Touhou Tier 1 Revision

[OnsokunoSonic]

Hello. Let's get to the point.

The Nature of Otherworlds

According to physicists who can see hallucinations, this world is supposedly composed of very thin membranes, and a great many of them.

I became able to see it. A world where youkai live even now." "Perhaps that could be another brane world..." "Another what?" "Oh, just one of the worlds only physicists can see.

So it's pretty clear that it is a 4th dimensional brane world, a whole universe. There are otherworlds that are infinite in size, two of them is Heaven and the Netherworld. And since the world is infinite, then there's infinite truths (infinite concepts). How is that? Because Akyuu said that if the world is infinite, then there's infinite truths, is the Netherworld infinite? Yes, so it has infinite truths.

The Dream World

Yes, I will talk about the Dream World, again. So there are 3 layers of world (each one is deeper than the last) that makes up the world.

First is the physical layer that moves in accordance with the laws of physics, including all living things, objects, etc. It is on this layer that an object falls towards the ground, and that the water of the river flows

The second layer is one that moves with the spirit, which includes things such as magic and sorcery, the mental layer. One's mood turning sour when meeting an unpleasant person, and releasing all your stress and cares during a party lie here. Since most youkai can control the world through both the physical and mental layers, they say that history repeats itself and the future is predetermined as a prank.

But according to Reimu, there is a third layer that rejects loops. The third layer is the layer of memory, which is the recollection of events that lies within all things. Since it's only possible to add to the memory layer, it's impossible to completely recreate the past. If something were to happen that already occurred in the past, then there would be a contradiction because that would imply that memory was lost, which is impossible. The memory layer always continues to build up.

Now, the dream world are capable of holding the Heaven and the Netherworld as a finite part of itself. Which has been shown to contain infinite truths (infinite concepts). Not only that, the Dream World is stated to be "beyond the veil of our world".

Yes I know that what Mamizou is referring is fate which is obviously referring to the probability layer (Because the probability layer is fate itself, or you can even say it directly referencing to the Dream World since the Dream World "explain the outcome"). But, the point is that deeper layer world are stated to be something beyond this layer of the world. Not only that since the Dream World is capable of holding brane worlds as "facets" of itself and exist on a different plane, then we can safely say that the Dream World is a bulk. And the Dream World act as a "background" for the dream universe to exist too, no matter how many or how big the universes are, it will never fully occupy the Dream World

Dream World Counter Argument

"The Dreamworld is only a normal otherworld"
First of all, there's no such a thing as "normal" otherworld, since the term otherworld refers to world other than ours, so of course the Dream World fall under that term. Second, why would a "normal" otherworld be fundamental to the system of existence, if it's a "normal" otherworld then why don't Reimu talk about Netherworld or Heaven instead. Yes, because it's not normal. Third, it has been stated to exist on a different layer of the world, what kind of "normal" otherworld does that? Sounds nitpicking to me.

Probability Layer

Nothing much to add other than it exist beyond our world therefore scale higher than the Dream World

TL;DR
Base Universe/Multiverse= 2-B
The Mental Plane=Low 1-C
Memory Layer= Low 1-C

Scaling

Doremy=The Dream World<Reimu<The rest (I'm pretty sure someone has sort out the scaling chain(?))<Primordial Gods

Thank You.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Bump.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

TOO SOON MAN

TOO ******' SOON

Will read in a moment, but.... Based on the length alone I'm not confident in this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Real quick though. You recall the last revision, where Ant proposed a discussion rule banning tier 1 upgrades for Touhou, yes?

Knowing that, should this fail, you are posing the risk of permanently barring discussion of this topic, are you 100% sure you still want to do this?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Hello. Let's get to the point.

The Nature of Otherworlds




So it's pretty clear that it is a 4th dimensional brane world, a whole universe. There are otherworlds that are infinite in size, two of them is Heaven and the Netherworld. And since the world is infinite, then there's infinite truths (infinite concepts). How is that? Because Akyuu said that if the world is infinite, then there's infinite truths, is the Netherworld infinite? Yes, so it has infinite truths.

Yes, okay, low 2-C Hell/Netherworld. That's fine. So is the infinite truths stuff. But... what exactly makes truth a concept here? It is quite literally information that dictates reality, a very blatant case of type 2 information. Regardless, I don't even see the relevance of infinite truths. Like, literally what part of this is supposed to prove tier 1?

Yes, I will talk about the Dream World, again. So there are 3 layers of world (each one is deeper than the last) that makes up the world.

...No. What implies that these layers are qualitatively superior to one another in any way?

Now, the dream world are capable of holding the Heaven and the Netherworld as a finite part of itself. Which has been shown to contain infinite truths (infinite concepts).

This is the only thing I see that could suggest low 1-C. To my knowledge (and I would like confirmation of this from tiering experts), a space-time that contains other space-times that are at least low 2-C in extent does qualify as low 1-C. There are infinite dreams present in Touhou's cosmology (which I will elaborate on if needed, but I was planning on saving that for future upgrades), so each low 2-C dream exists as only an infinitesimal fraction of the Dream World.

TL;DR: Low 1-C Dream World is fine.

Not only that, the Dream World is stated to be "beyond the veil of our world".

Yes I know that what Mamizou is referring is fate which is obviously referring to the probability layer (Because the probability layer is fate itself, or you can even say it directly referencing to the Dream World since the Dream World "explain the outcome"). But, the point is that deeper layer world are stated to be something beyond this layer of the world. Not only that since the Dream World is capable of holding brane worlds as "facets" of itself and exist on a different plane, then we can safely say that the Dream World is a bulk. And the Dream World act as a "background" for the dream universe to exist too, no matter how many or how big the universes are, it will never fully occupy the Dream World

...What? If this were referring to the Dream World, I would use this as minor supporting evidence. But by itself, it means nothing in terms of superiority, as it could just as easily be referring to how the Dream World exists "outside" the physical layer, which does not imply qualitative superiority.

But even so, this is clearly in reference to the memory layer. The Dream World is directly stated to be the mental layer, and both act identically in function, acting as the collective unconscious of humanity. Thus, this panel is irrelevant to the mental layer's tier.

Probability Layer

Nothing much to add other than it exist beyond our world therefore scale higher than the Dream World

Doesn't this directly contradict your last point lmao

You say Mamizou was referring to the memory layer, but also the Dream World, so they're being treated as equal there, but the memory layer also scales above the Dream World despite being equal to it(?)

Scaling

Doremy=The Dream World<Reimu<The rest (I'm pretty sure someone has sort out the scaling chain(?))<Primordial Gods

What the **** is this scaling.... You have done nothing to explain how Doremy scales to the entire Dream World. You can't just... say that shit and expect people to go "yeah okay that checks out". The rest is mostly fine, albeit lazy, but primordial gods scaling above everyone else is wack. We have very little to compare them to, except maybe Junko based on how her existence is basically that of a primordial god.

Anyways, I think low 1-C is fine based on how the Dream World embeds Otherworlds as infinitesimal fractions of itself, and I can try and work out the arguments for scaling later. There are only 2 methods of scaling though, so don't expect much better than a 'possibly' rating.

My offer to just close the thread before we get hit with a discussion rule still stands btw.

 

[Shmooply]

Just like with the previous tier 1 Touhou CRT, this thread feels rushed and doesn't have that many things that prove tier 1 Touhou in the first place. I agree with Mokou's points.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

plz just let me finish my tier 1 thread in peace i prommy im working on it and am definitely not procrastinating

 

[NIK_FARIS]

I feel like this should be wait little longer. I knows there a lot evidence for Touhou to meet tier 1 but this thread feel too rush. It better to compile all evidences and make proper cosmology so that people understand and it easily been receive. So, yeah agree with Mokou’s point.

 

[ÆONS]

Agreed with Mokou. Please have this thread closed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Should I wait for more input on this matter, or go ahead and ask for it to be closed?

 

[ÆONS]

Should I wait for more input on this matter, or go ahead and ask for it to be closed?

You can go ask for it to be closed and open up another discussion on the matter in the future when we'd have more time to do so.