The mega-mini Baki CRT

[CuddleFox]

A while ago, I made a video showing a ranking of Baki characters. It was originally meant to be something small, for fun and to give me an excuse to reread my favorite fights, but I realized when I compared the characters to make my ranking and reread everything again that there were a lot of minor inconsistencies in the actual tiering. (Like hanayama dou being rated slightly higher than oliva having done worse than him against Yujiro, or shiba being rated 9-B when he is clearly comparable to Baki when he was fighting gangs. That kind of thing).
These inconsistencies are hard to catch, due to the fact that the pages are separated from each other, every time I was sure I had caught them all, I found a new one. And it wasn't one or two, there were literally dozens of them, I'm not exaggerating.
This is due to the fact that we've been doing a lot of CRTs lately, which changed the tiering of many characters, and that many tiers of the characters that downscaled from yujiro were chosen in a hurry.
Added to that, a lot of new low-tier character pages were created in one go by me with the help of amlad22 and notoriousoda in the hope of being fleshed out later.
And on top of all that, some automatisms we have regarding the tiers of some characters. (Prime doppo being weaker than Oliva and Dou Hanayama while having done bigger damages to Yujiro)

So I took the decision to completely throw away all the current tiering and make a new one involving all 84 current characters and all their keys.
What you are about to read is the fruit of a small intention that turned into weeks of work where everything was thought out. A mini-mega CRT.

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At least 8-A, likely higher

Character	Tier extension	Reason of tiering	Additional explanation
Baki (VS Yujiro to current)	higher with Demon Back	Base is comparable to Yujiro (At least 8-A, likely higher), and stronger than Sukune II (At least 8-A) Demon Back is comparable to Demon Back Yujiro	I consider Baki being stronger than Sukune due to him being toying with Sukune all the way, Sukune pointing out that he took "that much damage" from what seemed to be a casual kick. Underestimating his triceratops fist by a wide margin etc.
Yujiro	higher with Demon Back	Base is stronger than Sukune II (At least 8-A), Demon Back is stronger than his base	-
T-Rex	-	Comparable to transformed Pickle (higher than at least 8-A, likely higher)	-
Katsumi (SOO with Hitless Blow)	-	Comparable to serious Pickle (At least 8-A, likely higher)	-
Katsumi (Dou II with Hitless Blow)	-	Comparable to his previous Hitless Blow, although noticeably stronger	-
Kaku (with Shaori)	-	Comparable to base Yujiro (At least 8-A, likely higher) with Shaori	-
Pickle (serious)	higher with transformation	Comparable to base Yujiro (At least 8-A, likely higher), his transformation is stronger	-
Musashi (with his katanas)	higher at full power	Comparable to base Yujiro (At least 8-A, likely higher), full power is comparable to Demon Back Yujiro	-
Honoo (with his suplex attack)	-	Comparable to current base Baki (At least 8-A, likely higher)	-

Likely at least 8-A, likely higher

Deinonychus

-

Likely comparable to serious Pickle (At least 8-A, likely higher)

-

At least 8-A

Sukune II

-

Far stronger than Oliva (At least 8-B+, likely higher)

-

8-A

Jack (Dou)	-	Comparable to equiped Dou Motobe (8-A)	-
Doppo (Prime)	-	Far weaker than base Yujiro (At least 8-A, likely higher)	Did way better against a casual Yujiro than Oliva
Yuichiro	higher with Demon Back	Base is comparable to Prime Doppo (8-A), Demon Back is stronger than his base	I re-read every apparition of Yuichiro and it is never mentionned that he is comparable to Yujiro, was called the strongest when Yujiro was alive or is the only man Yujiro cannot defeat, for what I see, he took damage from Prime Doppo and his demon back self fought a less technologically advanced army than Yujiro. If there is an evidence somewhere that I missed, I'll gladly take it. It should be linked in his page.
Motobe (dou with equipment)	-	Far weaker than katana musashi (At least 8-A, likely higher) with equipment	-

At least 8-B+, likely higher

Jack (SOO)	-	Get one-shot by serious Pickle (At least 8-A, likely higher)	Jack is debatably an equal to Oliva and SOO Demon Back Baki at this point, as he took multiple blows from a serious pickle before being knocked out and was likely ko before the last blow and oliva only took 2 attacks from Yujiro but was still conscious after that.
Shibukawa (Aiki)	-	Aiki scale to Oliva (At least 8-B+, likely higher)	Aiki scaling to Oliva is due to Kyogei overpowering Aiki while being weaker/comparable to Reiho, who did as much against Sukune than Oliva, which implies that if Oliva really tried like Kyogei did, he would have been maybe able to overpower Aiki too. Oliva failing to overpower Aiki is likely due to it being the first time, like many other characters stronger than him such as Musashi or Sukune.
Oliva	-	Far stronger than SOO base Baki (8-B+)	-
Baki (Post-recovery until Yujiro with demon back)	-	Comparable to Oliva (At least 8-B+, likely higher)	-
Kyogei	-	Comparable to Shibukawa's Aiki (At least 8-B+, likely higher)	-
Reiho	-	Far weaker than Sukune 2 (At least 8-A)	-
Pickle (Casual)	-	His casual self is far stronger than base SOO Baki (8-B+)	Added a casual stat because some other characters scale to his casual self, and his casual strength is consistant each time it is used.
Hanayama (SOO to current)	-	Comparable to casual Pickle (At least 8-B+, likely higher) who is far stronger than SOO base Baki (8-B+), get one-shot by Yujiro (At least 8-A, likely higher)	Hanayama didn't got stronger since SOO, he even did worse against Yujiro than Oliva, his fight with musashi should grant him a resistance to blades since it makes no sense that he tanked ten of musashi's attacks but not one from base yujiro and he likely isn't at Yujiro's level by the end of Dou.
Retsu (Dou)	-	Get one-shot by katana Musashi (At least 8-A, likely higher)	Shaori should be noted in his dura.
Musashi (unnarmed)	-	His unnarmed self is comparable to Dou Retsu (At least 8-B+, likely higher) and incomparably stronger than Motobe (At least 9-A, likely far higher)	His dura should be varying up to at least 8-A, likely higher depending on the opponent.
Shishimaru	-	Comparable to Kyogei (At least 8-B+, likely higher)	Is noted by the chairman to be the only one with reiho capable of throwing Kyogei. It should be noted that he has a higher durability, due to tanking Katsumi's Hitless Blow. Even if he took heavy damage from it. (I would choose 8-A)
Katsumi (Dou II)	-	Comparable to Shishimaru (At least 8-B+, likely higher)	There shouldn't be a higher for retsu's spirit, since it's just retsu's techniques with Katsumi's strength.

At least 8-B+

Doppo (Dou)	-	Comparable to Taketsurugi (At least 8-B+), get one-shot by katana Musashi (At least 8-A, likely higher)	His lower tier despite being one-shot by musashi like dou retsu is due to Taketsurugi being noted as weaker than Shishimaru, Kyogei and Reiho (Him and Honoo are the only one who can't throw kyogei according to the chairman) and that being one-shot can mean basically any lower level. (Plus he did worse than retsu against musashi, but that doesn't mean much since he didn't land a single blow)
Taketsurugi	-	Weaker than Shishimaru, Kyogei and Reiho (At least 8-B+, likely higher)	Taketsurugi should not have a higher durability due to tanking doppo's attacks, as he clearly took damage from every blow, but he seems to have a huge stamina and an ability to delay the effects, as noted multiple times by the rest of the cast during the fight.
Honoo (usually)	-	Incomparably weaker than current base Baki (At least 8-A, likely higher)	It should be noted that he has a likely higher durability, due to tanking Baki's cockroach jab. Even if he took heavy damages from it.
Iwao Muneuchi	-	Far weaker than Prime Doppo (8-A)	Iwao actually damaged Doppo during their fight with a strike of the elbow, he wasn't that far from him as we may think.
Katsumi (SOO)	-	Weaker than casual Pickle (At least 8-B+, likely higher)	-
Retsu (SOO)	-	Comparable to SOO Katsumi. (At least 8-B+)	-
Crasier	-	Comparable to SOO Retsu (At least 8-B+)	-

8-B+

Baki (Post-recovery until Yujiro)	higher with Demon Back	Base scale to his earthquake feat (8-B+), Demon back is comparable to Oliva (At least 8-B+, likely higher) who is far stronger than Baki's base	It should be noted that Baki's attacks had less effects on a casual Pickle than Katsumi's and that even Retsu could block his attacks. It is shown by Pickle's kick having much bigger effects on him (comparable or bigger than oliva's attacks) and later him making fun of Baki's fist, which he never did to anyone before.
Shachihoko	-	Far weaker than current Hanayama (At least 8-B+, likely higher)	-
Shobun	-	Far weaker than Oliva (At least 8-B+, likely higher), Did slightly worse against a serious Oliva than base SOO Baki (8-B+)	-
Guevara	-	Far weaker than Oliva (At least 8-B+, likely higher)	Got trashed in two hits by serious oliva, more or less like shobun.

At least 9-A, likely far higher

Motobe (Dou physically)

-

likely incomparably stronger than his NGB self

-

At least 9-A, likely higher

Jack (Tournament to NGB)	higher with maxing, higher post-bone expension	Base is comparable to post-Retsu Baki (At least 9-A, likely higher), maxing is stronger than that, post-bone expension is stronger than that	-
Doppo (post-Yujiro)	-	Stronger than Dorian (At least 9-A), one-shot Doyle (9-A)	-
Filth	-	Comparable to Doppo (At least 9-A, likely higher)	-
Ali (Prime)	-	Far stronger than a prime Igari who is likely far stronger than his current self (9-A)	-
Ali jr	-	Comparable to Doppo (At least 9-A, likely higher)	-

At least 9-A

Baki (Tournament to NGB)	likely higher post-Retsu, higher post-night with Kozue, higher with Demon Back	Base is comparable to Retsu (At least 9-A), post-retsu is far stronger than Retsu, post-night with Kozue is stronger than that, Demon Back is stronger than that	Baki should have had a mention for his power-up due to Kozue long ago
Hanayama (Tournament to NGB)	-	Stronger than Spec (9-A)	-
Katsumi (Tournament to NGB)	higher with Mach Punch	Base is weaker/comparable to Tournament Hanayama (At least 9-A), Mach Punch is stronger than Tournament Hanayama	-
Retsu (Tournament to NGB)	-	Far stronger than Doyle (9-A), scale to his wall-pulverizing feat	-
Gaia (NGB to dou)	-	Comparable to Sikorsky (At least 9-A)	-
Shiba (SOO)	-	Incomparably higher than his tournament self (At least 9-C+)	-
Zulu	-	Comparable to Tournament Baki (At least 9-A)	-
Kinryuuzan	-	Far stronger than Igari (9-A)	-
Yu Amanai	-	Weaker than Doppo (At least 9-A, likely higher)	Did better against Doppo than Dorian
Gallen	-	Weaker than Tournament Jack (At least 9-A, likely higher)	-
Dorian	higher with equipment	Base is stronger than Katsumi (At least 9-A), his equipment one-shot Doppo (At least 9-A, likely higher)	-
Sikorsky	-	Far stronger than Igari (9-A), weaker than post-retsu Baki (At least 9-A, likely higher)	-
Jyaku	-	Comparable to Retsu (At least 9-A)	-
Yoh Kaioh	-	Shown comparable to Dorian (At least 9-A) likely weaker in fact	-

Unknown, likely at least 9-A

Ryu Kaioh

-

Likely comparable to Retsu (At least 9-A)

Unknown due to the fact we never saw him fight someone on his level.

9-A

Suedo (NGB)	-	Far weaker than Dorian (At least 9-A)	His attacks still had light effects on Dorian when he managed to hit him, likely not that far from Katsumi's
Kosho (GB)	-	Comparable to beginning Baki (9-A)	-
Kosho (NGB)	-	Stronger than Doyle (9-A)	-
Toba	-	Comparable to beginning Baki (9-A)	-
Kureha (Tournament)	-	Stronger than GB Kosho (9-A)	-
Yasha JR	-	One-shot GB Kato (9-B), far weaker than Tournament Katsumi (At least 9-A)	Did overall as good against Katsumi than Doyle against Retsu, who is slightly stronger than Katsumi, if Doyle is comparable to spec, spec is clearly high enough in 9-A for Yasha jr to be 9-A too
Andreas Reagan	-	Far weaker than Max Tournament Baki (At least 9-A)	-
Roland Istaz	-	Weaker than Katsumi (At least 9-A)	-
Kengo Misaki	-	Get one-shot by Tournament Jack (At least 9-A, likely higher)	-
Igari	-	Comparable to Toba (9-A)	-
Spec	-	Scale to his statue-breaking feat (9-A)	-
Ryuji Tokura	-	Far weaker than NGB Hanayama (At least 9-A)	Did worse than spec against NGB Hanayama, shouldn't have his tier
Baki (Underground arena)	higher with Goutaijutsu	Far weaker than his tournament self (At least 9-A)	Formerly, Baki scaled to Kosho who could hurt Doyle, who was much weaker than Katsumi, who scaled to Tournament Baki, it's easier to just make him downscale from his tournament self
Motobe (GB to NGB)	higher with equipment	Far weaker than Kinryuuzan (At least 9-A), likely comparable to beginning Baki (9-A)	I consider Motobe being likely comparable to beginning Baki due to teaching him jujutsu
Doyle	higher with equipment	Base is far weaker than Katsumi (At least 9-A), equipment one-shot NGB Kosho (9-A)	-

Possibly 9-A

Han Kaioh	-	Get almost one-shot by Ali Jr (At least 9-A, likely higher)	Should be a strong Kaioh since he has been personally chosen by Kaku
Shunsei Kaku	-	Comparable to Han Kaioh (Possibly 9-A)	-

At least 9-B+, likely higher

Baki (sick)	-	Get casually one-shot by Retsu (At least 9-A)	Baki never had a key for his sickness because it was not relevant, but Yoo Cho and Ri Kaioh depend on him now, there should be a mention to it.
Kureha (Underground Arena)	-	Weaker than beginning Baki (9-A)	-
Sergei Taktarov	-	Get one-shot by Tournament Retsu (At least 9-A)	-
Bunnoshin Inagi	-	Get one-shot by Tournament Hanayama (At least 9-A)	-
Ri Kaioh	-	Comparable to sick Baki (at least 9-B, likely higher)	Strong for a weak kaioh
Ali (Old)	-	Likely get one-shot by Ali jr (At least 9-A, likely higher)	-
Kato (NGB)		Far weaker than Dorian (At least 9-A)	Did worse against Dorian than Suedo

At least 9-B+

Suedo (GB)	-	Far weaker than beginning Baki (9-A)	-
Shibukawa (physically)	Many of his techniques ignore durability	Far weaker than GB Kosho (9-A)	9-A put him above many many characters at 9-B that are obviously physically stronger than him, such as Suedo or the Yasha Ape and his 9-A feats are due to his techniques ignoring durability. It should be noted that his durability varies a lot depending on his opponent.
Yanagi	-	Comparable to Shibukawa (At least 9-B+)	-
Chin Kaioh	-	Far weaker than Jyaku (At least 9-A)	-

Likely at least 9-B+

Jo Kaioh

-

Likely comparable to others weak kaioh, such as Chin Kaioh (At least 9-B+)

-

9-B+

Junichi Hanada	-	Get one-shot by Toba (9-A)	-
Kato (GB)	-	Comparable to Junichi Hanada (9-B+)	-
Shumei Kano	-	Get one-shot by beginning Baki (9-A)	I consider a one-shot despite Kano being more likely "way weaker" than "one-shottable" because he did worse than Suedo against a weaker Baki than the one Suedo fought

Likely 9-B+

Yoo Cho

-

Likely far weaker than Sick Baki (At least 9-B+, likely higher)

-

Possibly at least 9-B, possibly far higher

Kaku (Past)

-

-

Possibly far higher is due to kaku using his young self as a comparaison to Yujiro

At least 9-B, possibly 9-A

Baki (13 Years old post-gaia)	-	Comparable to gaia (At least 9-B, possibly 9-A)	-
Gaia (GB)	-	Scale to possibly having destroyed tanks	-

9-B

Baki (13 Years old post-training)	-	Comparable to Yasha and Hanayama (9-B)	-
Hanayama (15 years Old)	-	Scale to his wall-breaking feat (9-B)	-
Yuri	higher post Yasha's arc	Base is stronger than 13 y o beginning Baki (At least 9-C+), post Yasha's arc is far weaker than 15 y o Hanayama (9-B)	-
Ando	with equipment	Scale to his trunk cutting feat (9-B)	-
Yasha	-	Far stronger than Ando (9-B)	-
Chiba brothers	-	Weaker than post-ando Baki (9-B)	-
Kuraishi	-	Weaker than post-ando Baki (9-B)	-
Sanada	-	Weaker than post-ando Baki (9-B)	-
Iron Michael	-	Far stronger than Shiba (At least 9-C+)	-
The mouth	with teamwork	Comparable to Iron Michael (9-B)	-

Likely 9-B

Sam Pierre Atlas

-

Likely far stronger than Yuri (9-B)

Yuri is low in the 9-B tier and the 9-B tier is big, it shouldn't be enough for Sam Pierre Atlas to get a at least 9-B.

Unknown, likely 9-B

Gaia (Nomura)	-	Likely weaker than post-ando Baki (9-B)	-
Sukune I	-	Likely comparable to Sam Pierre Atlas (9-B)	-
Taima no Kehaya	-	Comparable to Sukune 1 (Likely 9-B)	-

At least 9-C+

Baki (13 Years old base)	-	Base is far weaker than Ando (9-B) and far stronger than street weapons	-
Kohei Hatanaka	-	Comparable to Shiba (At least 9-C+)	-
Shiba (Tournament)	-	Seems overall similar to 13 years old baki when he fought entire gangs by himself (At least 9-C+)	-

9-C+

Moko Ri

-

Get one-shot by Iron Michael (9-B)

-

10-A

Morio Sonoda

-

-

Morio was never noted to be stronger than Yuri.

10-C

Kaku (Physically)

-

Old man

-

 

[CuddleFox]

I separated 9-B and 9-B+ because we tend to forget how dummy thicc 9-B is.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

How dare you forget about the real Musashi?!

Not a bad list, though I feel like it's still fine to place Yuichiro on the same level as Yujiro, if only based on Yujiro's reaction when his ghost showed up. Depending on the translation, you might also get the quotes of him being stronger. The Doppo he fought was also more "on his prime" than the one Yujiro fought.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I congratulate you on the effort done on this, this is great!

I still think Yuichiro should be roughly Yujiro tier as this depends very much on translation and Yujiro reacted very seriously to his presence (although that might be justifiable as he is, well, his father), but this list is excellent.

 

[Amlad22]

Will give my full thoughts on this as soon as I can. Looks very good from a glance though.

 

[CuddleFox]

Thank you ^^
Could you link me the pages of him being stronger and tell me who translated it? I know someone who can talk japanese, it could be useful.
If it's just by Yujiro's reaction, it's clearly not enough. He's seeing and talking to the ghost of his dead dad, we never saw that in the serie before, and in Spinyback translation, who are the most accurate I know, it's not mentionned he is stronger.

 

[Amlad22]

Okay so first off good job on making such a well organized table for this CRT. It’s very good.


So the main thing I personally disagree with here is the up scaling of many characters. If SOO Baki is 8-B+, there’s no reason for MANY characters to scale above him or for base Yujiro to be anything above At least 8-A. This is the same Baki that beat Pickle after all and took multiple blows from him. The Baki that went against Oliva would just be 8-B from downscaling. We know he got stronger from the start of SOO to the earthquake feat. Yujiro’s demon back should be higher ofc but I don’t see why his base form would need the likely higher attached to it.



For my character specific disagreements:



Honoo’s suplex still did zero damage to Baki. He should just be 8-B+ if you ask me with the other weaker rikishi. He was shown as being the fastest rikishi and strong for his size, but not anywhere near the likes of Kyogei or Shishimaru.



Katsumi’s hitless blow should be moved down to 8-A for being below base Pickle’s full strength (At least 8-A with my earlier point).



Like I said above everyone in At least 8-B+ should just be 8-B+ with Baki. I don’t see how any of them scale an entire level above someone who could beat Pickle.



As for the At least 8-B+ likely higher group, I’m very iffy on Retsu and unarmed Musashi being in the same tier as someone like Hana who can kill them in only a few hits. I personally think it makes more sense for them to be the type of characters in At least 8-B+. The same thing can be said for Katsumi, who was well below Shishimaru (literally got flung around like a rag doll and needed his superior speed and skill to win)



I’ve always been a firm believer that Oliva is far above Jack even in SOO. Baki confidently said the only people he knew who could match Pickle’s strength were Yujiro, Oliva and Hana. In all honestly, Jack was KO’d by blows that Baki took (8-B+) the most he should get is one tier higher or At least 8-B+. His Dou key along with Motobe would change accordingly to At least 8-B+ likely higher.



Prime Doppo should be below Oliva at the very least. His strikes did no real damage to Yujiro unlike Oliva who Yujiro admitted could hurt him with an unguarded strike. The reason he did so well against Yujiro was due to his speed and skill, not power. Similar to Katsumi vs Shishimaru.



Once you get below the 8-B area I pretty much agree with everything. Just a few things to point out.



Zulu, Jyaku and Yoh have no reason being in At least 9-A. Zulu got thrashed by Baki the moment he got serious and became too scared to fight. Jyaku had impressive durability but his power was nowhere near Retsu’s own. He was more focused on using ways to ignore durability like pressure points and joint locks. Also Yoh was unable to deal any lasting to damage to a literal child version of Dorian who wasn’t guarding or countering.



Lastly, Iron Michael and Shiba should defiantly be higher. There’s no way they were the weakest maximum tournament fighters especially with how much hype Iron Mike got. Even in the Yujiro fight, Mike did the best against The Ogre.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I agree with Amlad's points.

I'd like to mention that, while on a VS-sense I agree with the ratings, it is hella weird seeing Joe Crasier being rated above Prime Ali and Ali Jr.

 

[CuddleFox]

I'd like to mention that, while on a VS-sense I agree with the ratings, it is hella weird seeing Joe Crasier being rated above Prime Ali and Ali Jr.

We can also put Ali prime in 8-B instead, we know that he was much stronger than Igari without knowing how strong Igari himself was in his prime.

Sorry for the very slow answer, I'm revising my tier list to propose a solution that integrates Amlad's points without creating inconsistencies. It takes time ^^

 

[CuddleFox]

So the main thing I personally disagree with here is the up scaling of many characters. If SOO Baki is 8-B+, there’s no reason for MANY characters to scale above him or for base Yujiro to be anything above At least 8-A. This is the same Baki that beat Pickle after all and took multiple blows from him. The Baki that went against Oliva would just be 8-B from downscaling. We know he got stronger from the start of SOO to the earthquake feat. Yujiro’s demon back should be higher ofc but I don’t see why his base form would need the likely higher attached to it.

Likely higher is not to be seen as an upscale of the current tier, I threw the old tiering in the trash to make mine from scratch.
You are right. Baki got stronger after his training to fight Pickle and it was never mentioned on his profile. Before training, a casu Pickle attack had more effect than all of Oliva's attacks but he parried several during his fight against him in chapter 171 and even managed to parry a transformed Pickle attack in chapter 173 while I recall that no frontal attack of Baki's had any effect on casu Pickle at the beginning of the fight. It doesn't make sense.
And while rereading the fight I saw a detail that no one has ever mentioned here, Baki was on endorphins during the whole fight. He even showed right after activating them that Pickle's jump didn't do anything to him anymore, it's after activating them the rest of the fight that he tanks Pickle's attacks and his transformed punch. And it's BEFORE the endorphins that Pickle laughs at him for his attacks not doing anything to him.
Lol. We've been missing that.

Yujiro and the god tiers are likely higher because I needed to draw a clear line with Sukune, because the last chapters made it clear that he's not at the level of Yujiro and Baki and because at least and likely higher basically mean the same thing. So here is the solution I propose to keep them in at least 8-A:
Baki before Pickle is at most 8-B+, Oliva is At least 8-B+, Sukune is 8-A and Yujiro and co At least 8-A. I will put a new tier list at the end of this comment to make it clearer. Overall nothing changes, except that Baki has a new key that downscales slightly from his 8-B+ key and the whole tier 8 cast upscales from this new key rather than the 8-B+.

Honoo’s suplex still did zero damage to Baki. He should just be 8-B+ if you ask me with the other weaker rikishi. He was shown as being the fastest rikishi and strong for his size, but not anywhere near the likes of Kyogei or Shishimaru.

Honoo is already 8-B+ at base, he stunned Baki with his suplex and it was the only attack that had any effect, there should be a difference in his tier. Even if Baki recovered quickly. If we don't give him Baki's tier, we should indicate it on his profile with a higher.
And I also suggest that Honoo should only be Likely 8-B+, because we can assume that he is on the same level as the other rikishis, but unlike all the others he faced an opponent who held back and would put him above Reiho if he just downscaled.

Katsumi’s hitless blow should be moved down to 8-A for being below base Pickle’s full strength (At least 8-A with my earlier point).

I agree with the downscale. But I just mention that the hitless blow should be rated far stronger than casual pickle rather than weaker than serious pickle. Even though it basically means the same thing and the tier is the same.

Like I said above everyone in At least 8-B+ should just be 8-B+ with Baki. I don’t see how any of them scale an entire level above someone who could beat Pickle.

We tier the raw strength of the characters, not who can defeat whom. And the ratio of 8-B+ to 8-A is x2, while 9-A to 8-C is x50, scaling "an entire level above" does not mean the same thing.
Retsu and Katsumi did light damage to casu Pickle that Baki was not able to do at the beginning of his fight with him, and again, Baki is the only opponent Pickle made fun of because he was weak and also the only opponent he could almost one-shot with a casual attack. Even Retsu needed a serious attack from Pickle to be defeated.

As for the At least 8-B+ likely higher group, I’m very iffy on Retsu and unarmed Musashi being in the same tier as someone like Hana who can kill them in only a few hits. I personally think it makes more sense for them to be the type of characters in At least 8-B+. The same thing can be said for Katsumi, who was well below Shishimaru (literally got flung around like a rag doll and needed his superior speed and skill to win)

If Musashi almost died against Hana, then Hana is Yujiro's tier.
Musashi was fine after fighting Hana, I don't understand why people think he almost died. Musashi clearly has an adaptive dura and has been actively looking to get ****** up in every fight since the beginning of the arc.

Katsumi's attacks had an effect on Shishimaru, Shishimaru's attacks had an effect on Katsumi, why shouldn't they be in the same tier?
If anything, I propose a likely higher during short bursts for Shishimaru, it's during the 10 seconds chapter that he easily defeats Katsumi, and he's the only one who used his short burst to become stronger (Taketsurugi and Shachihoko just used it to act immediately after a hit)

I’ve always been a firm believer that Oliva is far above Jack even in SOO. Baki confidently said the only people he knew who could match Pickle’s strength were Yujiro, Oliva and Hana. In all honestly, Jack was KO’d by blows that Baki took (8-B+) the most he should get is one tier higher or At least 8-B+. His Dou key along with Motobe would change accordingly to At least 8-B+ likely higher.

Baki didn't say that Oliva, Yujiro and Hana matched Pickle's strength, he just said that he would like to see Pickle face them. (Otherwise it means that hana and oliva scale to Yujiro?)
Jack was knocked out by the attacks of a Pickle angry about having his ear ripped off, not a 8-B+ish casu Pickle (with two pages of explanation that this is the first time Pickle hates someone), that's why he got one-shot and the whole beginning of the fight is dedicated to Jack beating casu Pickle and showing that he can counter all the attacks that allowed Pickle to defeat his previous opponents, there are even two pages to explain that it only took one attack from Jack to convince Pickle to go all out, while Pickle's casu attacks were more efficient on Baki than Oliva's. For me, Jack is totally comparable to Oliva at that moment, it seems hard to argue otherwise.
The keys of dou motobe and jack downscale from Musashi, not upscale from Jack SOO. It's just a happy coincidence that it brings an upscale of Jack SOO. ^^

Prime Doppo should be below Oliva at the very least. His strikes did no real damage to Yujiro unlike Oliva who Yujiro admitted could hurt him with an unguarded strike. The reason he did so well against Yujiro was due to his speed and skill, not power. Similar to Katsumi vs Shishimaru.

I don't remember Yujiro saying that Oliva would hurt him with a surprise attack. I'd be curious if you could link me to a source. But if I had to guess I'd say it's probably from the Death Row OVA, which I haven't seen.
I reread the fight of Doppo and Yujiro and noted all the blows between the two characters and the effects they had in the end.
Overall all of Yujiro's attacks had some effect on Doppo, and only one of Doppo's attacks had a little effect on Yujiro.
For me they are still comparable. Doppo parried Yujiro's attacks with the Sangan without anything showing that Yujiro was expecting it while he mocked him the whole fight and made his wrists bleed in the process (so he hit him with an unguarded strike, Yujiro got cut in the middle of an attack and didn't expected it), later with a rush of attacks Doppo made Yujiro's nose bleed too. Similar damage to Hanayama.
If it's really a problem to tier it to Oliva, I suggest to put the sangan at Hanayama's level and downscale base Doppo slightly from his sangan self, since it took him a whole attack rush to get the same result as Hanayama.
I know it sounds far-fetched, but again, it takes almost nothing to go from 8-B+ to 8-A.

Zulu, Jyaku and Yoh have no reason being in At least 9-A. Zulu got thrashed by Baki the moment he got serious and became too scared to fight. Jyaku had impressive durability but his power was nowhere near Retsu’s own. He was more focused on using ways to ignore durability like pressure points and joint locks. Also Yoh was unable to deal any lasting to damage to a literal child version of Dorian who wasn’t guarding or countering.

Zulu knocked Baki out in a few moves, that's more effect than the attacks Igari had before Baki got serious with him too. If he doesn't have At least 9-A, he still deserves much more than at least 9-B. 9-A then.
Ok for Jyaku and Yoh, 9-A flat and at least 9-A dura for jyaku.

Lastly, Iron Michael and Shiba should defiantly be higher. There’s no way they were the weakest maximum tournament fighters especially with how much hype Iron Mike got. Even in the Yujiro fight, Mike did the best against The Ogre.

We should not use their fight with Yujiro to tier the strength of the participants of the maximum tournament because in the end, Yujiro one-shots them all. Mike did better against Yujiro because Yujiro let him do it and took more time to humiliate him than the others.
Shiba compares Iron Mike to the impact of a motorcycle, I made a calc there which has not been accepted yet but it shows that even at highway speed it does not go beyond 9-B.
If you want to tier Mike to higher than this feat, I suggest in this case scaling him to At least 9-A, to put him below prime Ali, but still above old Ali, because it is mentioned in the introduction of Ali that he was able to defeat the greatest in the boxing world but is unable to do so today. And put Shiba 9-A with At least 9-A dura. But that seems less coherent to me since he's one of the only participants who has a clear and easy to calc feat to support.
Oh, and put old Ali higher in short bursts, because he tells the reporter that for a short time he can become as good as before. (even if it's not verifiable because he doesn't face anyone)
And I would also take the opportunity to put Shiba At least 9-A, likely far higher, there is no reason why Motobe should have this treatment thanks to Jack and Musashi and not him thanks to Baki.

And I'm going to put Yuichiro back on the same level as Yujiro, since you all think he's comparable. It will be mentionned in Doppo's profile that the Doppo who broke Yuichiro's jaw was more in his prime that the one Yujiro fought.


So here's the new tier list, tell me your opinion on it:

At least 8-A, likely higher

• T-Rex (> Pickle serious)

At least 8-A

• Baki (VS Yujiro to current) (= Yujiro), higher with Demon Back
• Yuichiro (= Yujiro), higher with Demon Back
• Yujiro (> Sukune), higher with Demon Back
• Kaku (with Shaori) (= Yujiro)
• Pickle (serious) (= Yujiro), higher with transformation
• Musashi (with his katanas) (= Yujiro), higher at full power

Likely at least 8-A

• Deinonychus (= Pickle)

8-A

• Katsumi (SOO with Hitless Blow) (>> Casu Pickle)
• Katsumi (Dou II with Hitless Blow) (= Previous Hitless Blow)
• Sukune II (>> Oliva)

Up to 8-A

• Baki (Pickle's fight to until Yujiro with endorphins) (< Pickle serious)

At least 8-B+, likely higher

• Jack (Dou) (= Equiped motobe)
• Motobe (dou with equipment) (<< Katana Musashi)
• Hanayama (Dou II) (>> Shachihoko)

At least 8-B+

• Jack (SOO) (<<< Pickle serious)
• Shibukawa (Aiki) (= Oliva)
• Oliva (>> Baki post recovery until Pickle's fight)
• Baki (Post recovery until Pickle's fight with demon back) (= Oliva)
• Kyogei (= Shibukawa aiki)
• Reiho (<< Sukune)
• Pickle (Casual) (>> Baki post recovery to prison arc)
• Hanayama (SOO to Dou) (= Pickle casu)
• Retsu (Dou) (<<< Katana Musashi)
• Musashi (unnarmed) (= Retsu dou)
• Shishimaru (= Kyogei), likely higher in short bursts
• Katsumi (Dou II) (= Shishimaru)
• Doppo (Prime with sangan) (= Hanayama)

8-B+

• Doppo (prime) (< Sangan Doppo)
• Doppo (Dou) (= Taketsurugi)
• Taketsurugi (< Shishimaru; < Kyogei; < Reiho)
• Katsumi (SOO) (< Pickle casu)
• Retsu (SOO) (= Katsumi SOO)
• Crasier (= Retsu SOO)
• Baki (Pickle's fight to until Yujiro) (Point 0 (his earthquake feat)), higher with Demon Back
• Shachihoko (= Taketsurugi & Honoo)

Likely 8-B+

• Honoo (usually) (= Taketsurugi), higher with his suplex attack

At most 8-B+

• Baki (Post-recovery until Pickle's fight) (< Baki (Pickle's fight to until Yujiro))
• Shobun (<< Oliva)
• Guevara (<< Oliva)

At least 8-B

• Iwao Muneuchi (<< Prime doppo)

At least 9-A, likely far higher

• Motobe (Dou physically)
• Shiba (SOO)

At least 9-A, likely higher

• Jack (Tournament to NGB) (= Baki post retsu), higher with maxing, higher post-bone expension
• Doppo (post-Yujiro) (>> Dorian)
• Filth (= Doppo post yujiro)
• Ali jr (= Doppo post yujiro)
• Baki (Tournament post Retsu) (>> Retsu tournament), higher post-night with Kozue, higher with Demon Back

Likely at least 9-A, likely higher

• Ali (Prime) (= Ali Jr)

At least 9-A

• Gaia (NGB to dou) (= Sikorsky)
• Yu Amanai (< Doppo post yujiro)
• Sikorsky (< Baki post retsu)
• Gallen (< Jack tournament)
• Iron Michael (>> Ali old)
• The mouth (= Iron Michael)with teamwork
• Baki (Tournament until Retsu) (= Retsu tournament)
• Hanayama (Tournament to NGB) (> Spec)
• Katsumi (Tournament to NGB) (= Hanayama tournament), higher with Mach Punch
• Retsu (Tournament to NGB) (= Katsumi tournament)
• Kinryuuzan (>> Igari)
• Dorian (= Retsu tournament), higher with equipment

Unknown, likely at least 9-A

• Ryu Kaioh (= Retsu tournament)

9-A

• Kureha (Tournament) (> Kosho GB)
• Spec (Point 0 (his statue breaking feat))
• Shiba (Tournament) (<< Iron Michael)
• Kohei Hatanaka (= Shiba tournament)
• Zulu (<< Baki tournament)
• Jyaku (<< Retsu tournament)
• Yoh Kaioh (<< Dorian)
• Suedo (NGB) (<< Dorian)
• Kosho (GB) (= Baki beginning)
• Kosho (NGB) (= Doyle)
• Toba (= Baki beginning)
• Yasha JR (>>> Kato GB; << Katsumi tournament)
• Andreas Reagan (<< Baki tournament)
• Roland Istaz (<< Katsumi)
• Igari (= Toba)
• Ryuji Tokura (<< Hanayama tournament)
• Baki (Underground arena) (<< Baki tournament), higher with Goutaijutsu
• Motobe (GB to NGB) (<< Kinryuuzan), higher with equipment
• Doyle (<< Katsumi tournament), higher with equipment
• Kato (NGB) (<< Dorian)

Likely 9-A

• Ali (Old) (<<< Ali jr), higher in short bursts
• Han Kaioh (<<< Ali jr)
• Shunsei Kaku (= Han kaioh)
• Kengo Misaki (<<< Jack tournament)

At least 9-B+, likely higher

• Kureha (Underground Arena) (< Baki beginning)
• Sergei Taktarov (<<< Retsu tournament)
• Bunnoshin Inagi (<<< Hanayama tournament)

Likely at least 9-B+, likely higher

• Baki (sick) (<<< Retsu tournament)
• Ri Kaioh (= Baki sick)
• Moko Ri (<<< Iron Michael)

At least 9-B+

• Suedo (GB) (<< Baki beginning)
• Shibukawa (physically) (<< Kosho GB), many of his techniques ignore durability
• Yanagi (= Shibukawa)
• Chin Kaioh (<< Jyaku)

Likely at least 9-B+

• Jo Kaioh (= Chin Kaioh)

9-B+

• Junichi Hanada (<<< Toba)
• Kato (GB) (= Hanada)
• Shumei Kano (<<< Baki beginning)

Likely 9-B+

• Yoo Cho (<< Baki sick)

Possibly at least 9-B, possibly far higher

• Kaku (Past)

At least 9-B, possibly 9-A

• Baki (13 Years old post-gaia) (>> Hanayama 15 y o)
• Gaia (GB) (= Baki post gaia)

9-B

• Baki (13 Years old post-training) (= Hanayama 15 y o)
• Hanayama (15 years Old) (= Yasha)
• Yasha (>> Ando)
• Chiba brothers (< Baki post ando)
• Kuraishi (< Baki post ando)
• Sanada (< Baki post ando)
• Yuri (<< Hanayama 15 y o), higher post Yasha's arc
• Ando (point 0 (his trunk cutting feat)) with equipment

Likely 9-B

• Sam Pierre Atlas (>> Yuri)

Unknown, likely 9-B

• Sukune I (= Sam Pierre Atlas)
• Taima no Kehaya (= Sukune I)
• Gaia (Nomura) (< Baki post ando)

At least 9-C+

• Baki (13 Years old base) (<< Ando)

10-A

• Morio Sonoda

10-C

• Kaku (Physically)

 

[Amlad22]

@CuddleFox

I’ll need a bit to respond just so you know. I’m quite busy these days. I’d say try to get some opinions on both of our comments from some moderators and admins during this time. With a verse so big and an author who has never cared too much on being consistent it’s gonna be damn near impossible to get a 100% perfect list, but we’ll do our best to get close to that.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Kaku is a bit weird when old. It's his entire character concept to be incredibly weak, and he is shown to have difficulty holding chopsticks, but I do recall that he managed to hammer a nail through the hands of three or four men in a single strike, and it didn't seem he was using Xiao-Lee in that scene, and he also managed to tank being hit against a wall with enough force to crack it rather violently when Yujiro was smacking him against it, despite Retsu stating that Xiao-Lee wasn't working in that situation.

 

[CuddleFox]

It's also Shibukawa's character to be incredibly weak, yet he tanked a blow from Kyogei.
I guess "strong weak" characters just get "the dramatic last HP" when they get hit.

 

[Anttron224]

I agree with the new list more than the first one but waiting for more input is desirable

 

[CuddleFox]

@Sir_Ovens

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah I'm ok with this.

 

[Amlad22]

Since everyone agrees I’d say just go with it. Although I will make points again for a few things.

I still disagree with many characters being on Base Baki’s level. But if that’s what is commonly agreed upon then we can let that be for now.

There’s zero reason for Jack or Motobe to downscale from Musashi. He’s massively above them both. Motobe only lasted as long as Musashi felt like letting him last. This is a big point that I can’t stress enough. Also, I still struggle to see how you think Jack is on Oliva’s level. I look at it very simply, Jack got KO’d by the exact same strikes that Base Baki took. Base Baki at this point was weaker than Oliva so the scaling should be Oliva > Base Baki >= SOO Jack.

Also we really shouldn’t be taking the old manga into account when scaling characters. I’ve made this point many times but back then Yujiro was not meant to be the unstoppable monster he is today. The anime quite literally changed or flat out removed scenes from the manga to better fit the new Yujiro Itagaki started crafting by the time of the maximum tournament. Doppo is still powerful even going off of the anime and I think At least 8-B+ is fine (personally I don’t think he needs the , but the whole thing of him making Yujiro bleed shouldn’t be taken seriously. If we go off of the manga, Kureha would be 8-A and Motobe would be At least 8-A. There’s also no reason to make a difference in sangan stats. It’s purely a reaction speed boosting ability. Doppo’s attacks did the same damage before and after, they just started landing more.

Lastly for Iron Mike and Shiba. I saw your Calc but honestly there’s no reason to use it. Iron Mike is stated multiple times to be one of the maximum tournaments heaviest hitters. There’s no way he’s low end 9-B. The easiest way to scale him would just be 9-A via scaling to the stronger maximum tournament fighters. i don’t think Ali needs to be touched here. This point should defiantly be run by others since there’s quite a few ways to scale Mike and Shiba.

So big points to discuss are Jack and Motobe’s ratings, along with Mike and Shiba’s.

 

[Anttron224]

Amlad makes good points about the Motobe and Jack scaling, also yeah why does Doppo get an AP upgrade for sangan?

 

[Anttron224]

Pretty sure all sangan did was allow him to look in every direction like a chameleon which allowed him to keep up with Yujiro's strikes

 

[CuddleFox]

Jack was ko'd by serious blows from Pickle who rivals Yujiro and there were several pages just to explain that Pickle was angry, that's all there is to consider, and Baki doesn't even enter the question.
Baki took some serious hits too but only after he got on endorphins and showed that the 20 meter fall didn't do anything to him right after activating his endorphins.
Ok to remove the sangan stat, but not because you shouldn't take the old manga in consideration, just because I agree that if you consider a bleed as enough, it would change too much things.
Anyway if Jack and motobe don't downscale from musashi, they both scale at least one level above jack SOO, which puts them on the same level.
I don't agree about not taking the old manga seriously, these are things that happened in the storyline diegesis. From the point of view of the characters, Yujiro just changed his character gradually.
Ok to leave ali prime at least 9-A, likely higher. Since Ali is old when Crasier is young, I guess their iconic real life rivalry didn't happen in Baki.
I'm more in favor of putting Mike in At least 9-A and Shiba in 9-A with At least 9-A dura. That puts Mike between Ali old and Ali prime.

I put a new key into my table for hana from baki dou II which puts him one step above and put shachihoko at the level of taketsurugi and honoo because I thought it was illogical that shachihoko was the weakest.

So it's good? Can we apply the changes for good? ^^

 

[Amlad22]

The Baki that made the 8-B+ earthquake feat is the same Baki that faced Pickle and forced him to use his transformation. I’m realizing now that you separated the Baki that did the earthquake feat with the Baki that faced Pickle even though they should be the same. That’s the biggest issue and I think it’s why we’re having this disagreement. Endorphins increase stamina and make Baki more aggressive, that’s it. Baki being a hanma and growing through tough fights is what actually increases his AP and durability. It’s not like he got stronger during his fight with Pickle and then proceeded to get weaker when he did the earthquake feat.

That needs to be settled first before we can finialize the scaling of characters like Jack and Retsu.

I’d say Anttron, Venom and Ovens input is needed here for sure. This is important to the scaling so it needs multiple input. I believe Ant already agrees with me here.