The X-Verse (Official Sonic.exe) CRT

[OculoOmnibus]

Within this CRT, the official Sonic.exe metaseries (Now the "X-Verse") has a proper canon chart that elaborates on where different versions of the character are placed.

Verse Changes​

Confirmed in Joe's tweet, we can now comfortably change certain things about how the verse is structured:

• Sonic.exe (Verse) becomes renamed to X-Verse. As far as I can tell, there isn't another verse by this name so we don't need to clarify that it is Sonic.exe related.
• Soulless Sonic, Sonic II Gaiden, Archive Y2K0724 (Xenophanes Canon), Broken_Face (2017 canon) and Sonic Prototype 2017 all become merged into this page, as they are all official material.
• Because Soulless Sonic is now the de-facto official continuation of the SONIC 2011/Sonic.exe continuity, information relating to both can be used for each other now, including a merge of the Lord X profile and Sonic.exe profile.
• Sonic II Gaiden and Sonic Prototype 2017 can upscale/downscale from the Sonic.exe branch, as they are alternate continuations.
• There is now concrete proof that JC-the-Hyena's works are no longer canon to the new series.

Profile Changes and Additions​

All of them​

• Xenophanes is officially the weakest of all the official .EXE's physically, meaning X and "Sonic" all upscale from any physical feat he performs. A calculation was made a while ago that could be used as a baseline for this.
• Profiles for Bandado, "Sonic", the Seven Guardians, the Annexes and EXE will be withheld because there is nothing to scale them off of as they do not have any official content.

Sonic.exe / Lord X / Lord Mortis​

• The page "Sonic.exe (Canon)" is renamed to "Sonic.exe (X)" as to follow the more generalized naming conventions of VSB pages (plus X is his common nickname so I feel it should apply). Rather than this, it might just be better to either keep the name or rename it to "Sonic.exe (Lord X)" to accompany the fact that both are in the same continuity.
• A lot of Lord X's abilities can be applied to 2011 X/Lord Mortis, as he is simply just a younger version of the character. A sandbox is provided as to what they would look like (I based it on Shape's one in the last thread so credit to him where all is due), and I provided some brackets in the tiering based on what they could be agreed to be changed to.
• A page on VOID Physiology is created, as this is important for characters such as X and Lord Mortis, as well as when the Seven Guardians/EXE pages are created in the future.
  • In addition to this, I suggest removing Higher-Dimensional Existence. HDE is for beings that actually reside or exist on a higher dimension, whereas X was just born in the void but lives in an actual third-dimensional realm as far as I can tell. I'll also add Nonexistent Physiology to the VOID page as this is closer to what Sonic.exe and VOID matter are described as in-universe.

Alan, Dave and Paul​

• Both pages for Alan become merged into Alan (Sonic.exe). Alan also gets a new key for his Soulless Sonic appearance. They don't see to have much changes in their abilities, so unless Alan gains another power of Tails, all he really needs is just one key.

VOID Physiology page​

These are at least the few basics that should be added:

• Nonexistent Physiology (VOID matter originates from the void, which is described as a "space between universes" outside of reality)
• Inorganic Physiology and Incorporeality (Type 2. Beings made of VOID matter are pure energy/antimatter)
  • VOID Energy Manipulation (Are capable of manipulating this type of energy)
• Non-Physical Interaction and Soul Manipulation (VOID beings can interact with souls)
• Resistance to Soul Manipulation (Beings made of VOID matter (such as X himself and the Guardians) do not have a "soul" in an ordinary sense)

Edit: Apparently Nonexistent Physiology is for beings that just aren't supposed to exist at all.

Votes​

Several things were debated in the previous CRT thread:

Merged Keys for Sonic.exe and Lord X​

When merging the profiles, @TheShape03 proposed that both of the keys should be merged together as there is nothing indicating that Lord X is actually any stronger than 2011 other than this. I don't really know anymore if both should have separate keys or not for stats, but I do think they should have separate keys for their abilities.

Agree (1): @TheShape03

Neutral (2): @Walker21232123 @OculoOmnibus (Needs more information on 2011 X's forms)

Disagree (0):

Downgrade from Low 2-C​

In the current profile for Lord X (the one that will be carried over and merged), he is noted to have created a universe, but the problem with the statement used is that when applying further context to what the tweet was replying to, we realize that Joe is specifically talking about the continuity and not X's actual dimension. Most times Joe refers to the term "universe" in his tweets is just talking about the continuity/verse of a series, and X's dimension is just referred to as a "dimension", "sub-universe", "domain", and "world". There is no record of Joe at all describing X's dimension as a "universe", "parallel dimension", "parallel world" or anything that would meet the requirements of it being classified as a universe and just seems more like a pocket reality.

In the other CRT, Shape proposed an argument that the Cult of X Wiki page is proof that X's dimension is a universe (the section below is what he was likely referring to)

"3. Outlast it. When X comes into our world, he can only remain for a short period of time. If you can last long enough without being caught by it, X will be sucked back into its world."

When talking about how he crosses over to Earth, both "its world" and "our world" are used in the context, which could be referring to universes due to the fact that it specifically talks about X's interdimensional travel. I myself don't really like this argument because not only could it just be referring to Earth, but I feel there is both a lack of evidence (Joe is often inconsistent with a lot of lore and can sometimes retcon things) and that there is a section on the Universal requirements page that I believe just prevents it altogether, but I will let people decide with a vote and we'll go with that.

Agree (2): @OculoOmnibus, @Walker21232123

Neutral (0):

Disagree (1): @TheShape03

Lord X - Separate Tiering of Physical Stats and Abilities​

I think this is a no-brainer but based on this statement about Lord X and his ability section on the Cult of X wiki, his "limitless" stuff should only apply to his powers. This is because the statements specify that they are in relation to his abilities and not his physical AP. The only real reason I see this being applied him overall is because of the next line right after Joe's tweet, but I don't see how this doesn't apply to anything other than his powers. This would downgrade Sonic.exe/Lord X to Town level physically. Depending on the other changes, the tiering for the Reality Warping either stays as Low 2-C or changes to High 3-A.

I think the explanation I gave was too vague and weak, so I'll rewrite it with better evidence to support it.

1. JoeDoughBoi states in a tweet that Lord X has "limitless abilities" and that he holds back from using most of them because it makes his games unfair. It also ends off with the statement that there is no power level for him because it is "not relevant or something that can be measured/compared". However, in the reply section, Joe clarifies on more information with that he can lose and that there are still limitations he has that prevent him from simply taking over the world.
2. Every time Joe mentions X having no comparable power level in tweets, he is often referring to how people rank him as "the strongest" X and that the series does not have a strongest like in traditional power scaling. With this in mind, I do not think the intention of the first statement was that he has immeasurable stats considering that he also has multiple different forms, with some being stated as stronger. His main vessel form can also be destroyed by an M1 Abrams, implying that it has physical limitations.
3. DylanZeMuffin (2011 X's VA and a frequent collaborator of JoeDoughBoi) claims that Joe's explanation was indeed referring to the amount of abilities he has. Not really a direct WoG statement but it is something notable to throw in.
4. The only scaling we can go off of for X is that he is more powerful than the Guardians, and that he has multiple more powerful forms at his disposal.

TL;DR: X has a virtually infinite number of abilities as it matches up with how he is a reality warping void entity, but it does not translate to him having infinite physical stats because it specifies that it is only in relation to abilities.

Agree (1): @OculoOmnibus (Varies + Up to High 3-A)

Neutral (0):

Disagree (1): @TheShape03

Miscellaneous Changes​

All other changes relating to the CRT.

Agree (3): @OculoOmnibus (All changes), @TheShape03 (Verse changes + General profile changes), @Walker21232123 (Verse changes + General profile changes)

Neutral (0):

Disagree (2): @TheShape03 (X's page name), @Walker21232123 (X's page name)

This took a while to put together lol a lot of things were a mess to keep organized

 

[TheShape03]

Verse Changes​

Confirmed in Joe's tweet, we can now comfortably change certain things about how the verse is structured:

• Sonic.exe (Verse) becomes renamed to X-Verse. As far as I can tell, there isn't another verse by this name so we don't need to clarify that it is Sonic.exe related.
• Soulless Sonic, Sonic II Gaiden, Archive Y2K0724 (Xenophanes Canon), Broken_Face (2017 canon) and Sonic Prototype 2017 all become merged into this page, as they are all official material.
• Because Soulless Sonic is now the de-facto official continuation of the SONIC 2011/Sonic.exe continuity, information relating to both can be used for each other now, including a merge of the Lord X profile and Sonic.exe profile.
• Sonic II Gaiden and Sonic Prototype 2017 can upscale/downscale from the Sonic.exe branch, as they are alternate continuations.
• There is now concrete proof that JC-the-Hyena's works are no longer canon to the new series.

Profile Changes and Additions​

All of them​

• Xenophanes is officially the weakest of all the official .EXE's physically, meaning X and "Sonic" all upscale from any physical feat he performs. A calculation was made a while ago that could be used as a baseline for this.
• Profiles for Bandado, "Sonic", the Seven Guardians, the Annexes and EXE will be withheld because there is nothing to scale them off of as they do not have any official content.

Obviously agreed. Plus, "The X-Verse" sounds more epic.

The page "Sonic.exe (Canon)" is renamed to "Sonic.exe (X)" as to follow the more generalized naming conventions of VSB pages (plus X is his common nickname so I feel it should apply).

I prefer it to continue to be called "Sonic.exe (Canon)" or "Sonic.exe (The X-Verse)", parentheses are not used to add secondary names. They should be added to clarify the verse the character belongs to when there are more characters with the same name.
Editing Rules:

The titles of character pages should be the respective character's name and nothing else, but in cases when there is one or more characters with identical names, a parenthesis that clarifies the entry in the series that a specific character has debuted in, rather than the title of the verse itself, should only be applied in cases when:

• It is required to separate a Canon from another for clarification purposes, such as Son Goku (Dragon Ball GT) and Son Goku (DBS Anime).
• The same character needs to be featured in multiple profiles, representing different periods from the same timeline, for organisation purposes. For example, Son Goku (Dragon Ball) and Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z). If it can't be formally named after a respective entry in a series, it should be clarified by something else instead, usually a crucial event, such as Monkey D. Luffy (Post-Timeskip) and Monkey D. Luffy (Pre-Timeskip), or Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie Pre-Genesis Wave) and Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie Post-Super Genesis Wave).

A lot of Lord X's abilities can be applied to 2011 X/Lord Mortis, as he is simply just a younger version of the character. A sandbox is provided as to what they would look like (I based it on Shape's one in the last thread so credit to him where all is due), and I provided some brackets in the tiering based on what they could be agreed to be changed to.

I don't agree with separating the powers of both, it's true that Lord X has more experience with his powers, but that's all.

A page on VOID Physiology is created, as this is important for characters such as X and Lord Mortis, as well as when the Seven Guardians/EXE pages are created in the future.

Shouldn't we make the VOID Physiology page before uploading Sonic.exe's profile?

In addition to this, I suggest removing Higher-Dimensional Existence. HDE is for beings that actually reside or exist on a higher dimension, whereas X was just born in the void but lives in an actual third-dimensional realm as far as I can tell. I'll also add Nonexistent Physiology to the VOID page as this is closer to what Sonic.exe and VOID matter are described as in-universe.

The spaces between dimensions are accepted as four-dimensional spaces here.

• Both pages for Alan become merged into Alan (Sonic.exe). Alan also gets a new key for his Soulless Sonic appearance.

Considering he's the same character, he doesn't need a new key. The passage of time doesn't justify an increase in power, as I explained in the previous CRT.

Since they are the same character, with a time difference in which he was accustomed to never exerting himself nor was his power shown to change, we have no reason to split him into keys. The passage of time does not equal a power increase without more.

If we have a character who never exerts himself nor are there statements proving that he has become more powerful, assuming that he has become stronger requires a lot more assumptions than simply saying that he remains the same in power. And Occam's razor supports my point.

VOID Physiology page

Nonexistent Physiology is a resounding no, X is formed from an existing material and existing in a vacuum just like that does not qualify for it.

Being made of energy will no longer be considered incorporeality, but Intangibility. For the obvious case that energy is not something metaphysical or spiritual.

How are we sure that soul manipulation and NPI is not an ability of Lord X's own rather than an ability that all VOID beings have?

Merged Keys for Sonic.exe and Lord X​

When merging the profiles, @TheShape03 proposed that both of the keys should be merged together as there is nothing indicating that Lord X is actually any stronger than 2011 other than this. I don't really know anymore if both should have separate keys or not for stats, but I do think they should have separate keys for their abilities.

That tweet from Joe just proves that Lord X is more experienced than his 2011 self. I'm just going to copy-paste what I said in the previous thread.

Since they are the same character, with a time difference in which he was accustomed to never exerting himself nor was his power shown to change, we have no reason to split him into keys. The passage of time does not equal a power increase without more.

If we have a character who never exerts himself nor are there statements proving that he has become more powerful, assuming that he has become stronger requires a lot more assumptions than simply saying that he remains the same in power. And Occam's razor supports my point.

When talking about how he crosses over to Earth, both "its world" and "our world" are used in the context, which could be referring to universes due to the fact that it specifically talks about X's interdimensional travel. I myself don't really like this argument because not only could it just be referring to Earth, but I feel there is both a lack of evidence (Joe is often inconsistent with a lot of lore and can sometimes retcon things) and that there is a section on the Universal requirements page that I believe just prevents it altogether, but I will let people decide with a vote and we'll go with that.

This is being misunderstood, the example on the page is a hypothetical scenario where someone says that something "reflects the world" of a character, where just such a vague statement, even if we know it doesn't refer to a planet, is not enough to categorize a structure as Low 2-C. The final sentence only mentions that even though "world" can mean universe, that doesn't mean that something called a world that is larger than a planet will be Low 2-C in size.

What happens in this case is totally different, Joe calls the human universe "our world", and in the same paragraph he calls Lord X's dimension "his world", directly comparing it to the human world.

Something else I just remembered, is that the same page refers to the universes within The Void as "dimensions", and X's world is also described as a dimension.

Lord X - [Low 2-C or High 3-A] Reality Warping​

I think this is a no-brainer but based on this statement about Lord X and his ability section on the Cult of X wiki, his "limitless" stuff should only apply to his powers (which just stem from his Reality Warping). This is because the statements specify that they are in relation to his abilities and not his physical AP. The only real reason I see this being applied him overall is because of the next line right after Joe's tweet, but I don't see how this doesn't apply to anything other than his powers. This would downgrade Sonic.exe/Lord X to Town level physically.

Depending on the other changes, the tiering for the Reality Warping either stays as Low 2-C or changes to High 3-A.

It was discussed in that thread, but to summarize; He can't be referring to just his power because he's talking about abilities in the plural, he can't be referring to his powers and abilities because he's talking about the magnitude of his abilities instead of the quantity, etc.

Off topic, nice job on this thread. I made mine pretty quickly because I got a little excited, this one is better structured.

 

[TheShape03]

I made this little analysis on Joe's statement.

TheShape03/sandbox13

fcoc-vs-battles.fandom.com

 

[El_rapero_de_tf2]

There doesn't seem to be any active discussion on this :'v

 

[OculoOmnibus]

I prefer it to continue to be called "Sonic.exe (Canon)" or "Sonic.exe (The X-Verse)", parentheses are not used to add secondary names. They should be added to clarify the verse the character belongs to when there are more characters with the same name.

I brought this up because pages for certain characters (such as the One Piece Admirals and Asa/Yoru's) have different naming conventions due to having different aliases they go under. Since Sonic.exe/X/Lord X goes under different names across the story and canonically just doesn't have one, I thought it would be the most accurate to just have Sonic.exe's page be something like "Sonic.exe (X)" or "Sonic.exe (Lord X)".

Being made of energy will no longer be considered incorporeality, but Intangibility. For the obvious case that energy is not something metaphysical or spiritual.

This is not a Staff/Wiki CRT. The page for Incorporeality still has being made of energy as a definition of it (I also updated the FC/OC one just so it matches it a bit more with the main site). We can't even use this at all unless you happen to have proof of it being discussed by staff.

Nonexistent Physiology is a resounding no, X is formed from an existing material and existing in a vacuum just like that does not qualify for it.

I see, I must have gotten confused at the definition of it. NEP seems to apply for things that just don't exist at all or aren't meant to exist (such as the original Creepypasta's X). There doesn't seem to be anything from here that alludes to the void being non-existent in nature.

Something else I just remembered, is that the same page refers to the universes within The Void as "dimensions", and X's world is also described as a dimension.

I just read the page again and there is no mention of "dimensions" there at all.

I made this little analysis on Joe's statement.

TheShape03/sandbox13

fcoc-vs-battles.fandom.com

I don't really agree much with the analysis but I'll wait on other people's opinions before commenting.

Off topic, nice job on this thread. I made mine pretty quickly because I got a little excited, this one is better structured.

Thanks!

There doesn't seem to be any active discussion on this :'v

Yeah I think it just needs to be posted in the main Sonic.exe Discussion Thread. Most the active people are in there from what I can tell.

 

[TheShape03]

I brought this up because pages for certain characters (such as the One Piece Admirals and Asa/Yoru's) have different naming conventions due to having different aliases they go under.

According to the editing rules page, that is wrong and should be changed.

This is not a Staff/Wiki CRT. The page for Incorporeality still has being made of energy as a definition of it (I also updated the FC/OC one just so it matches it a bit more with the main site). We can't even use this at all unless you happen to have proof of it being discussed by staff.

CRTs are no more or less valid if they are made by staff members or not. Anyone can make a CRT, the point is that it be accepted, that one hasn't been accepted yet.

The point is that energy is not incorporeal, the wiki describes being incorporeal as "not being physical" and energy is, in fact, that. If you don't believe me, touch any source of energy, if the energy hurts you, then it is not non-physical.

If you want to add it as incorporeality, fine. I can't do much against that until the changes are made to the Incorporeality page.

I just read the page again and there is no mention of "dimensions" there at all.

Lmao, I just got confused with JC's description of the same event in his version of the story. Forget the "dimensions" thing, the point still stands because of what I said before.

 

[El_rapero_de_tf2]

Profiles for Bandado, "Sonic", the Seven Guardians, the Annexes and EXE will be withheld because there is nothing to scale them off of as they do not have any official content.

I agree on waiting for official content to come out in order to make the profiles, but i just have one question.
Due to being created directly by X, shouldn't the guardians be somewhat comparable to the vessels X made for Alan, Dave and Paul?

 

[OculoOmnibus]

I agree on waiting for official content to come out in order to make the profiles, but i just have one question.
Due to being created directly by X, shouldn't the guardians be somewhat comparable to the vessels X made for Alan, Dave and Paul?

They would most likely be above that (so "At least 9-A"). The problem is that we have nothing to go off of for the Guardians' abilities unless we assume they also have emotionally empathic abilities like the previous canon's ones. Some like Kito likely can't even move either since they're petrified.

The only other official .EXE that has some kind of general basis for abilities is "Sonic"/2017, as he canonically has a move set that seems to be a mix of both actual Sonic and X (Doesn't mean he scales to Modern or anything, just that they have a similar skillset).

 

[OculoOmnibus]

It was discussed in that thread, but to summarize; He can't be referring to just his power because he's talking about abilities in the plural, he can't be referring to his powers and abilities because he's talking about the magnitude of his abilities instead of the quantity, etc.

Something I'm going to add onto this is that Dylan (X's VA) did actually give some more information on Joe's whole "no power level" statements. He has a direct line to him and is involved with projects. I'm now more inclined to believe the limitless abilities is just referring to the amount of powers he has since Joe has flat out stated that he hates power scaling.


Source: Exe Empire Discord:

To summarize, a "Varies; Up to [High 3-A/Low 2-C]" tier for X's powers is probably more accurate because the actual canon doesn't have any kind of concrete power level for him other than "He has lots and lots of powers but doesn't use them much".

 

[TheShape03]

Something I'm going to add onto this is that Dylan (X's VA) did actually give some more information on Joe's whole "no power level" statements. He has a direct line to him and is involved with projects. I'm now more inclined to believe the limitless abilities is just referring to the amount of powers he has since Joe has flat out stated that he hates power scaling.

That was already refuted in the analysis I did, he can't be referring to the amount of abilities because the example he gave (power) is described as unlimited and immeasurable, meaning he's referring to magnitude rather than quantity.

Hating powerscaling doesn't mean his character doesn't have a power level. Especially since he didn't deny that Lord X has a power level, he just said that he doesn't do powerscaling because he considers it ridiculous and irrelevant and that's why he can't answer that question.

 

[TheShape03]

The only other official .EXE that has some kind of general basis for abilities is "Sonic"/2017, as he canonically has a move set that seems to be a mix of both actual Sonic and X (Doesn't mean he scales to Modern or anything, just that they have a similar skillset).

According to that statement, "Sonic" and X are comparable.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

I'll ping everyone listed on the verse page to see if we can get more discussion, there isn't much people in here besides me, Shape and el_rapero.
@Sans2345 @Walker21232123 @Javenplayz253 @LeoEpicGamer8910

 

[TheShape03]

Okay, I've found a few things that I think would be good to discuss.

1- We have a new Low 2-C feat, it has been stated that EXE/Faker is able to destroy his reality and survive this event.

2- Raven stated that X far surpasses the standard characters of the Sonic universe and could fight Sonic, which would put X in 2-C and would be something that would reinforce the infinite speed topic (Raven mentions IDW stuff, meaning she's referring to a Post-Forces Sonic). Stating that the only way to deal with X would be if Sonic and cast get the Chaos Emeralds.

Also, even if we reject the above, this analysis seems pretty logical to me. If it's going to be rejected I think it's necessary to argue why it's not valid.

This is how I imagine X's profile with everything new added.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

1- We have a new Low 2-C feat, it has been stated that EXE/Faker is able to destroy his reality and survive this event.

I don't have a problem with EXE scaling to X, I think this was pretty obvious from the start (though again the universe debate is still ongoing). But I don't know how much information about him is public to make a profile for him yet since he doesn't have a game to go off of.

2- Raven stated that X far surpasses the standard characters of the Sonic universe and could fight Sonic, which would put X in 2-C and would be something that would reinforce the infinite speed topic (Raven mentions IDW stuff, meaning she's referring to a Post-Forces Sonic). Stating that the only way to deal with X would be if Sonic and cast get the Chaos Emeralds.

This I have a huge problem with using for a few reasons.

1. Raven is not WoG for the 2011 branch, JoeDoughBoi is. Unless Joe comments on something or she says he did, then the feat can be questioned (I don't think he will because he's very adamant about not engaging in powerscaling debates).
2. VS Battles Wiki Sonic scaling is a gigantic clusterfuck and most other fanfiction characters like HungryHero.EXE Sonic don't use this scaling chain at all, even when there were CRTs on it. There was even a debate on whether Furnace should use it or not too, and a current one with the Nightmare Universe.
3. I don't think Raven or most people doing fanfiction verses had in mind how the wiki scales Sonic when writing that.

Xenophanes being the weakest one out of the X's does seem consistent and can stay, since 2011 X is also able to make a 7-C thunderstorm without even trying. But having them jump straight to Low Multiversal or Complex Multiversal (Again, Sonic scaling chains here are complete bonkers and wanked as heck) because of a What-If not even supported by the actual owner of the character seems too dubious to use.

There is also a rule on the wiki for this.

If a fanwork consistently demonstrates and maintains a different level of power from the original work, it should be judged and tiered based on its own feats, not on scaling to canon, even if the original is stronger. If the fanwork is meant to fit within the official timeline, failing to duplicate feats of the same level is fine, but actively contradicting the canon power level is not. As a general rule, fanfiction should not be automatically scaled to canon without an argument in its favor.

• Naturally, this applies doubly to alternate universe and crossover fanfics, which can easily and often inherently contradict not just the statistics but also powers of the original canon materials.

So in conclusion, I don't think X should scale to base IDW Sonic characters because this isn't a JoeDoughBoi statement, the IDW Sonic world doesn't even exist in his own continuity and that this statement breaks the rule above.

Also, even if we reject the above, this analysis seems pretty logical to me. If it's going to be rejected I think it's necessary to argue why it's not valid.

This is how I imagine X's profile with everything new added.

I've seen the analysis and said earlier I didn't agree, though I've already made my point enough so I think it's best to have other people comment on it and give their thoughts.

 

[TheShape03]

I don't have a problem with EXE scaling to X, I think this was pretty obvious from the start (though again the universe debate is still ongoing). But I don't know how much information about him is public to make a profile for him yet since he doesn't have a game to go off of.

EXE doesn't need a profile for us to apply that to X, we'd just have to add "he is comparable to EXE, who could destroy his reality."

1. Raven is not WoG for the 2011 branch, JoeDoughBoi is. Unless Joe comments on something or she says he did, then the feat can be questioned (I don't think he will because he's very adamant about not engaging in powerscaling debates).

I detect a double standard in the fact that you were taking into account statements from someone who only lends his voice to X.

X-Verse is a collaborative verse with several owners, the EXE branch derives directly from 2011 and Raven even participates in the creation of canonical material from 2011 with Joe, such as the song X's lament, which makes her a reliable source. Much more than someone who only lends his voice to a character. Not to mention that Joe shared that post and didn't contradict it.

Edit: What's more, Raven is a reliable source for deciding X's canon because she was the one who said the song was canon in the video comments, and Joe not only didn't contradict her, but he pinned her comment.

2. VS Battles Wiki Sonic scaling is a gigantic clusterfuck and most other fanfiction characters like HungryHero.EXE Sonic don't use this scaling chain at all, even when there were CRTs on it. There was even a debate on whether Furnace should use it or not too, and a current one with the Nightmare Universe.

That's irrelevant in this case.

3. I don't think Raven or most people doing fanfiction verses had in mind how the wiki scales Sonic when writing that.

I also don't understand how that's relevant, the whole point of that conversation was that Raven declared that X would be a threat to Sonic and his friends, and how none of them could defeat him without the emeralds.

Xenophanes being the weakest one out of the X's does seem consistent and can stay, since 2011 X is also able to make a 7-C thunderstorm without even trying

That's another double standard, given that Astra's statement also takes into account other X's besides her own. Not to mention that Tier 2 is pretty consistent too, even more so than Tier 7-C.

But having them jump straight to Low Multiversal or Complex Multiversal (Again, Sonic scaling chains here are complete bonkers and wanked as heck) because of a What-If not even supported by the actual owner of the character seems too dubious to use.

Low Multiversal, not Complex (for now).

There is also a rule on the wiki for this.

Except that this was a conversation about the hypothetical case of X having to face the Sonic cast. It doesn't contradict the fact that Sonic's world doesn't exist in X's universe.

I've seen the analysis and said earlier I didn't agree, though I've already made my point enough so I think it's best to have other people comment on it and give their thoughts.

You keep saying you don't agree, but not why.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

EXE doesn't need a profile for us to apply that to X, we'd just have to add "it's comparable to EXE, who could destroy his reality."

Oh, I thought you were referring to an EXE profile, my bad.

I detect a double standard in the fact that you were taking into account statements from someone who only lends his voice to X.

I only used it when Dylan was providing information he got from Joe himself. Raven does not do this when she made her thread about X fighting the Sonic world.
Again, I also clarified in the main post update I made that Dylan is not a WoG and it's just something I threw in because he mentioned talking to Joe himself.

X-Verse is a collaborative verse with several owners, the EXE branch derives directly from 2011 and Raven even participates in the creation of canonical material from 2011 with Joe, such as the song X's lament, which makes her a reliable source. Much more than someone who only lends his voice to a character. Not to mention that Joe shared that post and didn't contradict it.

Not what I meant.
Raven is one of the co-owners for the Sonic.exe brand in general, but she is not a WoG on 2011 specifically, that is JoeDoughBoi. She is WoG on 2017/"Sonic" and EXE.

Edit: What's more, Raven is a reliable source for deciding X's canon because she was the one who said the song was canon in the video comments, and Joe not only didn't contradict her, but he pinned her comment.

Again, it was directly reinforced by Joe himself. What I said earlier wasn't.

That's another double standard, given that Astra's statement also takes into account other X's besides her own. Not to mention that Tier 2 is pretty consistent too, even more so than Tier 7-C.

The calculation provided for X's thunderstorm is the exact same tier as Xenophanes. I don't see how this can't be used.
Tier 2 is a whole different can of worms though because the guidelines are much different when scaling characters, plus the fact that X hasn't shown 2-C feats in canon either.

You keep saying you don't agree, but not why.

I was pointing out to my updated explanation in the original post, but I'll try and simplify it a bit more.

I particularly don't agree with it being his stats because when searching for other Tweets Joe made on the topic, he often says X's in general aren't comparable and that there is no way to determine a "strongest" between them (Links to tweets are in the original post). Considering how much he elaborates on this detail, I genuinely just don't agree with the sense that he meant not comparable as in him having so much raw power nothing can rival him, in my eyes I see it as him saying "he has a lot of wacky abilities he doesn't like to use, stop asking me if he can beat Y because there's no proper way to power scale him".

Even further, him having a variety of reality warping hax doesn't contradict the limitless statement and not having a power level because of it being incomparable, what exactly can you do if he just decides to make the environment around you light on fire? What can someone do if he just turns the air into mustard gas? His stats not being infinite doesn't contradict the statement at all if you look at it that way.

 

[Walker21232123]

Verse Changes

agree with everything here

rename it to "Sonic.exe (Lord X)" to accompany the fact that both are in the same continuity.

Disagree, Sonic.exe (Canon) is fine, and it still have the same problem that Shape had with Sonic.exe (X)

Downgrade from Low 2-C

If the only source for X's dimension being a universe is a page from an outdated wiki that no longer exists and also considering that 'world' does not always mean 'universe,' I agree that X should be downgrade to High 3-A,

Profile Changes and Additions

agree with everything here

2- Raven stated that X far surpasses the standard characters of the Sonic universe and could fight Sonic, which would put X in 2-C and would be something that would reinforce the infinite speed topic (Raven mentions IDW stuff, meaning she's referring to a Post-Forces Sonic). Stating that the only way to deal with X would be if Sonic and cast get the Chaos Emeralds.

If 'What If' FNF scenarios are non-canon, then by Occam's razor, other 'What If' scenarios with other franchises would be non-canon too. Also, Raven seems to treat IDW and Games as separate continuities. We should cross-scale because over one statement, like in fact Joe has mention that Base form Fleetway Sonic would beat Lord X.

Merged Keys for Sonic.exe and Lord X

I am still neutral on this

 

[OculoOmnibus]

If 'What If' FNF scenarios are non-canon, then by Occam's razor, other 'What If' scenarios with other franchises would be non-canon too. Also, Raven seems to treat IDW and Games as separate continuities. We should cross-scale because over one statement, like in fact Joe has mention that Base form Fleetway Sonic would beat Lord X.

Too add on to this, Joe said this as a joke and that any statements like this shouldn't be taken seriously.

He also says that Lord X doesn't lose to any version of Sonic in canon, so if we include Archie Sonic that would bump him to 1-C which is beyond anything shown in the verse. You can start to see the issues with using it lol.

 

[TheShape03]

I only used it when Dylan was providing information he got from Joe himself. Raven does not do this when she made her thread about X fighting the Sonic world.
Again, I also clarified in the main post update I made that Dylan is not a WoG and it's just something I threw in because he mentioned talking to Joe himself.

Not what I meant.
Raven is one of the co-owners for the Sonic.exe brand in general, but she is not a WoG on 2011 specifically, that is JoeDoughBoi. She is WoG on 2017/"Sonic" and EXE.

I mean, she's still a reliable source as WoG for the verse in general, unless she contradicts something Joe said, since she's one of the owners of the verse which is a collaborative verse. What we see in the twitters you linked are statements from who the creators of the different characters are.

Not to mention, she has a direct involvement in the 2011 timeline, since Faker/EXE and his entire story is part of that timeline. She's also worked alongside Joe making 2011 material and has decided on canon before.

Something worth mentioning is that we know Joe saw that post where Raven stated all those things, and shared the post without contradicting her statements.

Again, it was directly reinforced by Joe himself. What I said earlier wasn't.

It wasn't like that, Raven said the song was canon and Joe didn't contradict her even though we know he saw her comment, that means she's a reliable source as WoG unless Joe contradicts her.

The calculation provided for X's thunderstorm is the exact same tier as Xenophanes. I don't see how this can't be used.

The problem is that it's a double standard. On one hand you say that Raven doesn't have the power to make statements about X, and on the other you say that Astra can make a statement involving X and "Sonic".

Tier 2 is a whole different can of worms though because the guidelines are much different when scaling characters, plus the fact that X hasn't shown 2-C feats in canon either.

He created his universe, and he's comparable to someone who can destroy his reality. I call that consistency.

I particularly don't agree with it being his stats because when searching for other Tweets Joe made on the topic, he often says X's in general aren't comparable and that there is no way to determine a "strongest" between them (Links to tweets are in the original post

Let's see then.

JoeDoughBoi states in a tweet that Lord X has "limitless abilities" and that he holds back from using most of them because it makes his games unfair. It also ends off with the statement that there is no power level for him because it is "not relevant or something that can be measured/compared". However, in the reply section, Joe clarifies on more information with that he can lose and that there are still limitations he has that prevent him from simply taking over the world.

Having unlimited abilities even on the proposed scale doesn't mean he can't lose or doesn't have to follow rules, so this point doesn't disprove them.

Every time Joe mentions X having no comparable power level in tweets, he is often referring to how people rank him as "the strongest" X

The first tweet is one where Joe says "he's not the most powerful character", great, because nobody was raising that here.

The second tweet is one where he says he can't be measured, which really isn't something that has anything to do with the analysis I did either.

that the series does not have a strongest like in traditional power scaling.

As for these two scans, what Joe says is that powerscaling is something he doesn't do because he considers it stupid and irrelevant. Unfortunately, hating something doesn't mean it can't be applied and it doesn't deprive Joe of making any statement about it either.

With this in mind, I do not think the intention of the first statement was that he has immeasurable stats considering that he also has multiple different forms, with some being stated as stronger.

This doesn't contradict what I'm saying either, you can still be stronger than Low 2-C or 2-C, I don't understand where you're going with this part.

His main vessel form can also be destroyed by an M1 Abrams, implying that it has physical limitations.

This is a pretty blatant inconsistency, X's simplest feats already far outperform a tank shot.

DylanZeMuffin (2011 X's VA and a frequent collaborator of JoeDoughBoi) claims that Joe's explanation was indeed referring to the amount of abilities he has. Not really a direct WoG statement but it is something notable to throw in.

Which contradicts Joe's statement, so nevermind.

Even further, him having a variety of reality warping hax doesn't contradict the limitless statement and not having a power level because of it being incomparable, what exactly can you do if he just decides to make the environment around you light on fire? What can someone do if he just turns the air into mustard gas? His stats not being infinite doesn't contradict the statement at all if you look at it that way.

I mean, as I explained, Joe is referring to magnitude when he says "unlimited", so it's impossible that he's referring to the amount of hax.

 

[TheShape03]

If the only source for X's dimension being a universe is a page from an outdated wiki that no longer exists and also considering that 'world' does not always mean 'universe,' I agree that X should be downgrade to High 3-A,

The wiki isn't outdated, it was always considered canon by Joe and you'd have to prove that it isn't anymore. Not to mention I explained that said wiki calls the human universe "world" and calls X's realm "world" in the same paragraph. Which means that both should be comparable since they can be cosmologically described with the same word.

If 'What If' FNF scenarios are non-canon, then by Occam's razor, other 'What If' scenarios with other franchises would be non-canon too.

Actually, no. Joe didn't say that the "what if" scenarios were non-canon, he said that the FNF scenarios aren't. You're putting specific phrases where there aren't any when Joe is specifically referring to FNF.

Not to mention that most of it doesn't come from a what if, but from Raven declaring that X is more powerful than the Sonic characters and that they could only stop him with the emeralds.

Also, Raven seems to treat IDW and Games as separate continuities.

No? She said "say this happens in IDW", indicating that it would happen at the time IDW happens, she did not imply that they were two separate continuities. It's a very vague phrase for you to interpret it that way.

We should cross-scale because over one statement, like in fact Joe has mention that Base form Fleetway Sonic would beat Lord X.

I mean, it's a tweet from 2022, if a newer tweet contradicts that, then the newer one has a higher chance of being more reliable, retcons exist.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

The problem is that it's a double standard. On one hand you say that Raven doesn't have the power to make statements about X, and on the other you say that Astra can make a statement involving X and "Sonic".

That is not the problem I have.

My problem is that you're using a fallacy that involves "Author says Character A can be Character B from this series", which you CANNOT do under any ordinary power scaling circumstance unless that said author is also directly involved that said series.

This wiki does not use stuff like this because then you would have users flooding forums with CRTs as pointless as the Invincible creator saying he beats Superman, or Ian Flynn saying that Archie Sonic and Game Sonic are equal in power. This is an absolute no-go when debating and feats should only be restricted to what is shown or stated about the actual verse itself.

Lord X and "Sonic" are not characters in the Sonic universe, nor is their story set in the timeline of Modern Sonic with any equivalent events. They are from an entirely different verse that has Sonic as a fictional entity like in our world. Statements cross comparing characters between the same verse can work because it's the same verse, but proposing an upscale because one of the creators, who doesn't even own the specific character in question, went on Twitter and said "Yeah X beats the crap out of these characters from series B" does not warrant an upscale at all.

It's frankly ridiculous that this is even being considered.

 

[TheShape03]

My problem is that you're using a fallacy that involves "Author says Character A can be Character B from this series", which you CANNOT do under any ordinary power scaling circumstance unless that said author is also directly involved that said series.

Mention the fallacy I am committing.

This wiki does not use stuff like this because then you would have users flooding forums with CRTs as pointless as the Invincible creator saying he beats Superman, or Ian Flynn saying that Archie Sonic and Game Sonic are equal in power.

That's because VSBW has strict rules about WoG (which are bad, honestly. The author has the final say unless it contradicts the work), which FC/OC doesn't have.

• Word of god has more leeway here than it would on VSB, but it can only go so far, and should not be abused.

Lord X and "Sonic" are not characters in the Sonic universe, nor is their story set in the timeline of Modern Sonic with any equivalent events.

Which doesn't change the fact that WoG thinks Sonic.exe is stronger, and I'm sorry to say that their opinion is more important than yours, mine, or anyone else's.

Statements cross comparing characters between the same verse can work because it's the same verse, but proposing an upscale because one of the creators, who doesn't even own the specific character in question, went on Twitter and said "Yeah X beats the crap out of these characters from series B" does not warrant an upscale at all.

So if someone owns the character and says something about it, do we have to assume that they are lying? That their opinion doesn't count and they can't do whatever they want with their own character?

If I create a character, do I have to ask the powerscalers for permission to say that he can beat Goku? (Example)

Also, as a side note, Raven also considers Faker/EXE to be comparable to Sonic.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

On a side note, we honestly need more discussion in this CRT. If anyone is willing to add more to the discussion, please do so because we need more activity here.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

Bump

 

[El_rapero_de_tf2]

Shape's points seem more convincing

 

[OculoOmnibus]

Here's some new information I found.

• I'm changing my stance on the separate keys to neutral as in the old PC Port Discord server, Joe confirmed that 2011 and Lord X have the same abilities (which in turn, would have to mean the limitless abilities statements also apply to him as well). If full confirmation of 2011 having a Void/Internal Form or some equivalent is found, I'll switch up and agree with Shape in keeping it as one key.
• Raven does not own "Sonic" anymore and has no say in his direction, as ownership is now given to Alepie. We can't use her for 2017 WoG statements in the future unless she gets some degree of ownership back.
• Some more confirmation about spin-off content like FNF and fan games not being canon.
• Tom and Kyle still exist in the 2011/PC Port universe.
• Two things about Lord Mortis I managed to find:
  • He has Healing and Restoration as he can restore vessels, which also applies to X.
  • Mortis is not as powerful as X and would need another key for his current state (which is probably Unknown).

Hopefully this allows some more discussion here.