Tiering for Pokemon starters and Ditto (ditto)

[Jasonsith]

As we notice, Ditto is famous for transforming into another Pokemon being in the Pokemo universe, keeping its original HP while mapping the other statistics, outlook, skills and abilities as long as the Ditto itself can.

While its ceiling tier (for versus debate purposes) it can mimic is set to be no stronger than Mew at Tier 5-B (being Ditto itself as a failure in creating New), I want to discuss if we should set the floor tier too.

Since Wishiwashi is Tier 10-C and Magikarp is Tier 9-B (both of which are weak Pokemons), where should Ditto scale to at base tier?

Edit: Speaking of which, should average starter Pokemon be 8-B instead because of this?

 

[GyroNutz]

Stat wise, it's not nearly as weak as the likes of Magikarp, and there's nothing really saying, lore wise, that it's this weak either.

I'd say Low 7-B, scaling to the likes of Smeargle and other weak Pokemon that don't evolve. 8-A as a minimum tho, there's no reason why it'd be weaker than a first stage starter Pokemon imo

 

[Jasonsith]

First, the characteristics of Ditto suggests (from the Pokedex) it "transforms into the opponent, copying the opponent's stats, powers, attacks and appearance". However, "if it tries to transform itself into something by relying on its memory, this Pokémon manages to get details wrong". It cannot practically say transform into Drowzee and zen headbutt Machop if there is no Drowzee nearby.

Nevertheless if it faces a gang of Rattatas and Raticates it may (1) turn into a stone and hide, (2) choose the fastest species and run away, or (3) turn into the strongest species and fight. It can defend itself effectively.

Scaling into low 7-B means it is physically stronger than a wild strongest Caterpie or Magikarp even if it transforms into that Caterpie or Magikarp (not making sense in my mind).

Since 9-B Pokemons are weak and common enough for Ditto to come across and 9-B only serve as its minimum level, it does not limit its upper potential.

I would like to revise the tier of Ditto as

Unknow. At least 9-B (scaling to wild Pokemon it can encounter), up to 5-B (being imperfect copies of Mew). Varies with transformations.

 

[GyroNutz]

Without game mechanics, a Ditto wouldn't transform into a Magikarp if it wanted Magikarp dead. It's not like it's suited for combat as a Ditto though

Again, both logically and statistically, Ditto is no weaker than a first stage starter Pokemon. 8-A at a minimum imo

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Pretty sure that Ditto has been shown to be able to restrict some pokemon trainers in its base form, and the trainers were being upgraded to at least 8-A.

Regardless, I doubt Ditro would be weaker than the starter pokemon.

 

[Christian_Higdon]

Ditto vs Ditto ovo.

 

[Jasonsith]

Pretty sure that Ditto has been shown to be able to restrict some pokemon trainers in its base form, and the trainers were being upgraded to at least 8-A.

Regardless, I doubt Ditro would be weaker than the starter pokemon.

All trainers are now 8-A? Do elite trainers, gym leaders, Elite Fours and Champions, elite crime lords and the alike get upgraded too as they are superior to normal trainers?

By jove should we reexamine the basis for 8-A starters instead?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean, varies on the trainer. There are the martial artists who can keep up with 6-C pokemon consistently for exemple.

 

[Jasonsith]

Damn... After studying some characteristics and statistics of a tornado, I find that...

High end and average starters are 8-B.

Baby and special weak Pokemons are still 10-C to 9-B.

 

[Jasonsith]

Bump

 

[Jasonsith]

So are tiers for average starters, weaklings and Ditto finalised at which standard? Or status quo (as of now)?

 

[GyroNutz]

Your calc hasn't been accepted, plus starters would still scale to Pikachu who has two 8-A feats and Earth Power which I think is also 8-A.

Baby Pokemon are 8-C via the Cleffa calc

Again Ditto should be 8-A.

 

[Jasonsith]

By your logic should we upgrade (at least the ceiling tier of) Magikarp as well?

Also if Pichu scales to 8-C feats whatever then the likes of Metapod and Magikarp (who doesn't have much worse base stats) should scale to 8-C as well.

Like...

Ditto: At least 8-C (scaling to wild Pokemon it can encounter), up to 5-B (being imperfect copies of Mew). Varies with transformations.

Metapod: 9-B to to 8-C

Magikarp: 10-C to 8-C

Wishiwashi (solo form) may still stay at 10-C.

 

[GyroNutz]

Baby Pokemon always scaled above Magikarp, not the other way around. Only reason that Magikarp has a tier other than 10-C is because certain Magikarps can perform a 9-B feat.

Metapod scales to Caterpie. I suppose you could argue that Caterpie should be comparable to baby Pokemon

 

[Jasonsith]

Sorry for suddenly kicking off again after it has been back and forth for weeks.

In order to serve needs for different states of Ditto people may observe, I decide to draw a middle line by adding notes such that most current fights will not be altered, but the needs for those who believe certain Dittos should perform specifically. Nothing much is changed for the stats, powers and abilities of Ditto, just some iterations for certain people to build specific cases for Ditto to fight.

Draft
1) While inside the game it can transform into any Pokémon and copy exactly the stats, powers, attacks and appearance except the HP of the opponent, it is argued that Ditto rarely transform into an opponent weaker than itself in combat. It is suggested that thread starters state the starting level/tier of Ditto. For reference, the current tier of Pikachu (one of the most notable starter Pokémon) is 8-A. If the thread starter wishes to set the floor tier of Ditto, he should state that in the starting thread and Pikachu will be the floor tier. However, the ceiling tier of Ditto should limit to the tier of Mew is 5-B, which is stated to be the original species of Ditto.
2) While it is stated in the Pokédex that a Pokémon can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it is also stated that "if it tries to transform itself into something by relying on its memory, this Pokémon manages to get details wrong". Unless the starter stated in the versus thread that it can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it should only be able to transform to any opponent or objects it can see in the battlefield.

Such notes should not affect any of the previous versus threads with Ditto. However, the thread starter may now pick the Ditto that is "at least 8-A, up to 5-B" or not, that can "transform into any at-least-8A-up-to-5B Pokémon according to its memories" or not. If nothing is picked, the profile of Ditto remains unchanged.