The Elder Scrolls: Downgrading the Et'ada to 2-B?

[Hat_mchat]

I was just wondering, what is the proof for the daedric princes controlling an infinite number of universes? I've seen references to around 37,000 universes, but never infinite.

Antvasima's edit:

I will highlight this thread for staff input regarding whether or not we should downgrade the Aedra and Daedra to 2-B.

 

[Mora8]

They are scaled off Akatosh, I think. The highest Daedra feat is Sanguine creating 100,000 planes, which is 2-B.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Just because time is present everywhere in oblivion akatosh can one-shot infinite universes?

 

[Mora8]

Scaling off Akatosh is inaccurate and time is not present throughout all of Oblivion. It is present in realms which the Daedric princes will time to be. We do not know whether it applies to enough planes to qualify for 2-A. But no one has changed this.

In fact, some direct counter-evidence:

"As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!"

Speaking of which, this should qualify all et'Ada for acausality when they are not controlling their aspects? We know from Vivec and several in-game instances that when an et'Ada's aspect (physical form) is destroyed, they return to a timeless state in which they can reform, as described:

"It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it."

"It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."

 

[Hat_mchat]

Even if it did apply to all planes (contrary to evidence) i don't see how that is enough for 2-A which requires the destruction of infinite universes. Just because time exists there doesn't automatically mean akatosh can destroy it all. I think daedric princes should be reduced to tier 2-B. Do you know of any admins that deal with TES stuff?

 

[Mora8]

Akatosh is a difficult case, I would have thought that they are logically placed at 2-B still without scaling. But that doesn't matter too much yet in my opinion. More importantly, I think we need to properly work out for good how to handle the Elder Scrolls profiles here before doing any significant upgrades or downgrades. We also need to work out what level of canon we go up to with Michael Kirkbride's lore, since picking canon it is like pulling a tree from the ground. It's all merged.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Regardless, there is a lack of evidence for 2-A so first things first, either someone presents evidence or a downgrade is in order. If you wish to discuss canonicity we should make a separate thread as that is a different topic altogether. Personally i think Kirkbride should be considered and characters given "Unknown Possibly tier x" though i imagine it would require a lot of input for such a reform. Even so nothing in kirkbride lore suggests 2-A akatosh or 2-A daedric princes (apart from c0da which is silly as it would mean high tier 1-A for all characters).

 

[Mora8]

The mods apparently lack people who are knowledgable about ES enough to make upgrades or downgrades, so I wouldn't assume that they would have the time to make this large scale downgrade unless they are bias and wish to ignore large upgrades which have been put forth over the last couple of days here.

But yes I agree, et'Ada should be 2-B at most based on the evidence we have on the interpretation that they are five-dimensional beings.

And c0da 1-A? I could see that for Jubal or something though I've not read c0da much before. Do they actually have 1-A feats?

 

[Hat_mchat]

Well i say high 1-A as they can't all be tier 0. First let me clarify i mean c0da not C0DA. The concept of c0da essentially means anything is canon as it allows for boundless variation of the godhead and the amaranths. An amaranth could contain infinite c0das of infinite variations. For example imagine a c0da where yog sothoth is present on nirn say as a shopkeeper in Cyrodill who sells chocolates shaped like the TARDIS. Kirkbride has confirmed there is no limit to the possible variations. I highly recommend AGAINST implementing c0da into the wiki though as it would be a rediculous upgrade and this concept of "anything s canon" is going too far. How would we be able to implement the downgrades then? Are we allowed to change the profiles?

 

[SITHISIT]

Last I checked oblivion realms are like Klein Bottles, infinite space and time. Infinite possibilities. Just contained.

And Aetherius realms are basically the Anuic spirits' bodies. Infinite.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Each realm is infinite yes but that only constitutes one spacetime continuum i.e. 2-C. As the princes control many, they are 2-B.

 

[SITHISIT]

they are contained infinite space time realms and with infinite possibilities.

Possibilities = infinite = infinite timelines, warranting a 2-A rating

 

[Raian230]

Riiingo, do you know if any of the Daedric Princes created an infinite number of realms? I know Oblivion itself contains infinite universes but do any of the individual Princes' realms? I think so but I can't remember the source. I think there are realms besides those controlled by the Princes, but are those the only ones that contain infinite universes?

 

[SITHISIT]

Akatosh is the full embodiment of time and controls its aspects.

Time exists across everything in TES except for possibly oblivion.

This means he should likely have some control over all timelines of Mundus

 

[Hat_mchat]

Wouldn't each timeline be ruled by a different incarnation of akatosh as in different shards caused by the breaking of the dragon?

 

[SITHISIT]

The shards were Aka breaking into Alduin, Auri-El, Alkosh, Akatosh, etc.

These would be avatars at the least.

Even then, each would be divided by infinity and that is still infinity. Should still be 2-A but all weaker than the original spirit.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Understandable. This is a good case for the 2-A ratings then.

 

[Antvasima]

So the profiles should stay as they are then? Do we need to clarify anything within the pages to avoid future discussions like this?

 

[Hat_mchat]

Just mention they are comparable to akatosh who has power over infinite parallels of mundus or something like that. No need to downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Don't the profiles already mention that they are scaled from Akatosh?

 

[SITHISIT]

Some of them do. Some dont.

When I edited the ones I put in the ones that were vague I said that they were scaled from Akatosh.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I was curious about this: why do you assume they scale to akatosh? As i understand it, the 2-A akatosh is akatosh before he lost all his power in the creation as the planets are the corpses of the aedra. Akatosh was a notably powerful et'ada before creation, probably the most powerful. So why scale other et'ada to him?

 

[Antvasima]

Because a part of infinity is still infinity. Akatosh is not portrayed as infinitely stronger than the others as far as I have been told.

 

[SITHISIT]

yes. Akatosh is probably vastly stronger than other et'ada besides Triminac, Lorkhan, Jyggalag, and Talos. But not infinitely stronger. The others should be around 2-A to a certain point.

I also said that him losing his power during Dragonbreak was either Aka shattering into the divines such as Alduin, Auriel, Alkosh, and Akatosh we know right now, or his power being divided by infinity to be seperated across the infinite timelines. Which still quantifies to 2-A considering how we ranked the Demon Lords doing the exact same thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, with that settled, should we close this thread?

 

[Hat_mchat]

All is good

 

[SITHISIT]

yes.