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The Unwritten downgrade

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Antvasima said:
@Confluctor

Please elaborate.
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I’m just gonna say, I’ve already kind of talked to Confluctor about the Unwritten in private and I agree with Confluctors stance on keeping the cosmologies current tier and only fixing the justifications. It would help if Samael_010 and Princestories could aid in creating the newer and better justifications for the Unwrittens current tier since they were very active in this thread and seem to know a lot about the Unwritten.
 
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Xearsay said:
I’m just gonna say, I’ve already kind of talked to Confluctor about the Unwritten in private and I agree with Confluctors stance on keeping the cosmologies current tier and only fixing the justifications. It would help if Samael_010 and Princestories could aid in creating the newer and better justifications for the Unwrittens current tier since they were very active in this thread and seem to know a lot about the Unwritten.
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Samael_010 said:
This fine?
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@Antvasima @Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831 @RatherClueless
 
Well, the language structure can definitely be improved in terms of grammar and being more easily understood regarding the reasons for the tiering.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, the language structure can definitely be improved in terms of grammar and being more easily understood regarding the reasons for the tiering.
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The explanation is quite bad in terms of grammar and the justification is still not very good, So I fixed it

Justifications:
Attack Potency: High Outerverse level (Leviathan and the cetacean species have completely transcended whole hierarchy of stories and they views the entire hierarchy as nothing more than a bubble dreams. The hierarchy of worlds is an endless hierarchy of stories, with no top or bottom and where a world on a lower layers is fictional to above layer it because the world below is irrelevant to the world above as they can write anything to them. An example is at the end of "The Unwritten Apocalypse", Wilson Taylor save the world with turn his son to a completely fictional character, later it was revealed that The Unwritten become something nothing as a fiction that Wilson write.) far higher with infinite regression (The Leviathan species have an Infinite regression where the above whales view lower whales as a dream with the final whales being the Mother of Leviathan's. The oceans where the Leviathan species lives is stacked like a towers, where each oceans has its own ecosystem that's underlies entire hierarchy of stories.)
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How?

Edit: I would also to request a profile Cetaceans hierarchy needs to be combined into one with the Leviathan profile. Looking at their profiles, both them have not been looked after by anyone for a long time
 
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you know, while we're at it, I have one concern in regards to the fictional worlds being transcendent. Why would they transcend, well, each other? There were some vague statements like them being stacked on top of each other like an endless staircase, but the scans are self-contradicting.
Here she says there's an endless hierarchy of worlds, but she explicitly says that Tom isn't any greater or more real than she is.

Here it is said that two separate worlds both view each other as fictional, meaning they both transcend each other, meaning that neither does
It was even verbatum stated that worlds "aren't stacked on top of each other, but are like a gordian knot". In the same Fables crossover, where most of the statements come from. So, why would the hierarchy of worlds even be High 1-B to begin with?
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
you know, while we're at it, I have one concern in regards to the fictional worlds being transcendent. Why would they transcend, well, each other? There were some vague statements like them being stacked on top of each other like an endless staircase, but the scans are self-contradicting.
Here she says there's an endless hierarchy of worlds, but she explicitly says that Tom isn't any greater or more real than she is.

Here it is said that two separate worlds both view each other as fictional, meaning they both transcend each other, meaning that neither does
It was even verbatum stated that worlds "aren't stacked on top of each other, but are like a gordian knot". In the same Fables crossover, where most of the statements come from. So, why would the hierarchy of worlds even be High 1-B to begin with?
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Wow... I really didn't want Unwritten to lose its High 1-A rating, but this CRT is taking a sharp turn, huh? We might need to get more supporters in here:
I'm listed as a supporter, but I can't say more as I've only read several chapters.
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
you know, while we're at it, I have one concern in regards to the fictional worlds being transcendent. Why would they transcend, well, each other?
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I have provided a explanation transcendent in each hierarchy of stories in above justifications.

Da_Lunge_Fish said:
There were some vague statements like them being stacked on top of each other like an endless staircase, but the scans are self-contradicting.
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That's not contradictory at all, The statement that each hierarchy is stacked on top of each other has been stated twice by Lizzie and Darkman

Darkman:

"World upon world, stacked upon each other like tiers of some vast wedding cake. (The Unwritten #52)

Lizzie:

"yeah, now you're getting it. someone told me once the worlds are stacked like cordwood in a barn. Well, we just dropped one level in the stack, and there's no coming back. Wilson wrote us all. Is writing us all" (The Unwritten Apocalypse #12).


Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Here she says there's an endless hierarchy of worlds, but she explicitly says that Tom isn't any greater or more real than she is.
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That has been further statement by Mike Carey.

Carey: What we're doing is that we've picked up on what Tom has learned from the "Unwritten Fables" arc. There is a crucial scene at the end of the arc where he is talking to Frau Totenkinder, and she basically challenges his superficial distinction reality and fiction and says, "It's not really like that." The stairwell of the world has no top and no bottom. You can't imagine that your world is somehow more privileged over all of these other worlds. As we go into "Apocalypse," Tom is trying to make his way back home to his reality, his baseline
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Da_Lunge_Fish said:
I swear that wasn't my intention....

I'm just reading this rn, I've finished the main series, got the Apocalypse left
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sadly my laptop actin up so i cant really reply to you. I guess get to the end of apocalypse first because the transcendent is really clear there and it came after Fables arc. The whole point of that issue is how Tom become 100% fictional and the whole stories is written by Wilson in higher stories.

Me (or PrinceStories) gonna try to explain Fables arc with my bad english after that.
 
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@Da_Lunge_Fish A little additional regarding your input, "aren't stacked on top of each other, but are like a gordian knot" what meant by this question is that each story reflects another story from the lower hierarchy, so that each story is a real world with its own perception.

Tom Taylor:
"As though to be real and to be in a story were very different things. is this what you believe"

Aslan:
"It--it's what i did believe. up until now but i was wrong wasn't i? my world is just like any other story. and you're not the first to tell me that."

Source: (The Unwritten Apocalypse #1)
 
PrinceStories said:
@Da_Lunge_Fish A little additional regarding your input, "aren't stacked on top of each other, but are like a gordian knot" what meant by this question is that each story reflects another story from the lower hierarchy, so that each story is a real world with its own perception.

Tom Taylor:
"As though to be real and to be in a story were very different things. is this what you believe"

Aslan:
"It--it's what i did believe. up until now but i was wrong wasn't i? my world is just like any other story. and you're not the first to tell me that."

Source: (The Unwritten Apocalypse #1)
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ok, so I get that the world Wilson Taylor resides in trascends all other stories. My question is, how do all stories transcend each other?
Stories are clearly stressed to work the same way, and none of them are really superior to each other
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
you know, while we're at it, I have one concern in regards to the fictional worlds being transcendent. Why would they transcend, well, each other? There were some vague statements like them being stacked on top of each other like an endless staircase, but the scans are self-contradicting.
Here she says there's an endless hierarchy of worlds, but she explicitly says that Tom isn't any greater or more real than she is.
Click to expand...


You're misinterprenting the point of Fables arc, It was supossedly to be where everything what we bealive in the start of the series was cleared

If you noticed on how The Unwritten start, Tom Taylor never threated these stories as something such as their own world or something more than an fictional narrative, Tom Threated these stories as something as not real something like a game or an illusion. Tom bealive that his world are the only thing that "real" and the only thing that's matter.

All of that was true until we get to Fables arc where the line between reality and fictional blur, It was the turning point of Tom Taylor character where his belief that he was different from any stories were false. There no such as "Real world" it just a "First Stories" and what come after.

That were this dialogue played part.

"Are you MAD? It's me. not Tommy, I don't have any MAGIC. And i don't--I dont even BEALIVE in any of this!"

"Child, have you learned NOTHING here? do you still think yourself GREATER than us? More REAL than we?"

This is where Tom realized that these Stories also are "real" world on their own and also must be saved.

Its not really an incosistency or contradiction it just how Mike Carey explained his belief through his work to write Tom character development.
image.png


To top all that the last issue of Apocalypse plot is how Tom Taylor dropped 1 level from the hierarchy and become fictional from his dad view.

TLDR:
That first Totenkinder statement is not meant in VS debating way it just to point out Tom belief. the R>F stuff literary come 7 issue after that and its clear shit🥶
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
My question is, how do all stories transcend each other?
Stories are clearly stressed to work the same way, and none of them are really superior to each other
Click to expand...
Peter Gross (Co-Writer and Artist of the Unscribed) has explained that, this process hierarchy of stories will naturally create a series, a hierarchy. When we create fiction we also create other worlds that think we are God, they will become aware and they will also create their own world where they are gods and so on, this means each story creates another stories and reflects them as a stack hierarchies within each world in The Unwritten and so on.

Gross: I think there is an urge in humankind to create surreality. In our stories, we are always trying to create another reality; in our art, we are trying to create another reality. Look what you can do with movies and 3D printing. We're trying to create another reality alongside the other reality that we have. It's our basic nature. It's like striving to become God. There's something going as we are able to create virtual realities.
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Gross: If I gave any credence to the idea of there being a God, it would be that we are the gaming creations of some other reality. [Laughs] We're like "Sim City" becoming self aware. And we're going to end up creating our own reality, which we will be the god and then they will become aware and then they will create theirs. Maybe we're just this series of toys..
Click to expand...

In the Apocalypse series #12, transcendence each hierarchy of stories is also very clearly shown through Tom and Lizzie conversation where the differences in each hierarchy are additions which Tom says are literal truths where each story is just like fiction in each other's book.

I think the sandman explanation is pretty bad by currents standards and outdated, maybe in the future I will create thread The Unwritten cosmology explanation with a new justification.
 
Likely both, but I no longer remember well. My apologies. 🙏
 
That seems fine to me.

Should I close this thread then?

One of you will need to inform me after your new revision thread has been finished though, and preferably remind me that I asked you to do so in conjunction. 🙏
 
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