undertale's multiverse and possible 2-C upgrades

[Justkillme42069]

idk if this was discussed in a previous thread already and I'm far too lazy to try and check, so here we go

for people who dunno what the piss a fun value is, from what I understand it's basically a random number generator thing built into the game that goes from 1 to 100 and it picks another random number every time you reset and depending on what fun value you get, a random, minor event could happen that wouldn't happen "normally"

here's also a handy dandy chart for the different possible events for each fun value (the blank spaces are just nothing different happens)

now what we'll be looking at first is goner kid's dialogue when you meet him

it's pretty obvious that he's referencing fun values themselves
in any fun value between 1-90, the world is basically the same except goner kid doesn't exist, and everything indeed functions perfectly without him

what's most important here is how his language implies that a fun value that doesn't have his event would be a separate "world" from the one where he does exist, and it seems to be accepted that most or all uses of the word "world" in undertale are actually referring to the timeline

in case you're skeptical since goner kid might not actually know this stuff (he probably does let's be real), there's also at least how sans says timelines as a plural in this dialogue, and it's pretty obvious that sans does indeed know about this kinda stuff

I'm pretty sure there's also a scene where flowey, who would know more about this stuff than anyone else probably, says that everyone is "ripped from this timeline" when frisk resets or something like that, but I don't have the scans for that and I can't find them rn

but anyways, if this fun value stuff is true, that means undertale's verse is a multiverse consisting of 100 space-time continuums, and the resulting changes would be the following:

• annoying dog would be upgraded to 2-C since he created undertale's verse, which would contain 100 space-time continuums
• chara would maybe be upgraded to 2-C as well since it seems to be accepted they destroyed the entire game, which would mean they blew up 100 space-time continuums at once with one smack, but chara only talks about erasing "this world" so it could just be the one they're currently in that they're blowing up
• frisk would get limited dimensional travel since they move to a random one of these 100 timelines every time they reset, limited since it's out of their control which one they go to (unless the player pulls some strings)

prolly something else I'm not thinking of rn whatever, DISCUSS

 

[QuasiYuri]

It was already discussed a lot of times, including UT downgrade thread.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh not again...

 

[Bernkastelll]

the UT downgrade doesnt makes sense, Sans himself stated that there has different timelines, where is the thread?

 

[Bernkastelll]

the UT downgrade doesnt makes sense, Sans himself stated that there has different timelines, where is the thread?

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

Sans pretty much explains how timelines work through his dialogue, but he tells the human as to how they keep consuming timelines... By resetting. The implication would be that "consuming multiple timelines" would be "one at a time", not "all at once":

 

[Bernkastelll]

Sans pretty much explains how timelines work through his dialogue, but he tells the human as to how they keep consuming timelines... By resetting. The implication would be that "consuming multiple timelines" would be "one at a time", not "all at once":

Try to find when did I said that it would be all at once, because u wont find it, I was saying that Undertale cosmology is not only Low 2-C as how it is currently rated

 

[Justkillme42069]

The implication would be that "consuming multiple timelines" would be "one at a time", not "all at once":

yeah, that makes sense, but that doesn't change the fact undertale's verse definitely has multiple timelines in it, likely 100 for the fun values, which is mainly what this thread is about

 

[Bernkastelll]

but that doesn't change the fact undertale's verse definitely has multiple timelines in it, likely 100 for the fun values, which is mainly what this thread is about

this ^

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

Try to find when did I said that it would be all at once, because u wont find it, I was saying that Undertale cosmology is not Low 2-C only as how it is currently rated

Oh, my bad. I saw the "2-C upgrade" and jumped into conclusions.

yeah, that makes sense, but that doesn't change the fact undertale's verse definitely has multiple timelines in it, likely 100 for the fun values, which is mainly what this thread is about

Huh, I suppose those small differences between worlds could count, especially considering that Deltarune does something similar to distinguish the save files.

 

[Eficiente]

Reading and understanding the blog linked in the UT profiles clarifies why this doesn't make sense. I can have patience and explain and deconstruct everything there in even more detail, but this thread pushes an upgrade w/o having seen the blog and tackling many things already covered at once, it's a mess.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Send the blog

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

Send the blog

I think it's probably this:

Undertale: Misconceptions

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Justkillme42069]

I think it's probably this:

Undertale: Misconceptions

vsbattles.fandom.com

can someone just put a summary here with all the most important parts pls? that's longer than the length of time I sat on the toilet grunting when I was constipated at school

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

can someone just put a summary here with all the most important parts pls? that's longer than the length of time I sat on the toilet grunting when I was constipated at school

It's always best to read stuff for yourself, but basically, from what I could gather, is that "one at a time" scenario. I believe these are some of the excerpts from the document in regards of Goner Kid:

[Goner kid] could be referencing how sometimes a player may or may not see [them] with this much being canon and working like it really does; you play the game, you may or may not find certain things and if someone else plays the game then they may or may not find certain other things, without there being other data inside the game with copies of everything one's doing for each fun value, just 1 per playing the game, in 1 timeline.

As the last thing I said, [they] could be referencing what the fun values do to the game with it being canon, and this time with a reset changing the number also being canon, this making "another timeline", but not as in "now 2 timelines exist", but as the same 1 timeline having been changed. Hence fitting with everything the game brings about there only being 1 timeline.

 

[Justkillme42069]

It's always best to read stuff for yourself, but basically, from what I could gather, is that "one at a time" scenario. I believe these are some of the excerpts from the document in regards of Goner Kid:

I think I get what he means?
from what I understand there could be three interpretations of the fun value stuff

1. all 100 fun values/timelines exist simultaneously, and frisk('s consciousness) and the other characters travel to a random one each time they reset (would make annoying dog 2-C and give frisk limited dimensional travel)
2. every time frisk resets, another timeline is created and the fun values are possible minor differences that each timeline could have from the original aside from differences frisk manually creates just by doing different stuff, and whether the previous timeline still exists or not doesn't really matter (would make frisk low 2-C via resetting lol)
3. every time frisk resets, the timeline has a possibility of having a minor difference for an unknown reason and that's all, nothing involving other timelines (eficiente's view, could give frisk extremely limited reality warping via resetting lol)

honestly each of these probably has about an equal possibility of being true, but referring back to the fact sans does say timelines with a plural and he obviously knows about this stuff, I think there can't just be one timeline in undertale's verse, and not just that, the "consuming timelines over and over" thing means frisk, the player or chara, who cares, can affect multiple timelines, whether it's one at a time or multiple (it's one at a time), whether multiple exist at once or they're being created by frisk/player/chara

either the first or second interpretation is probably correct, I don't think it can just be one timeline

also, disregarding in-universe questions about whether goner kid even knows this or is just talking about random creepy thoughts, I just think it's pretty obvious that toby as the game's creator is trying to use goner kid's dialogue to imply the existence of alternate timelines in the undertale verse

could you also summarize or quote the main reasoning for the other stuff the game supposedly brings about there only being 1 timeline?

 

[Eficiente]

You can't lack the time to read the blog yet have the time to set an upgrade and have others talk about it, and this isn't even the only UT thread you have opened. Wait until having time to organize things better and read things on your own w/o others giving incomplete summaries. You can't get things moving for an upgrades while lacking the reasons for it first.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree with Efi on that last one

 

[Justkillme42069]

fine i'll read the whole long-ass thing grumble grumble

 

[Eficiente]

Just read the parts that talk about what you may want to use as evidence for 2-C, not everything.

 

[Justkillme42069]

so there's no disproving of anything in the goner kid section, not even attempts at disproving anything from what I can see
it's just listing other interpretations of what he said and saying that it's not absolutely solid that he's referencing fun values, although him referencing fun values makes the most sense/is the most likely in my opinion, especially considering that he himself is a fun value event
the part about "maybe he does reference fun values but they're just not canon" is also pretty useless, there's no reason to say they just aren't canon and admittedly it's probably not solid that they are canon either although it's very likely they are

why did Asriel only want to destroy the timeline?

I don't think he did, "You know... I don't care about destroying this world anymore." is his first line of dialogue in his boss fight
his goals were only to erase frisk's and everyone else's memories and to go back in time to relive his childhood with chara, him causing the timeline to slowly end was probably more just something he felt he had to resort to in order to get rid of frisk, or even just a power flex to make us feel hopeless and therefore less powerful since frisk's determination to win is the source of their power

Why did he, or he as Flowey or Chara never brought up wanting to destroy other timelines when they know more than Goner Kid?

nothing says they know more than goner kid lol (/s kinda)
I'm pretty sure chara didn't really want to destroy the timeline(s), it was just something they did to flex that they're the one in control now and a way to get our soul by using our access to the game as a ransom hostage of sorts
there wouldn't even be a point for flowey to destroy/terrorize the other timelines, each of them has an extremely minor difference at the absolute best, going to the other timelines and nuking them would be effectively the same as nuking and reloading the same timeline 100 times, and the only thing flowey truly wants is to appease his own sadistic desires and to otherwise entertain himself, he just feels that destroying the world and torturing people is fun basically, no point in going all the way to an alternate universe to do that to the exact same people and nearly the exact same world, even less so if they're just wastelands like the post claims they'd be

This world that's the same surely has its own Frisk, the guy who fixes the world, but more solid dialogue from Sans tells us that the "anomaly" is a notable part on what they do, with later Chara talking to the player and the latter being implied to be that anomaly, so why would this other timelines have their own anomaly in the space-time continuum or function without it?

frisk is the anomaly if anyone, nothing implies that the player is
other than that, I'm not entirely sure what this part means but I'm guessing this is questioning if the other timelines could have their own "player" or if they function without a "player", and I honestly dunno how to respond to that

Why was the power Frisk stopped from Asriel the power to reset the timeline as stated by Flowey when he not subtlety claimed that he wanted to mess up everyone?

I'm not even sure what this means

the alphys part, again, has no disproving of anything, even the first thing it claims is that her words just aren't absolute confirmation

Her research consists of watching anime as well, and she believes Mew Mew Kissy Cutie is out there, in an alternate universe. Taking her word on that is as reasonable as accepting her claims that humans go around with giant swords and mechas.

she knows that the manga she reads and the anime she watches aren't actually documents of human history, she was just lying to make undyne think she's cool doing research and shit when she's actually just reading comics and watching tv in her free time and she knows fully well that's all she's doing, she doesn't actually consider it to be research

undyne is the one who genuinely thought and claimed that humans have giant swords and mechas, not alphys

in the linked cutscene, she says that she has done research on alternate universes and that maybe someday she could visit those alternate universes
regardless of how much of a weeb and how comic relief-ey she is (which isn't much), she is a scientist and she isn't an idiot like you guys seem to be making her out to be, we shouldn't forget that
mettaton says that she also said that maybe she could meet the MMKC characters, which was likely not actually serious and just her fangirling, since she also explicitly acknowledges that anime and anime characters aren't real in the cutscene I linked earlier
nothing says that she actually thinks MMKC is a real alternate universe (just pressed back on the video with that cutscene and mettaton does basically say that actually (you should've had the link start at that part), but still, alphys blatantly acknowledges that anime isn't real in a later cutscene, and also mettaton seems to be trying as hard as he can to embarrass alphys, so it's likely he's exaggerating her thoughts or even just wording them weirdly)

there's also how sans says "our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum" and the "our" could be him and alphys' reports, which would confirm that alphys indeed did serious research on alternate universes/timelines and did indeed discover that they exist, but that's just a theory, a very plausible theory but a theory nonetheless

I might talk about the whole "SAVEs being timelines, Resets leaving behind timelines based on other evidence" part later, but I don't feel like it rn and I just wanna post this reply now

 

[Eficiente]

so there's no disproving of anything in the goner kid section, not even attempts at disproving anything from what I can see
it's just listing other interpretations of what he said and saying that it's not absolutely solid that he's referencing fun values, although him referencing fun values makes the most sense/is the most likely in my opinion, especially considering that he himself is a fun value event
the part about "maybe he does reference fun values but they're just not canon" is also pretty useless, there's no reason to say they just aren't canon and admittedly it's probably not solid that they are canon either although it's very likely they are

Some random event that could happen in a game that often breaks the 4° wall can make a reference of it itself being a random event w/o the event itself being a canon thing the cosmology has going for in the form of many timelines, just as many things that could happen while all in 1 timeline, it's not "useless", it makes perfect sense but just doesn't help your upgrade, and likewise you're not seeing how logical the other takes are. Even if we ignore how likely Goner Kid was to refer to your speculation, fun values being canon needs prove of that being the case and there's still solid evidence against it.

I don't think he did, "You know... I don't care about destroying this world anymore." is his first line of dialogue in his boss fight
his goals were only to erase frisk's and everyone else's memories and to go back in time to relive his childhood with chara, him causing the timeline to slowly end was probably more just something he felt he had to resort to in order to get rid of frisk, or even just a power flex to make us feel hopeless and therefore less powerful since frisk's determination to win is the source of their power

Headcanons to support speculation, he even says that he will purge the timeline right before doing it, you legit can't say that didn't want to do it. Objectively speaking Asriel only wanted to destroy the timeline when it came to what he wanted to destroy, and that was despite having Chara's view on the world, it doesn't matter what non-destructive things he was going to do next this is the destructive thing he aims to do.

nothing says they know more than goner kid lol (/s kinda) I'm pretty sure chara didn't really want to destroy the timeline(s), it was just something they did to flex that they're the one in control now and a way to get our soul by using our access to the game as a ransom hostage of sorts

This is trolling, you know that Asriel destroyed the timeline and claimed he will do it right before it but he didn't want to do it, and Chara destroyed the game and claimed they would destroy the world right before it but they didn't want to do it too, and they were both unlucky things due to circumstances and petty reasons behind it that by an insane stretch means that they didn't mean to do whay they did. You legit can't say that Chara's actions weren't willing but only a means to do their next actions, Chara wanted to destroy the game and then also wanted to get our soul because that's what Chara did and there's no evidence implying otherwise. Chara sees the world as pointless, killing things makes them grow in power, and they like to grow in power, and they like to kill things too, you legit cannot believe that they didn't destroy everything there was by wanting to do it.

there wouldn't even be a point for flowey to destroy/terrorize the other timelines, each of them has an extremely minor difference at the absolute best, going to the other timelines and nuking them would be effectively the same as nuking and reloading the same timeline 100 times, and the only thing flowey truly wants is to appease his own sadistic desires and to otherwise entertain himself, he just feels that destroying the world and torturing people is fun basically, no point in going all the way to an alternate universe to do that to the exact same people and nearly the exact same world, even less so if they're just wastelands like the post claims they'd be

I'm not on the same page as whatever headcanon you have built there, no one's meant to know why would timelines now not only exist but have people in there, let alone how would that fit with the Save and Load powers. And who knows why would Flowey even go and terrorize other timelines, is that in some popular UT fanfic or something? That has nothing to do with anything the game has. It doesn't matter how you don't see the point of Flowey destroying other timelines because the point of what he did remains while he had the view of the world he had, and he only wanted to destroy 1 timeline. Saying that the timelines would be much the same as the reason he didn't destroy them doesn't make sense, he's a murder who goes as far as to destroy the timeline, if he can destroy more then it remains as a question why doesn't he. "Going to the other timelines and nuking them would be effectively the same as nuking and reloading the same timeline 100 times" is false as the latter is just killing the same over and over while leaving others alive and the former kills more and more. You are the one making up and setting a limit to what Flowey wants when as far as we know it was the same as what Chara wanted, which you are also the one setting a limit to what they want. The other timelines being wastelands is not really something to recognize as a "could be", it's just to point out just dumb it would be for other timelines to exist given its implications.

other than that, I'm not entirely sure what this part means but I'm guessing this is questioning if the other timelines could have their own "player" or if they function without a "player", and I honestly dunno how to respond to that

You already showed it but here you once again claim there're other timelines w/o knowing the how of they, how they would be and how they work against the other things the game implied. It's just 1 big "whichever way works idk, all of them minus whatever doesn't work and I claim them all". What was even the point of reading the blog?

I'm not even sure what this means

Flowey claimed he wanted to show everyone the real meaning of this world, killing them all just like Chara, but then what he really wanted to do had nothing to do with other timelines.

the alphys part, again, has no disproving of anything, even the first thing it claims is that her words just aren't absolute confirmation

she knows that the manga she reads and the anime she watches aren't actually documents of human history, she was just lying to make undyne think she's cool doing research and shit when she's actually just reading comics and watching tv in her free time and she knows fully well that's all she's doing, she doesn't actually consider it to be research

undyne is the one who genuinely thought and claimed that humans have giant swords and mechas, not alphys

in the linked cutscene, she says that she has done research on alternate universes and that maybe someday she could visit those alternate universes
regardless of how much of a weeb and how comic relief-ey she is (which isn't much), she is a scientist and she isn't an idiot like you guys seem to be making her out to be, we shouldn't forget that
mettaton says that she also said that maybe she could meet the MMKC characters, which was likely not actually serious and just her fangirling, since she also explicitly acknowledges that anime and anime characters aren't real in the cutscene I linked earlier
nothing says that she actually thinks MMKC is a real alternate universe (just pressed back on the video with that cutscene and mettaton does basically say that actually (you should've had the link start at that part), but still, alphys blatantly acknowledges that anime isn't real in a later cutscene, and also mettaton seems to be trying as hard as he can to embarrass alphys, so it's likely he's exaggerating her thoughts)

It's a very organized thing to make something out of this.

there's also how sans says "our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum" and the "our" could be him and alphys' reports, which would confirm that alphys indeed did serious research on alternate universes/timelines and did indeed discover that they exist, but that's just a theory, a very plausible theory but a theory nonetheless

You have been doing this for a while, look a your text and see how you jump from an "our" in Sans' text to Alphys being part of it and having done legit reserch about timelines as "a very plausible theory". You don't know whom did he mean by "our", therefore it doesn't matter, end of the story. You don't jump into more and more headcanons and claim the last one to be very plausible, that's not how it works, even if it was Alphys that doesn't mean their reports do anything beyond the timespace continuum, nor that she did reserch about other timelines, nor that her comment about it is meant to be taken as legit, and nor that those timelines would be part of UT as the game Chara destroyed.

I might talk about the whole "SAVEs being timelines, Resets leaving behind timelines based on other evidence" part later, but I don't feel like it rn and I just wanna post this reply now

Do you still want this thread open? Many comments into it and I still don't know what do you want, how so and based on what. Would would-be plausible theories be part of the texts in a possible 2-C AP in profiles?