Upgrading Human Soul

[Deleted member 16409]

Well, as we know it, our current Human Soul scale is based on Mettaton's 12k rating, which is basically the bare minimum for all of population, since there's absolute no way how Ruins gonna connect to MTT TV. Also, 13k is achievable, too.

But, here's where funny stuff begins. It is said that 1 Human Soul is greater than all of monster population SOULs. And for some reason, we decided to scale the monster themselves(for Ruin and Snowdin creatures), and not their soul.

It is common knowledge that Soul Power is DT(DeTermination), and that monsters aren't using full power of their soul or even unleashing them in first place. And we have only 1 instance of monster showcasing their DT, is Undyne The Undying, whose soul is far inferior than Asgore or Toriel's one, since she can't hold heir Soul after death(she lacks cutscene), which is considered one of the greatest monster DT feat in the Verse. So, that means that Undyne only unleashed her Soul Power, not that her DT is greater than Asgore's.

In Neutral for example, she couldn't do it and simply melts and dies, meaning that she cannot turn into Undying as she wishes, plus it adds the fact that her base isn't the peak of her SOUL level.

And since all of the monsters didn't unleashed their soul power, but it's surely there, meaning that it's better just to

TL;DR multiply 13.000×0.044 what will upgrade Human Soul to 572 tons.

Also add At Least, since this number doesn't include Ruin monsters.

 

[Greatsage13th]

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[Greatsage13th]

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[Deleted member 16409]

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[EliminatorVenom]

It makes sense. Idk about Undertale enough to say if there is any canon contradiction or whatever, but the arguments presented seem consistent.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

It makes sense. Idk about Undertale enough to say if there is any canon contradiction or whatever, but the arguments presented seem consistent.

It just confused my mind, the fact that they scaled 2k monsters from the Ruins from lowest 9-A feat, scaling from the monsters themselves and not their souls which actually all has same amount of power as others. Besides Asgore and Toriel of course.

And the fact that 12k monsters DOES NOT include Ruin monsters, but they proceeded anyway.

 

[Greatsage13th]

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[Deleted member 16409]

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[RinneItachi]

The Monster count is higher than 12,000 that's correct.

Soul power is not Determination. They are two different things. Determination INCREASES the power of a soul as well as a body and even magic, and is linked to the soul significantly, but it is not the embodiment of a soul's power. Most Monster's don't even have any traces of Determination and it needs to be given to them, which causes them to melt (the Amalgamates). Human's have it naturally, but Undyne is the only Monster confirmed to have been able to form it naturally as well. Even Flowey, who literally does not have a soul to begin with, still exists and has considerable power because of Determination. Soul power is connected to DT but they are not the same thing.

Undyne the Undying was formed because of Undyne's Determination, not because Undyne was using her "true power". Monster's don't have a true power, but their strength can be altered by their emotional states. If a Monster doesn't want to hurt someone and is in a pacified state, they are very weak, if they want to fight or intend to hurt and kill, their strength is higher, if they're bloodlusted, they'd be at full strength, but that's it. Goku is given a boost in power when he's angry, but being boosted means he's using more than his full available power under normal circumstances, not just using more power that he still had locked away. Undyne, in the same way, is being amplified by her Determination. No one below Undyne the Undying scales to her or ever will, she is straight-up stronger than Asgore by a significant margin. She would DESTROY him in a fight. In the same way that Frisk, with the power of our soul, can go from being capable of losing to a literal Froggit to being capable of fighting God Asriel with Determination. The main difference is the difficulty it takes to access that Determination.

The reason Asgore and Toriel last longer isn't because of their "power", it's because they're Boss Monster's. This was explicitly stated in the game. The goat-like Monster's such as in the Dreemurr family, Asgore, Toriel, and Asriel, are of a specific species of Monster quite literally called Boss Monster's, who are stronger than normal Monster's and whose souls last longer after death, naturally, as a result of what type of Monster they are and nothing else. Determination allowed Undyne to surpass their power significantly, even if it did not allow her soul to persist longer. The other special trait that Boss Monster's have is that they are not capable of aging if they don't have living offspring. Asgore and Toriel have been alive for at least centuries because of Asriel's death.

Furthermore, while it's true that the souls of all Monster's in the Underground only equates to one human soul, there is a very "iffy" correlation between the strength of a soul and attack potency. It's not necessarily a confirmed fact that a soul being stronger automatically makes a person's capability of attacking more potent. I mean, the whole thing with Undertale's power system is that it's based on emotions. Sans literally explains that the reason LOVE makes us stronger is specifically because it makes a person more willing to hurt. Willingness/desire to hurt causes characters in Undertale to be capable of doing more damage. There are a lot of nuances and it's just not as simple as saying "yeah this character is this strong cause soul xd".

I like this idea and I like what you're trying to do but just, nah.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

The Monster count is higher than 12,000 that's correct.

Soul power is not Determination. They are two different things. Determination INCREASES the power of a soul as well as a body and even magic, and is linked to the soul significantly, but it is not the embodiment of a soul's power. Most Monster's don't even have any traces of Determination and it needs to be given to them, which causes them to melt (the Amalgamates). Human's have it naturally, but Undyne is the only Monster confirmed to have been able to form it naturally as well. Even Flowey, who literally does not have a soul to begin with, still exists and has considerable power because of Determination. Soul power is connected to DT but they are not the same thing.

I will attack only this statement, because everything comes from This, and if debunked - other get debunked too.

• Soul power cannot be deprived from a living being.
• I found what gives their soul strength

Also the ancient glyphs which states that the reason why Human Soul and Monster Boss SOULs stays after death is their sheer power.

Which is apparently Determination.
Toby states that DT is the physical substance which humans produce naturally in huge amounts. And also the fact that it means DeTermination, not The power of will.

And the reason why Monster's souls are breaking instantly its because of them being so much inferior.

So again, DT is Soul Power(Alphys statement).

Yeah.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

And also, Monster's soul power is extremely hard to unleash(Alphys statement), so the reason of the experiment was in fact, to make their souls stronger.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I agree with Rinne.

Spoiler

I don't like the goku statement that much though as I have severe disagreements

 

[Deleted member 16409]

.

Where has Toby ever said any of this.
Determination is the power of will.

Bro look at Legends of Localisation where is Toby quote located

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Neither of those statements prove or necessarily even support your point, and also, you just gave two statements, you ignored the actual points I made to support this claim. And no, that's not the core of my argument either, refusing to address the other points is just laziness.

To address these in particular:

"Soul power cannot be deprived from a living being."
Relevance?

"I found what gives their soul strength"

Yes. Alphys is talking about what gives HUMAN souls strength, not Monster souls which operate on different rules. She literally says "their souls" not "souls" in general so...

Maybe so, but that still doesn't prove anything about Asgore being anywhere near Undyne the Undying in terms of attack potency and whatnot. Saying he scales above her because of this simple detail is a ridiculously huge reach. In fact, if it was true that Asgore's soul is stronger than Undyne the Undying's, that literally just succeeds in proving the other point I mentioned that soul power does not equate to overall power, which pretty much ruins the entire CRT you're arguing for. Asgore is not stronger than Undyne the Undying, she would objectively destroy him in a fight, so if Asgore's soul was more powerful somehow, that just means that a soul being stronger doesn't make its owner stronger inherently.

Where has Toby ever said any of this.
Determination is the power of will. Alphys literally says "The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination."". What you keep forgetting is that power in Undertale is extremely relevant to emotions. Like, emotions ARE power in this verse. Yes, Determination is still referring to the literal emotion called determination, but in Undertale's universe, Determination has a far more tangible significance than just being a feeling people get sometimes.

That doesn't mean they're weaker.

Asgore doesn't have Determination. It's literally stated that Monster's don't have Determination. The fact that Undyne made her own from sheer will power is supposed to be a crazy impressive feat because it shouldn't be possible. Determination boosts soul power, it doesn't compose it, you haven't proven this yet.

No.

Nuh uh.
First of all, you just run into mistakes instantly.
Starting from the fact that you're saying that "Monsters doesn't have Determination" which is unused Entry.

Also, Glyphs states that it's because of how weak Monster's souls are. And also the fact that Soul Power is pretty hard to unleash, and Glyphs mentioning that HSouls are much stronger(Toby says Human creates DT in large amounts naturally), MSouls are weak, besides Monster Bosses, and DT gives souls ability to not crash after death(Unabillity to die)((Toby quote)), so nuh uh.
Asgore DT >>>>> Undyne DT

 

[Deleted member 16409]

The Monster count is higher than 12,000 that's correct.

Soul power is not Determination. They are two different things. Determination INCREASES the power of a soul as well as a body and even magic, and is linked to the soul significantly, but it is not the embodiment of a soul's power. Most Monster's don't even have any traces of Determination and it needs to be given to them, which causes them to melt (the Amalgamates). Human's have it naturally, but Undyne is the only Monster confirmed to have been able to form it naturally as well. Even Flowey, who literally does not have a soul to begin with, still exists and has considerable power because of Determination. Soul power is connected to DT but they are not the same thing.

Undyne the Undying was formed because of Undyne's Determination, not because Undyne was using her "true power". Monster's don't have a true power, but their strength can be altered by their emotional states. If a Monster doesn't want to hurt someone and is in a pacified state, they are very weak, if they want to fight or intend to hurt and kill, their strength is higher, if they're bloodlusted, they'd be at full strength, but that's it. Goku is given a boost in power when he's angry, but being boosted means he's using more than his full available power under normal circumstances, not just using more power that he still had locked away. Undyne, in the same way, is being amplified by her Determination. No one below Undyne the Undying scales to her or ever will, she is straight-up stronger than Asgore by a significant margin. She would DESTROY him in a fight. In the same way that Frisk, with the power of our soul, can go from being capable of losing to a literal Froggit to being capable of fighting God Asriel with Determination. The main difference is the difficulty it takes to access that Determination.

The reason Asgore and Toriel last longer isn't because of their "power", it's because they're Boss Monster's. This was explicitly stated in the game. The goat-like Monster's such as in the Dreemurr family, Asgore, Toriel, and Asriel, are of a specific species of Monster quite literally called Boss Monster's, who are stronger than normal Monster's and whose souls last longer after death, naturally, as a result of what type of Monster they are and nothing else. Determination allowed Undyne to surpass their power significantly, even if it did not allow her soul to persist longer. The other special trait that Boss Monster's have is that they are not capable of aging if they don't have living offspring. Asgore and Toriel have been alive for at least centuries because of Asriel's death.

Furthermore, while it's true that the souls of all Monster's in the Underground only equates to one human soul, there is a very "iffy" correlation between the strength of a soul and attack potency. It's not necessarily a confirmed fact that a soul being stronger automatically makes a person's capability of attacking more potent. I mean, the whole thing with Undertale's power system is that it's based on emotions. Sans literally explains that the reason LOVE makes us stronger is specifically because it makes a person more willing to hurt. Willingness/desire to hurt causes characters in Undertale to be capable of doing more damage. There are a lot of nuances and it's just not as simple as saying "yeah this character is this strong cause soul xd".

I like this idea and I like what you're trying to do but just, nah.

Please, use actual quotes now, not just saying some, ignoring others and then proceeding to "prove your point" using the arguments you collected.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Please don't reply to arguments separately.

I also do it sometimes though

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Never liked the Asgore has more DT than Undyne thing, Undying technically counts as persisting after death, Undyne just keeps her body too

 

[RinneItachi]

Never liked the Asgore has more DT than Undyne thing, Undying technically counts as persisting after death, Undyne just keeps her body too

It makes no sense at all to begin with. Asgore does not have Determination. He just doesn't lol. It's very explicitly referenced as something that only humans and specific Monster's have access to and is considered a literally alien concept to the species of Monster's before the experiments and research conducted by Alphys. Monster's, DO NOT, have Determination. Undyne having her own DT naturally without it being injected is supposed to be something special to her and the idea that Asgore has more DT is severely undermining Undyne as a character.

 

[RinneItachi]

If Asgore did have DT though he'd probably be crazy strong.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Monster's do not have Determination. That is a fact. It is stated, shown, and hinted at many times, and nothing ever contradicts it at any point in the game. At most, it's NAYBE implied that Monster's have a very, very, very small amount of it naturally, but not enough for it to mean anything. Undyne forming her own DT is supposed to be something impressive and special. You don't get what DT is and how it works, and the fact that you're extrapolating it to be the entire power that composes a soul is gargantuanly contradicted by many things in the game. You ignored the majority of what I said in regards to this point.

Nah. Determination and determination are 2 different things. One being the power of will, and second being the substance of Soul.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Never liked the Asgore has more DT than Undyne thing, Undying technically counts as persisting after death, Undyne just keeps her body too

She didn't really died though.
Since LV gets higher only when souls crashes, and in most of the cases, soul crashes when body gets evaporated as soul is too weak.

Undyne on an another hand didn't really got fully turned into dust. She was about to do it, but resisted.

Yet, her Soul is still weaker than Asgore's.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

If Asgore did have DT though he'd probably be crazy strong.

Bro really doesn't want to live

Asgore commits self kill in one of the endings.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

We don't gain LV once Toriel's body dusts

because I meant that LV gets after death, and by it i meant soul crash. Since regural Monster's soul are weak af they just get crashed instantly after dusting

, so don't see why we can't just take Undying as her persisting after dying

She didn't really died, she more like persisted before death

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Boss Monsters wouldn't count as dying then due to their SOUL persisting for a few seconds

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Boss Monsters wouldn't count as dying then due to their SOUL persisting for a few seconds

I think that they die two times, as it is mentioned that dusting = death, and soul crush is death too.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

I concede that Determination and the simple emotion of determination are two different things in a literal sense, however they're still connected clearly.

Besides that very minor point though which was not the crutch of my argument, none of this contradicts anything I've said. On the contrary, note how in this very image Toby quite literally says "that humans produce naturally in large quantities". Monster's don't have Determination, or at least not enough for it to be significance, including Asgore. Humans have it and Undyne being able to produce it by herself is extremely special to her as a character.

It contradicts every word of your, since its now VERY clear that Holding SOUL is the DT, which was implied by Alphys herself. You clearly didn't even read True Lab, since she even implies that she wants to Monster's soul last, so she used DT to make them last(experiment failed), yet, Monster Bosses soul lasts through the power. You just cripple over the same mistake over and over again.
Say that again, buddy. Yet, Undyne's ass ain't even getting to Undying without trigger, yet if you're correct then why Undyne ain't walking around with 99atk all the time? Isn't that unleashing of DT?

soul lasting = soul power
Reason why soul last = dt
Dt is produced by humans in huge amount. If you were correct, Toby would say that it's commonly produced by humans in general, not in amounts bruh.

You're fighting against the game now.

Let's say that Undyne the Undying's soul is weaker for a second. In what world does that mean Asgore scales above her? You can say this as much as you want and use as much evidence as necessary, but there is no reason to claim that it makes Asgore more powerful in terms of actual combat ability and combat statistics, which he very blatantly is not. Undyne's stats are higher in both the game and the files, her HP is higher, she fights a version of Frisk that could one-shot Asgore and puts up a hell of a fight, and so on and so forth. He literally just isn't as strong as her let alone above her. Undyne the Undying destroys him.

Of course! His ass is suicidal wth you even talking about

 

[RinneItachi]

Lol. Okay. Good luck with this one.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Lol. Okay.

No seriously how do you expect Asgore to be in current form much much stronger than Undyne, like, he literally killed himself in one of the endings, there's a whole cutscene for that

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Missing my entire point and also Asgore's "current form" is his only form and the only form he will ever have in the game. Undyne isn't using her "true power" she is being amplified. No Monster's scale to her in any way shape or form.

Its simply the souls, it really ain't affecting monsters themselves though.

Im using Undyne to prove the fact that monster's aren't in their peak 24/7, and even Undyne is getting upgraded only ij specific situation after exploiting her soul to absolute.

Anyways I'm sorry but this CRT ain't going anywhere my guy. The general main point/argument is basically a theory loosely supported by certain text that has been interpreted in a specific context. CRT's rarely get through with just that much going for them. Was a good try though.

R u sure?