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Hi. I, like many others, have issues regarding the new Tier 0, but seeing as someone else has already made a thread for it, I guess I'll take as slightly different angle by arguing that Tier 0 shouldn't even be a tier that exists as only the IRL author would qualify for the definition given.
First off, I'll go over this point I saw before.....
"Tier 0's are not necessarily JUST the cosmology of the verse. They are also independent of the cosmology. If a verse normally caps at High 1A without a monad, then the monad is not only higher, but also independent of whatever the verse caps at normally. This is why it's explained that even if a verse is universal normally, it's still possible and allowed for a tier 0 monad to exist at its apex."
There's just one problem with this. Said monad would still be made to exist within the fictional verse it's written into. A Monad wouldn't be outside and independent of the cosmology because it's still bound to the fictional verse. It would just be the highest layer, which as previously discussed in the original creation thread, would not qualify it for Tier 0. Furthermore, logical impossibilities are not Tier 0 either. Why? Because you wouldn't be able to even put them in the verse to begin with without making them logically possible to explain, and thus, not be logically impossible (Unless they have Logic Manipulation, but by that logic, so many characters would qualify for Tier 0). Otherwise, it's just a bunch of gibberish someone puts into their story that sounds like it would come out of Joke Battles Wiki to describe a meme character. The only way to actually have a being independent of the cosmology and be Tier 0 would be to make it independent of the verse, and thus, fiction, as a whole. The only being capable of that is well, the IRL author of the story.
"This is a "you problem." Lots of people disliked the previous tier 0(including me) but vice versa was also the case. Just gotta suck it up and deal with it. I personally think having a tier 0 that tells us how an actual boundless, unbeatable character scales is far better than a tier 0 where up to 30 others from the same verse can scale to. How can you be boundless, yet limited to another character that is apparently "2-layers" into boundless urgh...sounds cringe.""
Fun fact: If something told you how an actual boundless, unbeatable character scales, they were never those qualities to begin with, as that would imply that their Boundless qualities would be limited to logical measurements and scaling (Which for a Tier 0 character, cannot be done). IE, instead of having a Tier 0 where many characters scale to, it becomes a Tier 0 in which no one scales to. Not to mention..... Boundless? Going to be honest, not the best name for a tier. If the naming convention of "2-layers into Boundless" sounds off, remove Tier 0, and replace High 1-A+ with 1-S, and name it Extraversal (Like what CSAP Wiki did. BTW, Extraversal is a far better name for.the highest tier imo).It was actually because of the new Tier 0 definition here that got me to switch to using the CSAP scaling.
Also, the sentence "how an actual boundless, unbeatable character scales" is a contradiction in of itself. Why? Because if it could be scaled, then it would be bound to its cosmology/fictional verse (As you need cosmology to scale characters appropriately). As such, it's not possible to scale them. Not to mention , if something is actually qualified for Boundless, it is truly boundless and unbeatable, which would make it Omnipotent, right? Problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this Wiki has explained that Omnipotence in the way it's typically thought of, does not exist. That alone should show why this definition of Tier 0 doesn't work, because the definition of Tier 0 is impossible to actually use.
"Powerscaling is not a concept with limitless imagination or ideas. The very foundation of most powerscalings comes from Philosophy, maths and Physics. For the longest time, we've been using mainly maths as the determinant of size/powerlevel and maths/physics have limits regardless of whatever infinity we use. Philosophy on the other hand has ridiculous theologies like Neoplatonism, Negative Theology, etc implemented with religious teachings which disregard the notions of size, effability or anything that defines limits. That is the only true way to "gauge" how powerful the apex tier would be. Having gazillion characters from the same verse scaling to the same "apex tier"(looking at you SCP) just makes the idea of tier 0 boring and pointless and it's not even supposed to be that way."
When you start using Theological terms, you start to get into very muddy waters as everyone perceives Theological ideas and beliefs wildly differently than everyone else. Basing the upper echelons on what a comparatively small group of people think is the correct way to use Theological arguments, you start to get into subjects that seep into reality as it's a pretty touchy subject for everyone to talk about, not to mention.....
"The sole purpose of fiction is to escape reality."
So why implement genuinely touchy subjects into reality onto everyone and force them to follow it? Sure they could go to a different Wiki if they don't like this one, and thus, they wouldn't be "forced" to follow it, but not only do quite a few other big Wikis copy this Tier System (Except for stuff like CSAP), but this Wiki would further dig its own grave of reputation that it already has. Not to mention, using theological arguments in fiction doesn't support Tier 0 anyways. Again. Regardless of how powerful you make a character, or how theological you wish to get with them, they're still bound to their fiction at the end of the day, and would this just make them the highest layer of their fictional cosmology, which would only qualify Tier 0 for High 1-A+ at best. The only one who can truly transcend that is also the only one independent of the verse, that being the author themself, the only Tier 0 that can truly exist. I don't care how many mathematical or theological arguments are made. At the end of the day, they're still bound to their verse.
In conclusion, I don't think that this Tier 0 is going to cut it because the only people qualified are real people. Going down the CSAP route in regards to the Tier System with Extraversal might be better move overall instead of making a very contradictory Boundless tier that no characters in fiction would actually scale to, which would otherwise make it a completely null and void tier. Feel free to feed me to the wolves if you completely disagree, but this is just my two cents about it all.
First off, I'll go over this point I saw before.....
"Tier 0's are not necessarily JUST the cosmology of the verse. They are also independent of the cosmology. If a verse normally caps at High 1A without a monad, then the monad is not only higher, but also independent of whatever the verse caps at normally. This is why it's explained that even if a verse is universal normally, it's still possible and allowed for a tier 0 monad to exist at its apex."
There's just one problem with this. Said monad would still be made to exist within the fictional verse it's written into. A Monad wouldn't be outside and independent of the cosmology because it's still bound to the fictional verse. It would just be the highest layer, which as previously discussed in the original creation thread, would not qualify it for Tier 0. Furthermore, logical impossibilities are not Tier 0 either. Why? Because you wouldn't be able to even put them in the verse to begin with without making them logically possible to explain, and thus, not be logically impossible (Unless they have Logic Manipulation, but by that logic, so many characters would qualify for Tier 0). Otherwise, it's just a bunch of gibberish someone puts into their story that sounds like it would come out of Joke Battles Wiki to describe a meme character. The only way to actually have a being independent of the cosmology and be Tier 0 would be to make it independent of the verse, and thus, fiction, as a whole. The only being capable of that is well, the IRL author of the story.
"This is a "you problem." Lots of people disliked the previous tier 0(including me) but vice versa was also the case. Just gotta suck it up and deal with it. I personally think having a tier 0 that tells us how an actual boundless, unbeatable character scales is far better than a tier 0 where up to 30 others from the same verse can scale to. How can you be boundless, yet limited to another character that is apparently "2-layers" into boundless urgh...sounds cringe.""
Fun fact: If something told you how an actual boundless, unbeatable character scales, they were never those qualities to begin with, as that would imply that their Boundless qualities would be limited to logical measurements and scaling (Which for a Tier 0 character, cannot be done). IE, instead of having a Tier 0 where many characters scale to, it becomes a Tier 0 in which no one scales to. Not to mention..... Boundless? Going to be honest, not the best name for a tier. If the naming convention of "2-layers into Boundless" sounds off, remove Tier 0, and replace High 1-A+ with 1-S, and name it Extraversal (Like what CSAP Wiki did. BTW, Extraversal is a far better name for.the highest tier imo).It was actually because of the new Tier 0 definition here that got me to switch to using the CSAP scaling.
Also, the sentence "how an actual boundless, unbeatable character scales" is a contradiction in of itself. Why? Because if it could be scaled, then it would be bound to its cosmology/fictional verse (As you need cosmology to scale characters appropriately). As such, it's not possible to scale them. Not to mention , if something is actually qualified for Boundless, it is truly boundless and unbeatable, which would make it Omnipotent, right? Problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this Wiki has explained that Omnipotence in the way it's typically thought of, does not exist. That alone should show why this definition of Tier 0 doesn't work, because the definition of Tier 0 is impossible to actually use.
"Powerscaling is not a concept with limitless imagination or ideas. The very foundation of most powerscalings comes from Philosophy, maths and Physics. For the longest time, we've been using mainly maths as the determinant of size/powerlevel and maths/physics have limits regardless of whatever infinity we use. Philosophy on the other hand has ridiculous theologies like Neoplatonism, Negative Theology, etc implemented with religious teachings which disregard the notions of size, effability or anything that defines limits. That is the only true way to "gauge" how powerful the apex tier would be. Having gazillion characters from the same verse scaling to the same "apex tier"(looking at you SCP) just makes the idea of tier 0 boring and pointless and it's not even supposed to be that way."
When you start using Theological terms, you start to get into very muddy waters as everyone perceives Theological ideas and beliefs wildly differently than everyone else. Basing the upper echelons on what a comparatively small group of people think is the correct way to use Theological arguments, you start to get into subjects that seep into reality as it's a pretty touchy subject for everyone to talk about, not to mention.....
"The sole purpose of fiction is to escape reality."
So why implement genuinely touchy subjects into reality onto everyone and force them to follow it? Sure they could go to a different Wiki if they don't like this one, and thus, they wouldn't be "forced" to follow it, but not only do quite a few other big Wikis copy this Tier System (Except for stuff like CSAP), but this Wiki would further dig its own grave of reputation that it already has. Not to mention, using theological arguments in fiction doesn't support Tier 0 anyways. Again. Regardless of how powerful you make a character, or how theological you wish to get with them, they're still bound to their fiction at the end of the day, and would this just make them the highest layer of their fictional cosmology, which would only qualify Tier 0 for High 1-A+ at best. The only one who can truly transcend that is also the only one independent of the verse, that being the author themself, the only Tier 0 that can truly exist. I don't care how many mathematical or theological arguments are made. At the end of the day, they're still bound to their verse.
In conclusion, I don't think that this Tier 0 is going to cut it because the only people qualified are real people. Going down the CSAP route in regards to the Tier System with Extraversal might be better move overall instead of making a very contradictory Boundless tier that no characters in fiction would actually scale to, which would otherwise make it a completely null and void tier. Feel free to feed me to the wolves if you completely disagree, but this is just my two cents about it all.
