Vegeta vs Garou

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Also stars are giant nuclear reactions so they kinda do have dura neg with heat-

 

[Kin201]

Bang was weakening and Garou growing stronger, so no, not comparable.

They were comparable tbh. The reason Bang collapsed was because Garou landed the hit that sent shockwaves into his body. That's not even a direct hit, just a mere graze. Before that, Bang was taking normal hits just fine.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

They were comparable tbh. The reason Bang collapsed was because Garou landed the hit that sent shockwaves into his body. That's not even a direct hit, just a mere graze. Before that, Bang was taking normal hits just fine.

Not really. Bang in the fight was a glass canon, as has been kinda consistently said since like the EC fight. Garou was also growing more powerful as the fight went on and Bang was weakening, as well as notably having bad stamina. That Garou also then screams and is island level by jumping.

They were comparable, at first, but that wasn't the case at the end of the fight.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Where

The next two panel where you can see his charred remains. These are the same characters that consistently had trouble killing people like Cell and Majin Buu because their attacks do not naturally target an area that precise.

. And seeing how belt degree is usually determined by degree of mastery, I'd say it's a pretty good metric.

Roshi also beat him with pure brute force. He outsped and out muscled him, he didn't best him Batman style with superior skill.

while Goku could do that exact thing with a glance for the Kamehameha (50 years of ki training) and Roshi's other techniques.

Which is ki manipulation, not skill.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Vegeta should be able to tank the shockwave stuff just because of ki. If shockwaves were a big deal I'm sure we'd see them coughing up organs when they get punched by a universal attack to the gut.

 

[Kin201]

Not really. Bang in the fight was a glass canon, as has been kinda consistently said since like the EC fight.

I don't remember that Bang was established as a glass canon. He is a physical fighter, so I thought his durability is relative to his AP by default. What was shown in the EC fight that he is a glass cannon?

They were comparable, at first, but that wasn't the case at the end of the fight.

They were, even at the end of the fight. Bang punched hard enough to make blood come out of all corners of his head. In order to do that to someone, you have to have at least comparable strength.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

The next two panel where you can see his charred remains. These are the same characters that consistently had trouble killing people like Cell and Majin Buu because their attacks do not naturally target an area that precise.

Roshi also beat him with pure brute force. He outsped and out muscled him, he didn't best him Batman style with superior skill.


Which is ki manipulation, not skill.

There's nothing there but smoke.

Cell and Buu also have ki defenses, so it's not comparable to someone without those. Furthermore, Cell was destroyed beyond the cellular level and Buu can regenerate from literal smoke. Both of those alone prove ki would be able to damage a target on a far lower level than Garou's shockwaves could ever dream of. Unless you just headcanon that ki gets more fundamental as the series goes on.

Not really, he states verbatim that the gap between them is one of skill and Roshi doesn't use force until the end and immediately wins.

Ki manipulation is verbatim skill. Next. The same or better than any of Garou's. And yes, the page uses things like shockwaves and energy attacks for Garou's skill, so no hypocrisy here.

 

[Kin201]

Vegeta should be able to tank the shockwave stuff just because of ki. If shockwaves were a big deal I'm sure we'd see them coughing up organs when they get punched by a universal attack to the gut.

In Garou's case, the victim takes all the shockwaves into their organs. But you could say in DB, their skin and "ki" shield protect them from the shockwaves?

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

I don't remember that Bang was established as a glass canon. He is a physical fighter, so I thought his durability is relative to his AP by default. What was shown in the EC fight that he is a glass cannon?

They were, even at the end of the fight. Bang punched hard enough to make blood come out of all corners of his head. In order to do that to someone, you have to have at least comparable strength.

After Bang and Bomb use the Void Fist, they're incredibly weakened and their bodies strained. Fubuki heals them against Rover and they comment on how they no longer feel the pain from earlier. So the backlash of their own techniques damages them, implying they're not as durable as their AP.

That's odd, thought he only cracked the armor.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

In Garou's case, the victim takes all the shockwaves into their organs. But you could say in DB, their skin and "ki" shield protect them from the shockwaves?

That's most likely the case. Which should mean ki is a sufficient defense to something like this. Especially since, like I posted above, Chaoitzu blatantly attacks Krillin's organs.

 

[Qawsedf234]

nothing there but smoke.

That's not smoke since it doesn't match at all with how Akira draws dust clouds and smoke. It's ashes, which wouldn't exist if Frieza was atomized.

Unless you just headcanon that ki gets more fundamental as the series goes on.

My point is that their attacks do not naturally attack on that level and that Trunks didn't atomize Frieza. Vegito and Gotenks could atomize Buu, but they needed to specifically make stuff that targeted Buu on that level, their usual attacks wouldn't do it.

Ki manipulation is verbatim skill.

Nowhere in that statement does Akira mention skill. He just said that a big pool of ki is needed to be strong and no amount of training would match ki boosts.

If anything it's the opposite of skill (also thats Goku and not Vegeta, who won through brute force and not skill when fighting Goku).

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

If anything it's the opposite of skill (also thats Goku and not Vegeta, who won through brute force and not skill when fighting Goku).

Literally both times where Vegeta fought Goku, he won via superior AP, not skill. Saiyan Saga, he used the Oozaru form, which outclassed Goku's strength and speed even when the latter used Kaio-Ken x4. During the Buu Saga, Majin Vegeta was stronger than SSJ2 Goku, and knocked him out while he was off guard, iirc.

Heck, the only time I can think of Vegeta literally outskilling an opponent was against Broly.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Isn't this match outdated anyway since Garou's Low 5-B feat isn't canon anymore or am I just bugging?

If we're still using Low 5-B then I guess I can see Garou taking this for superior skill since he ain't that much weaker in AP.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Bruh ki is not matter manipulation durability negation lmao.

What chapter(s) do the scans come from? It's not hard to check the raws or alternate translations.

This. Yeah you should check raws.

 

[sanicspood]

GAROU USES GREAT POWA ATTACKKKKK

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

That's not smoke since it doesn't match at all with how Akira draws dust clouds and smoke. It's ashes, which wouldn't exist if Frieza was atomized.


My point is that their attacks do not naturally attack on that level and that Trunks didn't atomize Frieza. Vegito and Gotenks could atomize Buu, but they needed to specifically make stuff that targeted Buu on that level, their usual attacks wouldn't do it.


Nowhere in that statement does Akira mention skill. He just said that a big pool of ki is needed to be strong and no amount of training would match ki boosts.

If anything it's the opposite of skill (also thats Goku and not Vegeta, who won through brute force and not skill when fighting Goku).

No, it's not. There is nothing but light steam which matches other smoke scenes in the manga.

Yes they do and he did. Buu with his near limitless supply of ki and magic, strange body and regeneration that let him come back from steam in moments would be unaffected by anything Garou could do even if he was as strong as Vegito. So that's literally incorrect.

That's literally the most incorrect way to read that. Strengthening your ki VERBATIM requires becoming stronger in mind, spirit and a better martial artist in this scan. Not sure how you blatantly couldn't read that.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Literally both times where Vegeta fought Goku, he won via superior AP, not skill. Saiyan Saga, he used the Oozaru form, which outclassed Goku's strength and speed even when the latter used Kaio-Ken x4. During the Buu Saga, Majin Vegeta was stronger than SSJ2 Goku, and knocked him out while he was off guard, iirc.

Heck, the only time I can think of Vegeta literally outskilling an opponent was against Broly.

They were literally equal, what are you talking about?

 

[Qawsedf234]

No, it's not. There is nothing but light steam which matches other smoke scenes in the manga.

No it does not. But since you're not going to back down on this here's the official color scans of the scene. You can see charred remnants of Frieza that are emitting vaporm which matches with previous depictions of dust from a ki blast. Trunks blasted Frieza and the left off chunks were emitting vapor. Its not atomizing Frieza.

he did.

You can keep asserting this, but you'd still be wrong.

That's literally the most incorrect way to read that.

Its not

When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Note 11: Genki and yuuki, shouki
The word “energy” [genki; also “health”, “vigor”, etc] is well known, but if you had an illness [byouki], would you not have energy? That’s difficult to answer. There are some people who have a healthy body but no energy, but there are also some people who are full of energy even when ill. What’s more, even with people who have about the same amount of power, there are some who, when attacked by Piccolo Daimao for instance, will stand firm and tough it out, while others will run away trembling in fear. If you think this way, you might understand how different kinds of “ki” are very important in battle. In the world of Chinese kenpo disciplines such as Tai Chi, much importance is placed on the training and control of ki.

Although in “DragonBall” the wizard Babidi had invented machines that measured and extracted “ki”, modern science is unable to measure “ki” or store it anywhere. However, there are times when people support you, and give you energy [genki] and courage [yuuki]. Though it can’t be seen, what is present then is “ki”.

It has nothing to do with training to fight better, its training to properly control your ki and increasing the total size of your ki. Akira word for word states that training physical strength has limits and you need ki to go beyond it. It has nothing to do with skill and isn't equitable. Roshi for example didn't teach Goku or Krillin any martial arts, he just had them focus on breaking the human wall and applying the random stuff he had them do for fights.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Isn't this match outdated anyway since Garou's Low 5-B feat isn't canon anymore or am I just bugging?

No its outdated. Garou gets one shot if Vegeta lands any single attack on him and that's very likely with all of his AoE moves.

If the OP wants I can close the thread until Garou gets another 5-B feat or something.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

No it does not. But since you're not going to back down on this here's the official color scans of the scene. You can see charred remnants of Frieza that are emitting vaporm which matches with previous depictions of dust from a ki blast. Trunks blasted Frieza and the left off chunks were emitting vapor. Its not atomizing Frieza.

You can keep asserting this, but you'd still be wrong.

Its not

It has nothing to do with training to fight better, its training to properly control your ki and increasing the total size of your ki. Akira word for word states that training physical strength has limits and you need ki to go beyond it. It has nothing to do with skill and isn't equitable. Roshi for example didn't teach Goku or Krillin any martial arts, he just had them focus on breaking the human wall and applying the random stuff he had them do for fights.

The coloring has numerous issues from what is known to be correct at various points such as most ki beams being yellow when even in the original anime, which had a lot of approval from everyone including Toriyama the Kamehameha was always blue. Not to mention there's still just smoke. Vaporization at the very lowest.

I would still be correct.

It is.

That's again literally incorrect. Increasing ki size is literally not stated AT ALL. And not the scan that was posted. What is this source, provide it. Control is stated, mind is stated, spirit is stated, all of which wouldn't just be getting stronger. Ki is inherently better than the body's limitations, verbatim, and mastering it is specifically cited as why Goku became the greatest fighter in the series (before Super put dozens above him at least).

Roshi taught Goku and Krillin a discipline to live by, which would help them both grow and did. But that doesn't take away from the skill feats they display in World Tournament battles or later on, which objectively is better skill than anything Garou's shown. Everything from mimicry to hand to hand.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Also since the Earth bulge is retconned where would he be for moving the plate? That still happens.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Bro ki is not durability negation what the hell?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

And stamina as well given that Vegeta was unable to keep fighting after someone broke his arm or when a beam perforated his stomach.

A beam through the stomach is one thing but the damage Vegeta took in the Saiyan Saga was more intense than a simple broken arm so using that instance to say he can't fight after someone breaks his arm is stupid because that would make his stamina/endurance trash.

 

[Therefir]

A beam through the stomach is one thing but the damage Vegeta took in the Saiyan Saga was more intense than a simple broken arm so using that instance to say he can't fight after someone breaks his arm is stupid because that would make his stamina/endurance trash.

Besides being beaten to a pulp, I don't remember his bones being broken like 18 did to him, and ssj having a stamina drain doesn't justify the poor pain tolerance he showed, though I would like to think it was more his pride that was broken.

Either way Garou's Low 5-B rating is obsolete, there is no reason for this match to continue until further notice.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Not to mention there's still just smoke

There isn't, you can see the smoke being emitted from the charred remains of Frieza.

What is this source, provide it

Herms' translation. The same one you used: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9953

mastering it is specifically cited as why Goku became the greatest fighter in the series

Mastering ki manipulation makes you stronger. Obviously. But you said skill = ki, when that's not what it is. Fighting skill and ki size do not need to correlate.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Either way Garou's Low 5-B rating is obsolete, there is no reason for this match to continue until further notice

I didn't see this until I made my comment. So ill close it after Godzilla responds to my last comment (for fairness).

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

There isn't, you can see the smoke being emitted from the charred remains of Frieza.


Herms' translation. The same one you used: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9953


Mastering ki manipulation makes you stronger. Obviously. But you said skill = ki, when that's not what it is. Fighting skill and ki size do not need to correlate.

If you mean the black spots, those would be ashes that are then floating away in steam.

I see now.

They don't have to as there are blatant exceptions, however, this is something established as a feat of martial arts mastery in the series early on such as Roshi taking 50 years to develop the Kamehameha with intense training yet he verbatim does state the difference between his skill and that of Man Wolf is why he's doing so bad. In Jackie Chun disguise Roshi isn't using anywhere near his full power, not here anyway.

The panels show that he could've used brute force with the last kick, but instead effortlessly dodges and counters and uses pressure points for most of the scrap.