This is another thing that isn't on his profile
but bleach transcendence is basically db god ki: only transcendentals can sense transcendent reiatsu and Aizen can manipulate Sk Yhwach(transcendent)'s perception, making him believe he's piercing Ichigo, for example. There aren't feats for 2 layers though
Ofc, i am not proposing any changes on the profiles or smth. Just telling op what they should be wary of in the debate which probably ignores the vsbw profiles
What's vegeta's Hakai aura range?
I mean... how is that an argument? That's saying like I disagree with Aizen's X hax existing because I don't like it.
i think he means debate on discord without vsbw profiles
You can google it right now. Average mountain height is 2,000 meters. Vegeta's aura dwarfs all of the mountains around them by multiple times. And if you flick through the scans provided, Vegeta's first move is directing his aura to attack his opponent with Hakai energy.
That's not for this debate. It's for op's debate which isn't influenced by the vsbw profiles
My bad, I thought he was arguing here.
Aizen's fate hax isn't combat applicable
Why? Also what about the soul absorption
Gods Aca4 and god damn Forced Spirit Fission
His argument iirc is that hakai is accepted as history ee because it is capable of erasing an entire timeline, but in his words “Not the case here, but yeah. Basically anyone with uni+ dc can do this, hence history ee is kinda stupid.”
Actually, Vegeta firstly waits for the hakai aura to loosen till it goes from this:
Actually, that the scans for manga hakai justifications don't even imply the destruction of the timeline at all, the only statement about a universe is "I don't care what happens to this universe anymore" regarding a fight that threatened nearby planets, nothing about the "entire universe", let alone about the timeline or any timeline at all(also no hakai aura as the link tries to argue there is) + the fact that objects and people destroyed by hakai are still remembered by everyone and a few more args
The hogyoku only materializes things that are within the subjects abilities
The justification is from them being capable of erasing the universe from existence, as that would be erasing a spacetime, which classifies as history ee.
I don’t think history ee automatically means that people forget about the person who was erased. History ee just has to be able to something from history or history itself, not the memory of it.
But there is no such statement in the justification if you actually check it
History ee affects history itself so either everyone has ac1 which is a ridiculous claim or the history wasn't affected at all which is the case since the justifications don't remotely imply time itself being affected.
There is? It specifically mentions erasing universes and space-time continuums.
History ee does not need to erase the thought and memory of what it erases along with it. The memory and thought of it still exists, as only the thing itself was erased.
That's the wording in the justification. Now check the scans. Nothing about destroying the whole 3d universe, much less the temporal dimension
Someone being erased from history means they never existed to begin with and the events surrounding them also never happened. If there was never a Napoleon Bonaparte, would we know something about him? Would history books mention him or something?
Vegeta can redirect the height of his aura to his opponent whatever he wants, Hakai is UES Which extends to his 2-C range, plus you can literally see Vegeta charging to Granolah after "directing his aura to him after." He just quickly appeared.
In the scans they show them about to erase the universe, which would mean erasing a space-time. Any tier 2 or higher destruction caused through ee is considered history if I’m correct.
By that logic, beerus should’ve just immediately teleported back to earth as soon as he erased zamasu, since he erased zamasu in the past, and zamasu was the reason he went to universe 10 in the first place. It’s kinda like king crimson if you’ve ever seen jojo, in which it separates diavolo from his fate, but not anything or anyone else, so everything else acts as if diavolo is still acting out his fate during the duration of timeskip.
Except this is never shown and there's a reason why he didn't do it although that reason isn't really known.
Not sure I follow
Yes?
???
This ignores the equal speed thing which easily allows Aizen to travel to another dimension before this happens
That Vegeta was also already fully transformed? And the huge Hakai aura is literally the transformation scene, if you ignore that, his actual hakai aura is about this size:
This once again ignores the idea of equal speed giving Aizen the advantage.
In the scans they are only shown about to get serious with their fight potentially wrecking the universe. Not a single statement about the entire universe being erased and not a single statement about this affecting the temporal dimension. The entire argument is based on baseless assumptions.
Idt that's the case for destroying a 4 dimensional sttucture with 4d of space, but this is unrelated, there isn't any statement about hakai doing this.
This only further serves to support the argument that hakai isn't history erasure…
I actually dropped it during the beggining of part 4, then I read part 7 and 8 manga.
From what I'm reading on his profile, he erases a certain time period but the results of that portion of time that was erased still happen? So, basically a time skip for everyone? This still doesn't erase someone entirely from history. That's also a form of causality manipulation, which manga hakai doesn't have. And between using an unjustified ability to add another ability completely reliant on the supposed existence of that improperly justified one in order for the events to make sense and the attack simply not having the unjustified ability I think it's pretty clear which option is the correct one.
Honestly I forgot about Kurohitsugi. Yeah, Helper was right not closing the thread, it can actually go both ways without being a boring fight where Aizen just sits in another dimension and waits for Vegeta to tire himself out
Yeah, that’s what the justification is. The capability and potential to erase the universe. Nobody said that they did erase it or that the universe was actively being erased, that’s why vados and whis stopped them.
There is. In the scans when beerus and champa fight. When they state that they don’t care what happens to the universe anymore right before they are about to clash with balls of hakai energy.
No, it’s not like beerus’ hakai rewrote the entire timeline but as if zamasu never existed, it simply erased him across the already existing timeline
we got a part skipper over here
If you read what I typed you would know that I was not referring to the timeskip ability itself, but the interaction of fate and diavolo within the duration of timeskip. Diavolo completely separates himself from fate, but despite that, others still act as if he is there, still take damage from attacks he isn’t doing/is fated to be doing. That is because he only removes himself from fate, and not all of his actions, or others actions in response to what would be him or his actions. King crimson effectively removes the cause but keeps all of the effects despite that. The same principle applies here. Hakai would erase zamasu himself across the timeline, nothing else. Not things caused by zamasu’s existence, but zamasu’s existence only. The same way how diavolo removes himself from fate yet all of the same consequences remain from what would be his presence in fate, hakai would remove zamasu from the timeline, but it would not remove any actions or consequences of zamasu’s existence from the timeline. That’s because the hakai was only erasing zamasu himself from existence across the timeline, and not anyone’s actions or memories that would be a consequence of what would’ve been zamasu’s existence. The same way king crimson removes diavolo from fate but doesn’t remove all of his consequences, and other people’s actions as a result of what would’ve been diavolos presence in fate. Hakai didn’t change any events in the past because hakai didn’t erase any events in the past, only zamasu’s existence, not anything caused by his existence or any memories of his existence. Hakai only erases the actions and consequences of what would’ve been zamasu’s existence in the present and future of the timeline it is used due to the fact it stops the timeline from splitting. History erasure does not need to rewrite every action, consequence, or memory of something across the timeline in order to erase it. It could cause a paradox otherwise of if zamasu and his consequences was erased in the past, then him being erased from existence would also be erased from existence due to the fact that was a past consequence of his existence.
I never said timeskip was existence erasure?
What are you trying to say here? Hakai having history erasure is not at all reliant on timeskip. Why would hakai having an ability be reliant on something from an entirely different series? I used timeskip as an example from another series to better explain how the erasure of hakai works. I said “it’s kinda like king crimson”, not “hakai has history erasure because king crimson…”
You don’t need to keep saying this at the end of every message
Nobody actually said they can do that either
This still doesn't mean they will destroy the universe, much less the timeline
This is once again a mere assumption based on nothing but an unjustified ability.
Yeah, i got bored by that brothers thing mini arc with Enyaba's Bow
This is causality manipulation
This is headcanon. There's no confirmation of this.
This is also Causality Manip which is 101% unjistified headcanon based exclusively on the existence of an unjistified ability
I never said you did?
Huh? When did I say it is reliant on time skip
? Huge red herring. What I said is that this causality manipulation is necessary in order to have things make sense if you believe hakai has history erasure which, as I said, is unjustified imo. Thus, it's pretty clear that rather than it also having causality manipulation because of history erasure from some scans that don't prove history erasure it simply doesn't have history erasure.I did because I get the vibe you ignore this fact, but whatever. Which simply put means that I don't really care enough to take an entire page or so of this thread just to debate and prove hakai doesn't have history erasure under a thread that is not a crt questioning itYou don’t need to keep saying this at the end of every message
Idk man, I did
Much weaker clashes like between goku and beerus were capable of destroying the macrocosm, so it would be kinda ridiculous to say that this clash wouldn’t also be able to, especially considering they say they don’t care about what happens to the universe right before they are about to clash.
Man what kinda response is this
I wrote out that whole thing explaining how just because people remember zamasu, and the past consequences of his existence still exist doesn’t mean that it isn’t history ee. Which keep in mind was almost your entire argument against it being history ee, and you just ignore it all and say “there’s no official confirmation of this, this is headcanon, this is never stated”. It doesn’t need to be stated, it is an explanation about how your view of history ee is incorrect and how it could still be history ee despite the fact people still remember zamasuThen what was the point of you saying that timeskip doesn’t erase people from history?
Your argument was that since people remember zamasu, then hakai can’t be history ee. And I explained how that isn’t the case. That means that argument is not sound. And how would causality manipulation be necessary for it to make sense? And what would be wrong with hakai having causality manipulation? Isn’t that basically already what history ee is? And the hakai on zamasu quite literally already has causality manipulation accepted on the site.
How could I ignore this? You expect me to get confused all of a sudden and think that what you are saying is actually just someone else’s unrelated opinion?
Nobody whose words are canon*
Through shockwaves that we only see happen once, in the fight between goku and beerus specifically. Beerus and Champa clash and there are no shockwaves, Goku and Vegeta clash countless times with a lot of opponents and there are no shockwaves and so on.
It's a response to headcanon. Now you are headcanoning about how hakai works, trying to give it a completely new ability based on an ability it shouldn't have in the first placeMan what kinda response is this
My main argument is that the scans in the justification don't imply history erasure. The main argument is against the justification. Canon facts supporting my argument are just a bonus.
It is an "explanation" based entirely on the existence of an ability of hakai that shouldn't exist in the first place, required to have things make sense in case hakai has history erasure, but which is never even mentioned.and you just ignore it all and say “there’s no official confirmation of this, this is headcanon, this is never stated”. It doesn’t need to be stated, it is an explanation about how your view of history ee is incorrect and how it could still be history ee despite the fact people still remember zamasu
I said they aren't completely erased from history, thus memories of them as well as the actions they were doing before the time erasure are still there.
That is only a supporting argument to the main argument that hakai doesn't have history erasure because the scans don't support it.
Your explanation is headcanon required to make an ability that also doesn't exist work. So yeah, the argument that isn't sound is yours.
No? How tf did you come to that conclusion?
