Touhou Page Cleanup & Creation

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Touhou Project on this wiki has fallen behind, particularly for the games released since 2017. With limited contributors and hands on-site, the coverage and consistency of Touhou character pages are lacking. Help is needed and much appreciated for any who can spare the time.

The purpose of this project is to (in order of priority):

1. Create new pages for characters currently missing profiles (listed below).
   
   
2. Organize the contents of pages consistently, ensuring all profiles follow a standard format for abilities and reference sections.
   
   
3. Discuss contradictions present in profiles, missing scans, physiologies, layers, hax, and general verse-specific things such as our UES/Spirit Manipulation page.

The characters that do not possess pages currently are:

Spoiler: Character List

Character	Debut Game
Urumi Ushizaki	Touhou 17: Wily Beast and Weakest Creature
Yachie Kicchou	Touhou 17: Wily Beast and Weakest Creature
Mayumi Joutouguu	Touhou 17: Wily Beast and Weakest Creature
Saki Kurokoma	Touhou 17: Wily Beast and Weakest Creature
Mike Goutokuji	Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
Takane Yamashiro	Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
Sannyo Komakusa	Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
Misumaru Tamatsukuri	Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
Tsukasa Kudamaki	Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
Megumu Iizunamaru	Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
Chimata Tenkyuu	Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
Momoyo Himemushi	Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
Son Biten	Touhou 19: Unfinished Dream of All Living Ghost
Enoko Mitsugashira	Touhou 19: Unfinished Dream of All Living Ghost
Chiyari Tenkajin	Touhou 19: Unfinished Dream of All Living Ghost
Hisami Yomotsu	Touhou 19: Unfinished Dream of All Living Ghost
Zanmu Nippaku	Touhou 19: Unfinished Dream of All Living Ghost
Ubame Chirizuka	Touhou 20: Fossilized Wonders
Chimi Houjuu	Touhou 20: Fossilized Wonders
Nareko Michigami	Touhou 20: Fossilized Wonders
Yuiman Asama	Touhou 20: Fossilized Wonders
Ariya Iwanaga	Touhou 20: Fossilized Wonders
Nina Watari	Touhou 20: Fossilized Wonders

As for the current to-do list of revisions as discussed in this thread:

• Ariya has a page under her mythological name Iwanagahime that may have to be revamped due to the title.
• Justifications for Reimu's duplication; ends at post #14.
• Remove Class 5 LS from fairly frail human characters such as Akyuu & Kosuzu who don't scale to Cirno.
• Replace LS on the Fairies page with Varies.
• Byakuren might not have literally been moving stars; revamp LS unless she scales to those who have more solid similar feats.
• Determine the age of gods, both before and after receiving Names/being incarnated into more limited forms. Refer to Symposium of Post-Mysticism.
• Distinguish Gods from Divine Spirits, as Divine Spirits are not part of the Eight Million and have no connection to them. Refer to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Following

 

[Diabul]

Ariya technically has a page under her mythological name Iwanagahime.

Do we ditch the page? Its name can't be changed, right?

 

[Steve1775]

Hmmm. Ill try to see if I can help in a way

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Ariya technically has a page under her mythological name Iwanagahime.

Do we ditch the page? Its name can't be changed, right?

I want to say we should address that once we finally address the Purity/Impurity Info Type 2 scans. Metaphysical aspects like that require mandatory staff evaluation, iirc.

Since a handful of the casts interacts with Purity/impurity in some way, I think a dedicated blog on Purity/Impurity will be a good step in making her profile. That, or drafting a justification that can be used on all pages, with all relevant scans parenthesis'd in.

As for the existing profile there, we can keep it as is for now and address it once we have Info Type 2 cleared. Since that is her ability and now many other character's (i.e, Junko, every fairy, Kaguya, definetly all the shrine maidens, etc, etc.)

Edit: I'll share the relevant scans on that later today. I've been eager about talking justifications.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Reimu's profile has no scans regarding her duplication and it's writed like this:

"Can create doubles of herself"

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Reimu's profile has no scans regarding her duplication and it's writed like this:

I'm not really sure where it originates myself.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I'm not really sure where it originates myself.

Maybe you should try checking old Fujiwara threads.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

I'm not really sure where it originates myself.

It is taken from GoM, where Reimu explains to Marisa about having a spell card that makes people see countless copies of herself, though, isn't that perception manip?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

It is taken from GoM, where Reimu explains to Marisa about having a spell card that makes people see countless copies of herself, though, isn't that perception manip?

I've gathered that it also comes from one of the fighting games. She apparently throws ofuda and makes a body double out of it. Need to figure out which one it is.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

countless copies of herself, though, isn't that perception manip?

I will note that Duplex Barrier has also demonstrated this before, though we usually only see it applied to Danmaku.

I would argue that the analogy of comparing the duplicates to a mirror is better understood through the perspective of a 3-torus. It seems more akin to a spatial reflection or duplication rather than one produced by ordinary light. The mirror analogy, in that sense, appears to support this interpretation. It also uses boundaries to achieve that effect.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

I've gathered that it also comes from one of the fighting games. She apparently throws ofuda and makes a body double out of it. Need to figure out which one it is.

I used to believe that scene in Memories of Phantasm where Reimu is hit by Sakuya's knives and then turns into a shred of ofudas was something made up...

 

[SomeJJJJ]

3-torus.

3-TORUS!?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

3-TORUS!?

Well, there you have it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Organize our P&A's consistently, ensuring all profiles follow a standard format for abilities.

That and the reference issue I mentioned some months ago. We should try to find a way to also make those look consistent in formatting, at least in the same page.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

That and the reference issue I mentioned some months ago. We should try to find a way to also make those look consistent in formatting, at least in the same page.

I'll add this into the OP, as this is also a huge issue.

Formatting may be hard, even annoying at times to work with thanks to the tedium of doing so manually (even with direct BBcode mode toggle), but it is also another one of the undertakings that should be addressed, if not coordinated for. I agree with that much.

 

[Vzearr]

I'll begin to help out

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Here a problem with some profiles

Akyuu, Kosuzu and average fairies have a Class 5 LS rating. But they can't have that since the Class 5 LS comes from Cirno ice throwing feat and it was accepted here that average fairies and humans don't scale to Cirno. So Akyuu, Kosuzu, and average fairies should lose their Class 5 LS.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Here a problem with some profiles

Akyuu, Kosuzu and average fairies have a Class 5 LS rating. But they can't have that since the Class 5 LS comes from Cirno ice throwing feat and it was accepted here that average fairies and humans don't scale to Cirno. So Akyuu, Kosuzu, and average fairies should lose their Class 5 LS.

Agreed.

The first two are humans that have no combat feats beyond their own inherent abilities, which, are also not used for combat whatsoever. In fact I'd argue that the change is not controversial. Regular fairies on the other hand debateably vary, but it likely doesn't come near Class 5 for your run-of-the-mill average fairy. I will say it is likely higher for Hell Fairies due to being able to live in Hell's conditions at all, since Hell is essentially unlivable and battered by those karmic winds mentioned in WBaWC.

I think "Varies" would be best for them, as there are numerous types of them that are stronger or weaker than others. The fairies that are named and known, however, should At least be relative to or Higher than Cirno (i.e, Letty, Clownpiece, Larva, etc), generally speaking.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Agreed.

The first two are humans that have no combat feats beyond their own inherent abilities, which, are also not used for combat whatsoever. In fact I'd argue that the change is not controversial. Regular fairies on the other hand debateably vary, but it likely doesn't come near Class 5 for your run-of-the-mill average fairy. I will say it is likely higher for Hell Fairies due to being able to live in Hell's conditions at all, since Hell is essentially unlivable and battered by those karmic winds mentioned in WBaWC.

I think "Varies" would be best for them, as there are numerous types of them that are stronger or weaker than others. The fairies that are named and known, however, should At least be relative to or Higher than Cirno (i.e, Letty, Clownpiece, Larva, etc), generally speaking.

Yeah, Varies LS seems fine, and I think it is also supported by the fact that some fairies are small enough to fit in the palm of one hand (Below human LS?) while others are much larger like the maid fairies.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I have a concern regarding Byakuren's "feat" of moving stars.

The only thing I am seeing here are the following:

• Marisa saying that "it looks like the entire sky is moving"
• Sumireko saying that the attack reminds her of photos of the starry skies
• The comment saying that "the attack looks like a relaxes stream of stars but they're actually moving pretty fast"

Imo this is taking a line way too much literally, as the "stars" seem to be just the danmaku rather than literally actual stars in the sky. We don't make Marisa's attacks as literal celestial bodies compressed in tiny bullets either, so this shouldn't too.

 

[Steve1775]

I have a concern regarding Byakuren's "feat" of moving stars.

The only thing I am seeing here are the following:

• Marisa saying that "it looks like the entire sky is moving"
• Sumireko saying that the attack reminds her of photos of the starry skies
• The comment saying that "the attack looks like a relaxes stream of stars but they're actually moving pretty fast"

Imo this is taking a line way too much literally, as the "stars" seem to be just the danmaku rather than literally actual stars in the sky. We don't make Marisa's attacks as literal celestial bodies compressed in tiny bullets either, so this shouldn't too.

I remembered I commented about the feat as well too thinking it was sus as well

 

[SomeJJJJ]

I have a problem with a note regarding Yorihime and Toyohime profiles.

I think the note in the Watatsuki Sisters profile is a problem, the statement comes from SoPM where ZUN says the Watatsuki sis's are "untouchable" to anyone in Gensokyo because in the Moon, it's where the "highest and noblest gods" live, i do not think this interpretation goes under raw power terms, it just means that lunar gods are built different as said in one of Reimu's endings from 20. I also don't think ZUN saying that it's a “necessary measure” for the narrative to make the Watatsuki sisters stronger than anyone else in Gensokyo means that they are mathematically so, unless statements like these are acceptable within the site rules. I have more issues with their profiles, but I think this is the most serious one. These matters were discussed at length in old threads, and yet there is no evidence to suggest that the information said there is unreliable.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

as the "stars" seem to be just the danmaku rather than literally actual stars in the sky.

ZUN has been explicitly clear that danmaku is not just a game mechanic for Touhou; it is the primary abstract medium through which a character's abilities and the phenomena they control are expressed As he notes in Perfect Cherry Blossom's omake:

ZUN	"Particularly, I chose to represent a lot of things (or phenomena) with danmaku; since that's a fairly abstract way of doing things, it may be hard to understand... (On the other hand, Touhou users probably have very strong imaginations, so maybe they understood too much ^^; )"

Therefore, the danmaku is the manifestation of the power. To claim the "stars" are "just danmaku" is to create a false dichotomy in this instance. The spell card's name declares the phenomenon, be it stars, boundaries, or life itself, and the danmaku is its literal, albeit stylized, representation within the verse's rules, as is very often the case. Consequently, a spell card named after a stellar phenomenon is unequivocally portraying that very phenomenon through its abstract medium.

I will also say that, this isn't the only feat of "moving stars" in the series. Megumu for instance has an ability that is verbatim: "Capable of manipulating the starry sky", which, honestly is more outright than the Byakuren feat. It can't be more upfront that that.

Edit: Yukari also has feats of moving the stars, and the Dragon God is a living constellation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Therefore, the danmaku is the manifestation of the power. To claim the "stars" are "just danmaku" is to create a false dichotomy in this instance. The spell card's name declares the phenomenon, be it stars, boundaries, or life itself, and the danmaku is its literal, albeit stylized, representation within the verse's rules, as is very often the case. Consequently, a spell card named after a stellar phenomenon is unequivocally portraying that very phenomenon through its abstract medium.

The problem is that how do you even interpret that? Does she compress the stars to make them in bullets? Do the stars literally come towards the target despite the space of the fight being obv far smaller?

Idk how can you explain that.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I don't think the Byakuren thing is worth splitting hairs this much over if it isn't anything stats or major abilities are dependent on. Wouldn't surprise me if there was a bit of literalism just being abstracted in presentation there -- the compression theory is interesting -- but it seems pretty figurative & isn't a big deal besides.

More importantly, I do think it'd be wiser to assemble pages establishing verse-wide mechanics, physiology, cosmology, etc before making new pages or even polishing existing ones. Foundation before all else. Unless the invitation to do the latter was meant as a sort of participation drive, in which case that'd be a good way to get more users invested in the verse for the wiki.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think the Byakuren thing is worth splitting hairs this much over if it isn't anything stats or major abilities are dependent on. Wouldn't surprise me if there was a bit of literalism just being abstracted in presentation there -- the compression theory is interesting -- but it seems pretty figurative & isn't a big deal besides.

The LS of the characters depends on it, rn they'd Multi-Stellar.

 

[Tyop89]

Not all gods in Touhou predate reality; they did technically exist as divine concepts and forces of nature since the beginning, but they only gained identity and sentience as a result of adundant human faith (stated by Kanako in SoPM part 5).

Suwako is likely over 2,400 years old at most. With most of the ancient gods around the 1,500 to 3,000 mark (Okina over 1,300). Eirin at 3000, then Junko and Hecatia being the oldest at over 3,500 to 4,000 IMO (some like Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi might even be over 5,000 years old lol).

But it's very likely there could be other, greater deities such as the Kotoamatsukami that transcend faith/reality altogether and are at least hundreds of millions (possibly billions) of years old.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Not all gods in Touhou predate reality; they did technically exist as divine concepts and forces of nature since the beginning, but they only gained identity and sentience as a result of adundant human faith (stated by Kanako in SoPM part 5).

This was brought up in the BDE Gods addition thread by me.

Personally I would bake these changes in a sort of Physiology update CRT. Beyond that, it's important to make the distinction that Gods/"Kami" =/= Divine Spirits/"Shinrei". As Divine Spirits have no connection to the Eight Million according to PMiSS. They also rely on shrines to accrue faith.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Would someone be kind enough to summarize/organize what’s been pointed out so far? I can definitely list it to the OP. Everything brought up so far seems fairly straightforward to address.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Would someone be kind enough to summarize/organize what’s been pointed out so far? I can definitely list it to the OP. Everything brought up so far seems fairly straightforward to address.

As in, everything brought up in this thread in general? I'll recap the questions moreso than the conclusions. Each of these links to the posts first bringing up the matter.

• First, Ariya has a page under her mythological name Iwanagahime that may have to be revamped due to the title.
• Second, justifications for Reimu's duplication; ends at post #14.
• Third, remove Class 5 LS from fairly frail human characters such as Akyuu & Kosuzu who don't scale to Cirno. Other fairies might scale, though.
• Fourth, Byakuren might not have literally been moving stars; revamp LS unless she scales to those who have more solid similar feats.
• Fifth, determine the age of gods, both before and after receiving Names/being incarnated into more limited forms.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

The OP has been updated. Thanks!

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

For those it may concern;

Uncontroversial Yukari Yakumo Nerf?! Precog Removal

There’s a problem with Yukari’s profile that I think needs addressing, particularly in light of her recent match-up debates. It's her listed Precognition: Precognition (Was capable of predicting the events of Subterranean Animism and telling Patchouli to watch the underground for her) This...

vsbattles.com

 

[Diabul]

Another big problem in the pages are AP justifications. The majority of the AP justifications should be rewritten. They either have little and mostly useless information or don't have anything other than "should be comparable to this character (Trust me bro)" which may or may not lead to a circular scaling.

This makes it really hard and confusing for anyone, including those outside of the site, to find how a character actually scales to what the site claims they do.

Let's take the main character, Reimu, as an example. Reimu doesn't have any feats given in the justification, but five people she scales to.

Out of people listed there that Reimu scales to, if you

• Check Shinki, it just provides the Makai feat, which isn't Low-Multi. Then, scaling circles back to Reimu.
• Check Mokou, her profile doesn't have a Low-Multi feat but two characters she supposedly scales to. Out of the two, Byakuren and Kaguya, if you choose Kaguya, you have no feats but again two options, Miko or Doremy. If you pick Doremy, you find one of the Low-Multi feats. If you pick Miko, again there are no Low-Multi feats but Suiki, someone Miko supposedly scales to. If you check Suiki, he scales back to Miko and scales to Suika. If you check Suika, she has one of the Low-Multi feats. Now returning three steps back, if you choose Byakuren instead of Kaguya, you again have two options, Miko and Flandre. We know the Miko route, so continuing from Flandre, Flandre does scale to Doremy, but it's something I recently added. If it didn't exist, you'd again have five people Flandre scales to, Byakuren, Reimu, Shou, Remilia, and Patchouli, with two of which bringing you back to the start. From there, if you choose Shou...

I think you get the point. All characters should just have the main reference points of the main 2-C feats (Doremy, Suika, Tenshi) listed in their justifications, with preferably them being at top. You should be able to learn how a character scales to 2-C without needing to go through five different profiles for each of the actual feats.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Flandre scales to, Byakuren, Reimu, Shou, Remilia, and Patchouli, with two of which bringing you back to the start. From there, if you choose Shou...

Why the CDS Scaling in first place? it is an uncontrollable variable because, based on how the manga is and its current state, the characters are subject to constantly changing their scaling since we continually see them fighting. Honestly, it's a very irregular thing.

One day you see Flandre blocking Reimu's attacks, but the next day we see her being sent into the stratosphere by Mizuchi, who is terrified to Reimu's crimson slasher state.