The Boys (Comic) Revisions

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

(I realize The Boys show has one CRT and there is a one CRT per verse rule going but this is for the comic and not the show)a

This is a sort of continuation of a thread people may have missed (I am aware this link might be dead in a week or so, but here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3746944 )

I agree with the points given, but I would like to build upon this as well.

Stormfront never caused any storms, all of it is symbolic (storms and lightning are common Nazi symbolism, and as pointed out in the original thread, the page about Stormfront does not say anything about him causing those natural disasters and that's because typhoons and huge waves are common by Indonesia and to a lesser extent Africa). The page is supposed to be referring to the fact that local rural areas in those regions refusing to trade even with storms and natural disasters not persuading them otherwise, so Stormfront goes in and uses force.

As for Homelander's nuke things, Homelander explicitly cannot take a nuke and that is present in all three times it is mentioned. In fact, one of them is the Vought dude and his assistant talking about how they plan to eliminate Homelander, but a nuclear solution would have to involve all supes (or at least a lot of them). As in, a widespread number of targets are involved and they know that a nuke would kill them if they are within range. That's not even close to tanking one.

What hurts the case even more is that Black Noir, an exact clone of Homelander, got hurt pretty badly by military grade explosives and then Billy Butcher proceeded to kill him afterward.

As a final note, the last post in the thread brought up a feat regarding an inferior supe melting a tank. It is a legitimate feat, but since heat related stuff is contentious at the moment and the fact that only the first Crimson Countess demonstrated the ability to melt a tank like that and she was mowed down by gunfire and the fact that Homelander does not necessarily have a way of upscaling to this other than being the best supe or something (which is kind of a stretch) I think we can sort of safely ignore this.

There are a wealth of small building feats to use instead, and it seems Billy Butcher's profile has most of them, so that is where high tiers like comic Homelander should be put at.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

100% agree with this. It's telling when stats are bad when the scans given to justify the ratings debunk them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

HHM makes pretty solid arguments as usual.

 

[Antvasima]

@Wokistan @Ionliosite @The_Impress

Do you have any input here?

 

[The_Impress]

I agree as well

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I will wait a little for Wokistan and Ionliosite though.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah, I agree.

---

Hes adding on to a thread I originally made, what do you think I'm gonna disagree with myself

If it seems weird that the top dudes end up in the same tier as billy, keep a few things in mind.

1. Billy and the rest of The Boys are already said to be stronger and faster than most supes, this applies extra to Female
2. The Boys were pretty sure they could take out The Seven besides Homelander, Maeve, and Black Noir
3. Female herself hurts Stormfront and ends up tearing out his eye, though she's weaker. Stormfront is killed by all the rest of the boys together, plus love sausage
4. There might be higher feats for Homelander and Noir somewhere, but tier 7 is wack.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. This seems fine to be applied then.

 

[Newendigo]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Cropfist]

The interpretation was that the comic was giving Storm credit for what wasn't legitimate natural disasters, but rather with his electrical based powers such a thing can be where the blame is placed after the fact. It is not stating that Stormfront goes after natural disasters. but rather he goes to areas FOR Vought, where it is unlikely a hurricane or tidal wave would oblige THEM (I.E. Vought). So this should mean he is acting in place of a real storm.

It's not that Homelander can tank a nuke, but it's evidence that he should be close to that of a nuke, as before Black Noir a nuke was the only option. This implies that regardless of Vought's wealth or resources, nothing else they could do would stop him. The statement that a well placed nuke could take out all of them could be used against this, but Homelander is the most durable so if a nuke could kill him it stands to reason that everyone else would be susceptible.

Homelander could kill Billy just by looking at him, the mere shockwave of his heat vision sent Billy flying, and Billy stated that him trying to fight HL head-on is "like trying to break into the white house + fighting 1,000 tigers at once". There is no way Homelander is in the same tier as Billy.

Female's fight with Stormfront left her hospitalized.

The military weapons were designed with uranium to specifically target V, and scaling the supes down to military tech would fail since heat vision > anti-missile system

Why does countess dying to gunfire downgrade anything? It only means she is a glass cannon. Homelander scales from being outright stated as superior to her class, from being the strongest supe and from his Compound V being superior to hers.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

"The interpretation was that the comic was giving Storm credit for what wasn't legitimate natural disasters, but rather with his electrical based powers such a thing can be where the blame is placed after the fact."

Correct, my point is that he does not create storms or whatever the profile is trying to imply. Nothing quantifiable or worth having as a major stat justification.

"It's not that Homelander can tank a nuke, but it's evidence that he should be close to that of a nuke, as before Black Noir a nuke was the only option. This implies that regardless of Vought's wealth or resources, nothing else they could do would stop him. The statement that a well placed nuke could take out all of them could be used against this, but Homelander is the most durable so if a nuke could kill him it stands to reason that everyone else would be susceptible."

Nothing says he is close or that he can, all we have are statements saying that he cannot (and that a widespread number of Supes would not be able to survive) so at best I can see this argument as "they could be comparable," not that they should, and judging by their other feats we really do not have a reason to believe they are on a nuclear level at all.

"Homelander could kill Billy just by looking at him"

little thing about this, this is referring to heat vision. At least iirc, there is one issue that heavily implies this that isn't the showdown at D.C., but either way I'f say that's a much fairer interpretation than something like "he can literally, no BS, no strings attached, glance at Billy and kill him" in a series where Homelander is not even able to lift an airplane in midair because realistic physics still apply to him (I should say ahead of time Im not suggesting hes sub-airplane lifting level, Im saying the physics in The Boys are meant to be more realistic than homelander blinking and soloing 99% of his verse) Depending on where some feats land him or how high into small building the boys are, sure, maybe he is higher, but currently its big doubt

"Female's fight with Stormfront left her hospitalized."

not sure if this is an argument about how much better the supes are in physicality than the boys or if this is about scaling, but either way. she slapped him first and drew blood, and messed up his eye. the former is actually pretty important since the eye is kind of fragile (although also fairly underestimated).

"anti-missile system"

which is meant to intercept missiles, hence why heat vision does not hold up against them, that's the point. The comic is about warfare, tactics, dark money, and cults of personality rather than big feats of strength like herald tier superhero comics or perhaps even some urban ones.

When I mentioned the Countess, I was talking about the very last post in the previous thread, which was about a possible tank melting feat from
the first Countess. My point was to acknowledge it but put up some counterarguments for it, since it is a decent feat but probably only for her superpower. Homelander is superior to all supes yes, but my point was (since, again, this was the last point brought up in the previous thread) this scaling to an unrelated character probably shouldn't work if it is discussed as an alternative for tiering Homelander (or Queen Maeve now too i suppose)

 

[Hellbeast]

I agree

The Boys are pretty consistently 9-A other then this statement about melting tanks

 

[Antvasima]

Well, they likely did not instantly melt their entireties.

 

[Hellbeast]

Was not saying they did

Only that the statement exists

 

[The_Impress]

Even then heat revisions make using Heat feats as unscaleable to physical Attack Potency

 

[Hellbeast]

Only if there's no evidence of a universal power source in the verse tho

 

[Antvasima]

Impress is correct.

Anyway, is somebody willing to apply what has been agreed here?

 

[Cropfist]

see above

My point is that he is implied to cause destruction that is indistinguishable from natural disasters. If the hurricanes can't make them leave but Stormfront can, that's an implication.

I can not argue much more on the nuke stuff, but what I see at best is that nuke level is his "at most" tier, given that the nuclear option was the contingency they immediately jumped to.

Not only is the airplane lift series only, and HL does lift a plane, but he decapitated the next strongest supe (who is implied to survive all-out against the Boys) with one punch, so I would say he is that much stronger.

The argument is that the boys individually got wrecked against Stormfront, a hero ultimately weaker than Homelander, and needed to collectively work with help from love sausage to finally kill him, which is more proof of how big the power gap is.

But that scan is saying anti-missile is inferior to heat vision.

Why should it not work exactly? It's not the only feat above small building, as the Deep survived getting hit by the 9/11 plane head-on.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What are we making their new tiers though?

 

[Hellbeast]

Porbably 9-A

The Deep plane feat should be calced imo

 

[Qawsedf234]

My point is that he is implied to cause destruction that is indistinguishable from natural disasters. If the hurricanes can't make them leave but Stormfront can, that's an implication.

This is the full quote by Frenchie

• His story casts him as some reborn Viking, but really he is what all Nazis are: a criminal. And cheap at that. There is evidence of supe involvement in... clearances. In Africa, in Indonesia. Closer to home. Anywhere that Vought's development division sees land the locals will not sell, where neither hurricane nor tidal wave are likely to oblige them. That is Stormfront, Petit Hughie. And now...

He does not make storms and he does not scale to storms either. When Vought wants an area that will not sell to them, and that area will not likely be hit by a natural disaster to force them to leave, they will send in Stormfront to kill everyone there. and then cover it up. This is the same company that can convince people aliens, extra-dimensional beings, and magic physics are real life things. Tricking people into thinking a random event destroyed a small no name village isn't out of their ability.

Its just Stormfront destroying villages over an unknown period of time. Not making storms or tidal waves to destroy them or producing similar effects to either that would imply he scales to their output.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

My point is that he is implied to cause destruction that is indistinguishable from natural disasters. If the hurricanes can't make them leave but Stormfront can, that's an implication.

No, there isn't any sort of implied power hierarchy here.

Imagine a hypothetical where a city has a hurricane coming but most people don't care to move, but a man with a tank invades and starts killing people. The man with the tank is not city level+ for doing that. Frankly a flying small building level supersonic+ dude with electric powers would be more than enough to mess up villages or developing countries.

given that the nuclear option was the contingency they immediately jumped to.

they didn't jump to it immediately, the vought guy said it was a possibility they considered but rather had something different in mind because a nuke would be impossible to cover up (and also I don't think it helps that nukes can be lower than hiroshima level but that's almost always not the implication in fiction, but considering that the series makes it a point that corporations like Vought want to resort to mostly legal moves, which is why they want a pro-supe presidency, I doubt it would be anything as good as what the federal government has their hands on

Not only is the airplane lift series only, and HL does lift a plane, but he decapitated the next strongest supe (who is implied to survive all-out against the Boys) with one punch, so I would say he is that much stronger.

The margin of error here is anywhere from one-shotting range to literally millions of times beyond Billy, so I don't think this helps the case. At best maybe building level can be argued for the best of the best but even then I think that is speculative.

Same problem applies to the point about Stormfront, but let me remind everyone that Billy headbutted Stormfront and made him bleed, and he is not even the best of The Boys (also Stormfront may be Seven-tier). Four small building level dudes literally cannot get the upper hand on a large town body, let alone harm them when they are on their own (The Female, Billy, MM, Frenchie, and Love Sausage all harmed him alone first, often drawing blood or screwing him up quite a bit, then he got stomped to death).

But that scan is saying anti-missile is inferior to heat vision.

It’s not all about AP or strength, especially not in this universe heavily inspired by Garth Ennis' fascination with warfare and soldiers. The Legend says that an anti-missile system does not fare very well against heat vision. How an anti-missile system even works is that it intercepts missiles so that they explode harmlessly or simply miss their mark. So why would an anti-missile system not work against a continuous stream of energy far smaller than a missile and likely far harder to detect, if it is even possible to, that is not a solid object? It's like how a bulletproof vest is no good against knives, that's not its purpose.

Why should it not work exactly? It's not the only feat above small building, as the Deep survived getting hit by the 9/11 plane head-on.

A Boeing 747 at top speed is 274 m/s while its averaged max mass is 386,692.5 kg, so a KE around 3.46 tons of TNT, except a large object hitting a smaller one affects results (normal cruising speed also only gets building level, which is not much of an upgrade, and I also believe there is more to consider in vehicle collision calcs than just simple KE anyway) and this is assuming the most optimal results for the Deep's sake, who was pretty messed up by it. If this gets the verse any higher, cool, but the heat feat already has problems that have been pointed out (and also not all powers obtained through Compound V are proportionately better the better or more expensive your CV is, take for example how some kids can spit acid, Starlight can blind A-Train with light that can cook eyeballs, the second Crimson Countess claims to be capable of melting steel when threatening Billy yet is no match for him or Terror physically, and one G-Men girl killed herself by using her own powers on herself. Having more money and time poured into Homelander does not make him stronger than all of the other supes in every way, although he is physically the strongest, most tenacious, and he has his heat vision which can efficiently kill a lot of targets in one go, which is why be is the best, just not in every single way)

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

I think whether the debate (which tbh i think is a fatuous one) keeps going or not we should focus on specifically removing tier 7 stuff. How much higher the seven tiers and other high tier supes are than The Boys could be more appropriate for a different thread, because something like the Deep taking the 9/11 flight requires a more in-depth calc than what i did (and if this calc method is correct, it might not even be as good of a feat as one would think it is at all)

 

[Cropfist]

I don't want to bother arguing about tier 7 anymore at this point, I am caring more about how much stronger the 7 are now. And since the plane is based a real event, I am pretty sure there are references that can be used there.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

You're right, both planes were Boeing 767 and I missed that, but that actually makes the feat even worse since those things have shittier specs on them for the purposes of this feat. (Their max takeoff mass is half of what I got in that napkin math i did)

Either way, The Boys (individually) can harm Stormfront who is roughly Seven tier, and Billy can kill Black Noir (although while he was heavily injured) so I don't think one can argue the power gap is thousands of times larger. Still probably one-shotting range, but not enough to where its totally insurmountable.

if the plane feat can be resolved in this thread then i say go for it. If not, I say downgrade them for now then make a calc request and a new thread for it. That's my take.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

The OP seems correct here

 

[Antvasima]

@Ionliosite

What do you think?

 

[The_Impress]

I think this is enough agreement for this to be applied.

2 Admins, 1 Discussion Moderator, 4 Regular Members and a Bureaucrat, only Cropfist is making any disagreements here and he has conceded

 

[Ionliosite]

... No, don't contact me for this abomination of a series. Like, I won't touch this comic even with a 50 meters pole. Apply it if what Zark said is true.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. This can probably be applied then.

(I agree with Ionliosite's assessment btw. Garth Ennis seems to be an absolutely repugnant human being.)

 

[Cropfist]

I know it's a disgustingly edgy spank bank for Ennis' irrational and hypocritical hatred of superheroes, but it has a point against rampant obsessive consumer celebrity culture, and applies the real corrupting temptation of power to the fact that superheroes would definitely not be paragons of pure good in realistic circumstances.

 

[Antvasima]

The point about Hollywood decadence and the sheer inanity and socially destructive nature of celebrity culture are the original series' only saving graces, yes.

However, Ennis entire career as an author has been about tearing down, defiling, vilifying, distorting, and degrading any subject matter that he lays his eyes on, while drowning it in an ocean of putrid diseased excrement and hatred. He is almost purely destructive, not constructive in the slightest.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, back on topic what are we going to make the new tiers? Maybe something like 9-A or 8-C for the military statement for Homelander? We could also use Maeve's train punch to get a tier I guess.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

I applied the edits, I added a few feats from the respect thread Homelander has hyperlinked on his profile but I did not link them because they contain slurs. I also removed Homelander's loss to Yujiro since it would be a stomp now. This can be closed while the Deep and possibly other feats get reevaluated I guess. Also edit the profiles as necessary if I missed something.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.