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Touhou and Bomberman
- Thread starter Antvasima
- Start date
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I'd rather not get in a discussion about Touhou characters but I think I can provide some input for White Bomberman. So WB was previously Planet level and this was accepted as legit. Then he apparently had a Multi-Galaxy Feat (defeating Sirius and Regulus) and after that had a universal feat for defeating Angel of Light and Shadow.
First things first are Sirius and Regulus really Multi-Galaxy Level we need proof for this.
Second (This isn't really necessary and are just my two cents): In other well know franchises, such as the ones from the HST, a character jumping from Country to Continent in a case similar to this is often looked at with skepticism and under-goes strict checking. So the same treatment should apply here as this is a much more severe case. A character jumping from Planet Level (Tier 5-A) to Universe Level (Tier 3-A).
Third: Considering the fact that WB drastically jumped in terms of power it's more believable that this is either game mechanics, major PIS or should be considered as outliners. Also did WB get any sort of powerups before fighting Sirius and Regulus and same with Angel of Light and Shadow. If he did then his Tier jump is more believable but only slightly as a jump in power from Planet Level to Multi-Galaxy should require a character to be trillions upon trillions of times more powerful. Same with his Universal feat. But if he didn't get some major powerups before his fights with the supposed Galaxy and Universal beings then I find it more believable that his feats are either game mechanics, major PIS or should be considered as outliners.
This may not be good input but I still provided by two cents.
First things first are Sirius and Regulus really Multi-Galaxy Level we need proof for this.
Second (This isn't really necessary and are just my two cents): In other well know franchises, such as the ones from the HST, a character jumping from Country to Continent in a case similar to this is often looked at with skepticism and under-goes strict checking. So the same treatment should apply here as this is a much more severe case. A character jumping from Planet Level (Tier 5-A) to Universe Level (Tier 3-A).
Third: Considering the fact that WB drastically jumped in terms of power it's more believable that this is either game mechanics, major PIS or should be considered as outliners. Also did WB get any sort of powerups before fighting Sirius and Regulus and same with Angel of Light and Shadow. If he did then his Tier jump is more believable but only slightly as a jump in power from Planet Level to Multi-Galaxy should require a character to be trillions upon trillions of times more powerful. Same with his Universal feat. But if he didn't get some major powerups before his fights with the supposed Galaxy and Universal beings then I find it more believable that his feats are either game mechanics, major PIS or should be considered as outliners.
This may not be good input but I still provided by two cents.
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About Touhou:
The issue with the continuities is long discussed. To my knowledge the general agreement in the "vs community" is that they are treated as two completly seperate fictions. The statement, that shows that makai is a universe is from another continuity than the God and creator from Makai Shinki. As such Shinki can not be clearly said to be universe level. From what we know from the PC-98 Canon Makai is only proven to contain a small solar system, I believe.
Also, while it is right that in the PC-98 continuity the spellcard rules don´t exist I would not powerscale between characters based on in-game things. Shinki certainly didn´t use reality warping in the battle against reimu and reimu is never stated to be more powerful than her. (actually calling upon the help of gods is one of reimus abilities).
So for short I wouldn´t change anything about reimus stats.
The issue with the continuities is long discussed. To my knowledge the general agreement in the "vs community" is that they are treated as two completly seperate fictions. The statement, that shows that makai is a universe is from another continuity than the God and creator from Makai Shinki. As such Shinki can not be clearly said to be universe level. From what we know from the PC-98 Canon Makai is only proven to contain a small solar system, I believe.
Also, while it is right that in the PC-98 continuity the spellcard rules don´t exist I would not powerscale between characters based on in-game things. Shinki certainly didn´t use reality warping in the battle against reimu and reimu is never stated to be more powerful than her. (actually calling upon the help of gods is one of reimus abilities).
So for short I wouldn´t change anything about reimus stats.
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White Bomber should be Planet level+ for consistency sake. I really don't understand how destroying the Omnicube or beating characters capable of weilding/destroying it makes you multi galaxy level when it's probably just a powerful cube with spatial patterns on it. And for the universal feat, just like Tueful said, franchises with characters having massive power gaps are strictly examined for legitimacy.
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Reimu beating Shinki isn't only game play based. The fact that Reimu and the other beat up Shinki was an important part of the plot and Shinki kinda became their bitch afterwards. To a varying degree.
Even if Reimu can uses the power of the gods, not only she is very bad at it, other character without it like Marisa or Yuuka still managed to beat her. And I don't think that Shinki would have held back herself, since Mima told to her that she was on the same level as her (and she belived it) yet Shinki still lost.
PC-98 is not canon, but both setting are still the same according to the creator. Nothing much has changed, the character who didn't showed up still exist they just don't get to be shown on scree.
Even if it doesn't get accepted, I think it should at least be mentioned somewhere.
Even if Reimu can uses the power of the gods, not only she is very bad at it, other character without it like Marisa or Yuuka still managed to beat her. And I don't think that Shinki would have held back herself, since Mima told to her that she was on the same level as her (and she belived it) yet Shinki still lost.
PC-98 is not canon, but both setting are still the same according to the creator. Nothing much has changed, the character who didn't showed up still exist they just don't get to be shown on scree.
Even if it doesn't get accepted, I think it should at least be mentioned somewhere.
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The mass-energy of the observable universe (and by extension, Angel Of Light And Shadow's power) is 40 yottafoe and Bomberman > Angel Of Light And Shadow. Bomberman also beat Emperor Terrorin who was a master of controlling the space-time continuum, as well as Regulus who vapourized multiple galaxies with his mere punches. Not to mention that as a robot, Bomberman is immune to hax such as soulfuckery and mindscrew, in addition to the whole resisting universal space/time manipulation/reality warping thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3gLY3JSV9k
Angel Of Light And Shadow could destroy the universe and create it, it makes no sense for AOLAS to be a glass cannon if he can survive his universal destruction and the fact of the matter is Bomberman hurt him with bombs, which even surprised the AOLAS itself. Bomberman's certainly above planet level, his planet level feats are all casual
Got hit with a planetary explosion and did not even acknowledge it even, lol
http://youtu.be/5YrRD85P2zU?t=26
Translations for Terrorin:
http://bomberman.bigs.fr/liens/SuperBomberman5InfoSite/manual-txt.html
"The enemy that has appeared before Bomberman this time is the self-styled Emperor of an alternate dimension, "Terrorin". Suddenly appearing from an other-dimensional space, he created Terrorin World, took the name of Emperor, and steeped himself in mystery. He has sprung the 8 "Fiendish Bombermen" from "Bomber Penitentiary" -- which was even said to be "the most strongly guarded in the universe" -- has made them his subordinates, and has begun his invasion. So as to protect the peace of Bomber World, Bomberman challenges the alternate-dimensional world that "Terrorin" has created!"
Via mass-energy, we can determine that Terrorin's output is in at least the hundreds of tenatons (or star level) via creating planets
Intro: http://youtu.be/Ii8UnfYf2dM
Hudson's synopsis:
"An evil Bomber named Emperor Terrorin who has the power of Time itself has freed various criminal Bombers from their prison cells in orbit around Planet Bomber. Setting them up in a warped time and space, Shirobon, Kurobon, and their Louie companions must travel through stages and defeat them before going up against Emperor Terrorin himself."
Sirius also explained that the Omni Cube grants control over the universe which I find reliable seeing as how it should be > Terrorin
The multi-galaxy Regulus/Sirius stuff comes from the Omni Cube as well. It is a powerful device that absorbs things in its proximity and a tiny fraction of its power was used in the Bomberman 64 intro to do this: http://youtu.be/4LTH11s3CTI
As you can see it also has multiple galaxies absorbed inside of it due to its power. Notice how they are visible yet absorbed worlds are nowhere to be seen no matter how much you zoom in. If that does not scream real galaxies I do not know what does
Guidebook information:
"The cube was powerful enough to trap entire galaxies into his interior, making the user almost invincible. The cube is made of unknown material and can not be destroyed easily."
Yet not only did Sirius absorb its power and still lose to Bomberman, but Regulus also punched the cube so hard it caused everything inside to explode along with the cube itself.
http://youtu.be/LyakyPe9PiI
Bomberman owned Regulus twice as well.
During the second fight Regulus' gravity manipulaiton was great enough to create what were described as black holes, the sheer size of them puts that feat at solar system level easily and Bomberman can also reach their escape velocity.
http://youtu.be/10o9T-IRHqo?t=146
Not to mention that Bombeman has gravity bombs of his own that serve as veritable black holes.
This thread backs up all my claims and has pages upon pages upon pages of information for anything Bomberman related you might need. I am undoing the changes to the page: http://www.bombermanboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=1271
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3gLY3JSV9k
Angel Of Light And Shadow could destroy the universe and create it, it makes no sense for AOLAS to be a glass cannon if he can survive his universal destruction and the fact of the matter is Bomberman hurt him with bombs, which even surprised the AOLAS itself. Bomberman's certainly above planet level, his planet level feats are all casual
Got hit with a planetary explosion and did not even acknowledge it even, lol
http://youtu.be/5YrRD85P2zU?t=26
Translations for Terrorin:
http://bomberman.bigs.fr/liens/SuperBomberman5InfoSite/manual-txt.html
"The enemy that has appeared before Bomberman this time is the self-styled Emperor of an alternate dimension, "Terrorin". Suddenly appearing from an other-dimensional space, he created Terrorin World, took the name of Emperor, and steeped himself in mystery. He has sprung the 8 "Fiendish Bombermen" from "Bomber Penitentiary" -- which was even said to be "the most strongly guarded in the universe" -- has made them his subordinates, and has begun his invasion. So as to protect the peace of Bomber World, Bomberman challenges the alternate-dimensional world that "Terrorin" has created!"
Via mass-energy, we can determine that Terrorin's output is in at least the hundreds of tenatons (or star level) via creating planets
Intro: http://youtu.be/Ii8UnfYf2dM
Hudson's synopsis:
"An evil Bomber named Emperor Terrorin who has the power of Time itself has freed various criminal Bombers from their prison cells in orbit around Planet Bomber. Setting them up in a warped time and space, Shirobon, Kurobon, and their Louie companions must travel through stages and defeat them before going up against Emperor Terrorin himself."
Sirius also explained that the Omni Cube grants control over the universe which I find reliable seeing as how it should be > Terrorin
The multi-galaxy Regulus/Sirius stuff comes from the Omni Cube as well. It is a powerful device that absorbs things in its proximity and a tiny fraction of its power was used in the Bomberman 64 intro to do this: http://youtu.be/4LTH11s3CTI
As you can see it also has multiple galaxies absorbed inside of it due to its power. Notice how they are visible yet absorbed worlds are nowhere to be seen no matter how much you zoom in. If that does not scream real galaxies I do not know what does
Guidebook information:
"The cube was powerful enough to trap entire galaxies into his interior, making the user almost invincible. The cube is made of unknown material and can not be destroyed easily."
Yet not only did Sirius absorb its power and still lose to Bomberman, but Regulus also punched the cube so hard it caused everything inside to explode along with the cube itself.
http://youtu.be/LyakyPe9PiI
Bomberman owned Regulus twice as well.
During the second fight Regulus' gravity manipulaiton was great enough to create what were described as black holes, the sheer size of them puts that feat at solar system level easily and Bomberman can also reach their escape velocity.
http://youtu.be/10o9T-IRHqo?t=146
Not to mention that Bombeman has gravity bombs of his own that serve as veritable black holes.
This thread backs up all my claims and has pages upon pages upon pages of information for anything Bomberman related you might need. I am undoing the changes to the page: http://www.bombermanboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=1271
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But The statement "To create a universe anew, we destroy this one" doesn't really imply that Angel of Light and Shadow could one-shot the universe. This could be similar to the Chakravartin case which happened not too long ago.
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So a few simple and vague statements with no universal feats what so ever are enough to rate a character as Universal. Wow just wow.
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- Thread starter
- #11
Okay. You do have a point, but I am tired from constantly having to deal with these things. I don't even havecthe slightest bit of interest in most of these topics, yet have to constantly play arbitrator for unreasonable and singleminded people day in and day out.
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I understand, you are the most active admin on the site.
Which reminds me this site has 6 admins and 2 mods and 2 Bureaucrats but among the admins and bureaucrats only you and Lord Kavpeny seem to be active. I can understand why my brother isn't around but what of the others.
But anyways it sure seems tough on you to maintain this whole site.
Which reminds me this site has 6 admins and 2 mods and 2 Bureaucrats but among the admins and bureaucrats only you and Lord Kavpeny seem to be active. I can understand why my brother isn't around but what of the others.
But anyways it sure seems tough on you to maintain this whole site.
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Well for what it's worth I think that you're doing an awesome job...
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I know. Was just stating my thoughts.
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And I'm sure everyone appreciates the amount of effort you put into this site. But anyways got to go for now as I have a few things that need to be done..
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Eh well while I could provide some input for Touhou Characters I'd rather not.... sorry.... I have somewhat of a bad history with them.
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I should really stay out of this, since I am not very firm at keeping arguments, but my opinion about Touhou is that, while it may have universal characters (Shinki, as a example), that verse isn't very easy to classify.
I mean, look at Yukari Yakumo. She haves very low DC/durability in comparision with certain characters, but she has some really, really serious reality-warping hax. So much that she can beat characters who are thousands of times stronger than her with ease by "breaking the boundaries".
So, even if Touhou characters aren't universal, they are still full of reality-warping hax, enough to cause some serious problems across their own verse.
Just my opinion, tho.
I mean, look at Yukari Yakumo. She haves very low DC/durability in comparision with certain characters, but she has some really, really serious reality-warping hax. So much that she can beat characters who are thousands of times stronger than her with ease by "breaking the boundaries".
So, even if Touhou characters aren't universal, they are still full of reality-warping hax, enough to cause some serious problems across their own verse.
Just my opinion, tho.
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Oh boy....
The problems with the 2hu's powers is that ZUN let everything to imagination. He pretty much just tells us Ability to manipulate X and let us roll with it. He sometimes give us example of what they can do like Yukari or Flandre but the limits? Screw them, you are the one giving them, good luck
I mean the difference between the two extreme of what Yukari can do for example extend from simply making portals (low-balling) to busting the metaverse (wank).
And I'm still holding to my opinion that Reimu beating Shinki should still be mentionned somewhere.
The problems with the 2hu's powers is that ZUN let everything to imagination. He pretty much just tells us Ability to manipulate X and let us roll with it. He sometimes give us example of what they can do like Yukari or Flandre but the limits? Screw them, you are the one giving them, good luck
I mean the difference between the two extreme of what Yukari can do for example extend from simply making portals (low-balling) to busting the metaverse (wank).
And I'm still holding to my opinion that Reimu beating Shinki should still be mentionned somewhere.
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Makai was never stated or shown to be a full universe, if you have evidence otherwise post it
The Player Character defeating Shinki only burned a city and characters having differing DC and durability stats is not uncommmon, her durability being where it was was being generous considering weaker characters have done better
The Player Character defeating Shinki only burned a city and characters having differing DC and durability stats is not uncommmon, her durability being where it was was being generous considering weaker characters have done better
