flip switch and is sometimes unpredictable.

And similarly wouldn't a predatory Rake shy way to a killing method less likely for him to be physically harmed? It's also out of character for him to physically attack people.

Contented this point above.

not to mention SBA says willing, not desperate to kill. Prove to me that SBA will make the Rake kill like Vader with SBA's page.

Yea what happens when a creature that acts on instinct and threatens people has his target in the physical reach of his claws?? I DO WONDER . The fact that he's willing to kill will give him the option to maybe.... Slightly poke Tang to death? SBA also states that Both Characters know that their opponent can cause them great harm but will never back down without supernatural influences.... These two reasons will send The Rake into a fury and there's no way you can look at me and say The Rake's first action is to step back and "use hax". It's never done anything close to this in lore, not only is this headcanon but disingenuous as y'all are ignoring the fact that The Rake doesn't have tactical thinking in character, He's literally animalistic (says the profile aswell) for damns sake. I needa make a crt on this guy's intelligence section and "hax" as this is ridiculous....

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

This all could been solved if they both started a reasonable distance away from each other, preferably out of sight.... But instead The Rake can literally Poke Tang from a 1m distance. I cannot see how it doesn't attack him off the bat when counting these factors among others.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Yea what happens when a creature that acts on instinct and threatens people has his target in the physical reach of his claws?? I DO WONDER . The fact that he's willing to kill will give him the option to maybe.... Slightly poke Tang to death? SBA also states that Both Characters know that their opponent can cause them great harm but will never back down without supernatural influences.... These two reasons will send The Rake into a fury and there's no way you can look at me and say The Rake's first action is to step back and "use hax". It's never done anything close to this in lore, not only is this headcanon but disingenuous as y'all are ignoring the fact that The Rake doesn't have tactical thinking in character, He's literally animalistic (says the profile aswell) for damns sake. I needa make a crt on this guy's intelligence section and "hax" as this is ridiculous....

This all could been solved if they both started a reasonable distance away from each other, preferably out of sight.... But instead The Rake can literally Poke Tang from a 1m distance. I cannot see how it doesn't attack him off the bat when counting these factors among others.

And can you prove an animal will 9/10 times go for the most riskiest strat for killing given the opportunity even if they have other choice. That's considering you don't know how an animal would work under SBA. Even if a T Rex or Lion would for example, want to attack an animal it's size and capability, it wouldn't blindly do it head first if it could just do a far safer method to do it.

And the reason why he doesn't have ill intentions is due to it having no ill intentions for a confrontation. The moment the Rake goes confrontational and physical he's doing it to scare people. SBA never said the opponent will be attacking head-first cuz the stakes are high and will never back down. The Rake would do it to scare Tang rather than kill since it would cause Tang to more likely flee. And... attacking head-first would risk it dying, making it unable to fulfill it's purpose. The same instinct to defend itself can be used in a safer manner.

What does this pertain to or affect? The Rake isn't actively hunting Tang to switch to stealth lol (which is the only in-character thing The Rake uses stealth is used for in Lore). I find it crazy how out of character stealth is being used for here. They randomly meet face to face in physical reach from each other with the idea that their opponent can harm them but will not back down despite that fact. It's obvious The Rake will just have another mental breakdown and attack ruthlessly.

That point I mentioned wasn't a point for the Rake's stealth, it was a point for animals that would shy away from attacking until they have an opportunity. Give me a reason for why an SBA, shy animal would attack head first 9/10 times even if it could use another option to kill. If every animal decided to attack head-first at every winnable fight even if it could use a safer method to kill, they wouldn't survive as long as they could due to the gradual build up of damage.
________________________________________

Said "guy" in question would only win if they have weaponry or martial skill is what I'm saying. No form of showings in combat for the guy despite The Rake having no combat experience against average people itself will still end up with the Rake winning; Why? Because it has natural weaponry which is one up from a guy who has nothing. Again this is only regarding physical combat between 10-B Rake and a 10-B guy. I'm still confused as to why The Rake wouldn't attack Tang.

And if the Rake's claws haven't been shown to kill any man or woman, that just means the Rake attacks the weak and isn't used to attacking regular 10-B people. Sharp weaponry is a moot point if you don't know how to use it against people your size that can survive stabs.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I don't think starting the Rake further away would help since it's motivated to kill by your SBA interpretation not that it's in reach in this circumstance.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Bump. I just love the frustration that comes with this debate.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump

 

[noninho]

Will vote for the Rake due to a simple matter:
Out-range.
This guy has Standard Melee Range and 2 abilities while we have Rake's several meters. SBA says they will start at several meters and whenever Rake doesn't want someone close to wherever he's staying, he uses his mind haxes to get them to f*** off, and if for some reason they don't for some days, eventually they get so scared that they end up F-ing themselves.
Tang Sanzang is said to not usually put up physical fights and neither is the usual way of Rake to do stuff. The Rake doesn't like talking either and Tang Sanzang have no statement of talking to animals, while Tang has standard human weaknesses...and standard humans is what Rake's used to scaring away for centuries... and Tang's talking is not affecting Rake before Rake's abilities start f****** up his mind due to, again, range.