• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The possibility of Maiar true forms

Status
Not open for further replies.
1,322
94
Currently the Valar have true forms ranked as Low 2-C because of three quotes:

1.

"Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Il├║vatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Il├║vatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void."

2.

"Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Il├║vatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged."

3.

"Then Il├║vatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Il├║vatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But Il├║vatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.

But when they were come into the Void, Il├║vatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew.
"

In the above quotes, the Ainur ceate the universe and is laws, and Eru brings it into being in the Void.

However, there is one glaring issue with this: The work Valar, is never mentioned in the above quotes.

In all of these quotes it says stuff like this:

"Then the Ainur were afraid"

"Mighty are the Ainur"

"But Il├║vatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him"

"What is the diffrence between the Valar and the Ainur?" You might be asking, well, while the Valar are the fourteen strongest of the Ainur that went into Ea, the Ainur is a collective term for both the Valar and the Maiar.

Giving the Valar Low 2-C forms and not the Maiar is like giving Morgoth, Manwe and Varda Low 2-C forms, but no one else.

So, either the Low 2-C forms should be removed completely, or both Maiar and Valar should have them.
 
Given that all of them collaborated in a group with building the universal space-time continuum, I think that the Valar should be rescaled to tier High 3-A instead.
 
Anyway, you can inform Azathoth about this thread.
 
Antvasima said:
Given that all of them collaborated in a group with building the universal space-time continuum, I think that the Valar should be rescaled to tier High 3-A instead.
I actually have a theory about that.

The space-time of the universe is infinite, since the actaul time of the universe will continue, even after a google years when all the stars are dead, time will still exist.

Think of the sapce-time as a ribbon. No matter how many times you cut the ribbon, if it is infinitly long (With the length being the atual time of the universe, and the width being its space), it will always remain infinite.

So really, embodying an aspect of the universe, no matter how small, is the same as embodying the entire universe.
 
It's kinda similar to the universal abstracts in marvel right? They embody part of the universe but are still low 2c
 
Well, they are also scaled from being more powerful than cosmic cubes, and will receive an upgrade eventually.
 
Well, since this is a continuation of the LOTR revision eralier, this is as good a place as any to ask whether this is a good image for Saruman:
1oshuart - Saruman


And this one for Curumo:

Istari curumo by moi keiniku sang
 
The first image is good, but I do not care much for the second.
 
The reason I think only Melkor and the other Valar should get Low 2-C is because it was only Melkor on his own who was able to affect the entirety of the music.

"But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilu´vatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilu´vatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilu´vatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.


Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Ilu´vatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.
"

The other Valar were the only ones relatively comparable to Melkor himself, so they would scale to Low 2-C whereas Maiar would be High 3-A.

Though if other people only want to rate Melkor as Low 2-C and give the other Valar a "possibly", that's fine too.
 
I suppose that should be fine.
 
Okay.

Can I add them then?

I have made categories for the Maiar so it should be easy to unlock them, if this is accepted.
 
Only if you make sure that the grammar is correct, and that there is no bulky code inserted, so I do not have to clean up a lot of profiles for you.
 
Which pages do you need unlocked?
 
Tell me here when you are done.
 
Just a little request, I forgot to insert proper justification for Gandalf's stats during the last revision.

Is it okay if I fix that mistake now?
 
You can insert a justification for Gandalf, yes.

I will unlock Ossë.
 
I am finished, however, before you lock them, I would like to add a tabber for Gandalf's Olorin form.

Th9J5AZ5WV
This is the picture most commonly used to represent him as Olorin and the one most would be familiar with
 
I am fine with if you add the Olorin image.
 
I haven't checked your latest revision for today yet.

Should I lock the pages?
 
I was refering to the revision before that.

I think locking the pages is fine, but try to only lock those that you unlocked (Like Sauron and Gandalf), otherwise it will be very difficult if I notice some error to fix it.
 
I will lock the following:

Gandalf

Sauron

Ossë

Eonwe

Arien
 
Oh god, I made stupid mistake.

Both Sauron and Eonwe have the strongest Maiar, which is like saying the strongest gods.

That should be changed to just Maia.
 
I tried to fix it.

Is there anything left to do here, or should we close this thread?
 
Thank you.


No, not really, though I did add justification for Immeasurable to the Maiar, so maybe we should add it to the Valar?
 
Immeasurable speed seems very exaggerated. Even if they existed in a timeless environment, that would only warrant infinite speed, not immeasurable.
 
Also, immeasurable strength is generally reserved for Low 2-C and above.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top