Tenma Yato vs The Star Maker

[BleedingPeach]

The Ultimate Spirit key we are using here


Off i go, to Nirvana


I thought of "us" with calm interest and a kind of amused anguish.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

At first i think this is "new spite match by that new user" but i guess it wrong lel.

 

[Rocker1189]

Can Starmaker do anything here?

 

[BleedingPeach]

Yep. Pretty much it can create without consequences and even if Yato could stop "time", The Maker would still act naturally like Habaki did.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

The Star Maker is infinite degrees of transcendence above baseline 1-A, the strongest masada character is countless degrees of transcendence

 

[DMB_1]

Someone should render that picture of Yato with his time armor and replace the current one with it.

 

[BleedingPeach]

The thing is The Maker could create cosmoses as part of itself and those cosmoses predates the concept of dimensions and were an infinite amount of them. Those cosmoses, if one thinks about it, count as Outerverses because there were adimesional ones in its creations.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The Star Maker is infinite degrees of transcendence above baseline 1-A, the strongest masada character is countless degrees of transcendence

No, it is not.

I have been over this a million ******* times.

 

[DMUA]

Way I see it

If Star Maker is baseline or unquantifiably higher, Tenma stomps via 100 Taikyou, IE, layers of transcending Baseline

If he is actually infinite degrees of Taiykou, then Tenma gets Rolfed

If the extreme and welcome suprise of them both being 100 layers, we can continue

But as per the former 2, it's a stomp

 

[Jinsye]

Star Maker isn't baseline that's for sure

 

[BleedingPeach]

No, it is not.

I have been over this a million ******* times.

Warren, please, take it easy. We are here to debate and to have fun, I won't approach this the same way I did with the Reinhard vs The Maker.

Also... DMUA, Yato can defeat any other Hadou god *chough cough Hajun cough cough* he is pretty powerful, he could "replicate" Mercurius technique and stop "time" in a place that time is non existent. The Maker could actually create dimesionless cosmoses and cosmoses with omnipresent inhabitants... all of it in its Creative Mode, the previous state before its Ultimate Spirit.

Olaf Stapledon seems like a Philip Lovecraft who is not agoraphobic and socialized much more.

 

[DMUA]

The Maker could actually create dimensionless cosmoses and cosmoses with omnipresent inhabitants... all of it in its Creative Mode, the previous state before its Ultimate Spirit.

So it's baseline 1-A and Ultimate Spirit is stronger supposedly

... actually something just being undimensioned doesn't mean it's completely beyond the conception, that's not exactly 1-A without sufficient other backings on the ordeal

Meanwhile Yato is a hundred layers above people who treat a 1-A Artifact as a joke

 

[Jinsye]

Haven't read through it completely myself but draw your own conclusions from this

IIRC, Star Maker was considered for At Least 1-A

 

[BleedingPeach]

Actually its more like a "being" without cause and effect. Even in its Creative Mode, created infinite amounts of Outerverses and in the end created an Ultimate Cosmos, that was the objective of finite beings... and yes, those cosmoses, that were an infinite amount of them and adimensional, were finite to its "sight". Then it fused with that cosmos and became all those cosmoses existent and non existent. All of this happened within a dream inside of a dream. That's how the author describes it.

Even in its Creative Mode (the one that requires a growth) the baseline was something that eluded it.

 

[DMUA]

Even in its Creative Mode, created infinite amounts of Outerverses and in the end created a Ultimate Cosmos, that was the objective of finite beings... and yes, those cosmoses, that were an infinite amount of them and adimensional, were finite to its "sight". Then it fused with that cosmos and became all those cosmoses existent and non existent. All of this happened within a dream inside of a dream. That's how the author describes it.

... dang it this sort of confusing middle fingers to cosmology are supposed to be reserved for FC/OC

how the heck do you make multiple outerverses

If we were to say that the universe and all it's dimensions were an orange, everything beyond that Orange is the Outerverse

It's an outerverse, not a multitude

And speaking of FC/OC, a conception such as "Infinity" shouldn't mean squat to 1-As, so, again, sounds like more wretched Jargon I know too well

 

[BleedingPeach]

... dang it this sort of confusing middle fingers to cosmology are supposed to be reserved for FC/OC

how the heck do you make multiple outerverses

If we were to say that the universe and all it's dimensions were an orange, everything beyond that Orange is the Outerverse

It's an outerverse, not a multitude

And speaking of FC/OC, a conception such as "Infinity" shouldn't mean squat to 1-As, so, again, sounds like more wretched Jargon I know too well

Consider it like the Gates that Lovecraft describes within his books. From my point of view those were Outerverses that carry another Outerverse pass the door and again and again...

I also think about it like FC/OC for a moment... but then I read that part of the novel and became really amazed at that statement. It's like saying that the thing could make Outerverses like you and me change our socks.

 

[DMUA]

Creating a lack of something doesn't make any sense but

H E Y F I C T I O N

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Why is this being "debated" when in the Rein thread nobody could prove some "infinite" level of transcendence?

Also, I agree with DMB 1, that Yato pic is gewd.

 

[BleedingPeach]

The trascendence is something that it's irrelevant since The Maker could create dimensionless cosmoses and it's the source of concepts. Lovecraft verse, for example, we know its trascendental because of the Gates. We all know isn't baseline even when the Transdualism isn't listed in their profiles and yet we accept the trascendental states because those things are pretty much above the concepts. The Maker is the same in that case.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I think 1-A Masada is wank anyway

 

[First_Witch]

The trascendence is something that it's irrelevant since The Maker could create dimensionless cosmoses and it's the source of concepts. Lovecraft verse, for example, we know its trascendental because of the Gates. We all know isn't baseline even when the Transdualism isn't listed in their profiles and yet we accept the trascendental states because those things are pretty much above the concepts. The Maker is the same in that case.

No, absolutly not how it works.

Mythos is that ridicolous strong because the Gates are trancending infinite amounts of outerversal relams. The verse makes it clear that the higher Gate trancend the lower one. And we are not "just accepting it", people went absolutle lenghts to prove it.

And trancendence is the only thing that matters in Outerversal debates. Claiming that they are irrelevant shows lack for how the tier works and how big the differences between the character can get.

Comparing the Cosmoses with the Gates is wrong. The cosmoses arent even infinitly above each other and people still try to push for infinite trancendence Star Maker.

 

[BleedingPeach]

The aquarian witch, a.k.a. born in Aquarius sign or two days after me. The way I explained it is the best way I could come up with since I didn't know other way to express it. My apologies if there was something that was unexplained. I wanted to explain it with a way that others could understand.

When I said "irrelevant" I was actually saying that the trascendental state of The Maker was something like common sense. Let's say a cosmos was more incomprensible than the the other and the following cosmos was more complex and incomprehensible and so on.

Yes, Yato is trascendental since there is no binary way to defeat "him" (I say it like this because the whole male and female are irrelevant for non binarism) and The Maker is way above dimrnsionalism, conceptualism and metaphysics. That makes someone/something/whatever trascendental and that's why I was comparing to Lovecraft's works: for others to understand it better. But I think it would be like saying that Akuto Sai is incomparably greater and use an Umineko explanation image.

 

[Rocker1189]

If, Tenma Yato could hold Hajun for 8000 years I dont see why Star maker would be such a threat.

And you are making Star Maker soud like he should be in a higher tier.

 

[First_Witch]

@BleedingPeach

No, i understood you perfectly fine so dont worry. Again, Star Makers strength is NOT common sense or else anyone could have come up and explained how wrong i am. As you can see, no one could, thus i ask again. Why should i take the Hierachy of Cosmoses at infinite trancendinging, when NOTHING alludes to it.

Taikyoku is trancendence, everything of a god with a single lower Taikyoku is irrelevant to the higher one. Stated and proofed in the series.

The Layers of the Hierachy of Witches is trancendence, the Witch of a lower Layer is nothing more then a piece in a story to the higher Witch. Stated and proofed in the series.

The Gates in the Mythos is trancendence, each passing Gate is infnitly less inaccesable to the prior Gate. Stated and proofed in the series.

So i ask again. Why are the Cosmoses supposed to be even remotly compareable to the above given examples. It seems that you dont even understand how those cosmologys works. Naturally no one knows everything, heck, i apperently am not part of the common people because i dont know why the Star Maker is supposdly that high in the first place, but i ask to understand. And is it turns out, no one, not even the people who claims that he is that powerful can explain to me why i am supposed to believe that.

 

[FateAlbane]

tfw this thread

 

[First_Witch]

tfw this thread

I know I know. At least im trying tho ^^"

 

[Rocker1189]

Honestly anything above 2-A level confuses the heck out of me.

 

[FateAlbane]

I didn't mean you, FW, just the idea in general. DMUA's post in regards to the wonky cosmology also summarizes some of my thoughts, lol

 

[Warren_Valion]

I agree immensely with @First Witch, nothing alludes that the difference between outerversal cosmoses is a level of transcendence.

Hell, the description states that each cosmos grows more and more incomprehensible than the last. Implying that the totality of the hierarchy leads up into something that goes from being comprehensible to the viewer looking at the cosmos' creations to something that isn't comprehensible for that viewer. In other words, the hierarchy itself is likely a single layer of trancendece, not infinite.

It's not that each cosmos is incomprehensible to the last, but that all the cosmoses build up to a level of incomprehensibility.

Which is not anywhere close to being on Yato's level.

 

[DMUA]

DMUA's post in regards to the wonky cosmology also summarizes some of my thoughts, lol

insert senpai noticed me joke here

 

[Lanens]

Even in its Creative Mode, created infinite amounts of Outerverses and in the end created a Ultimate Cosmos, that was the objective of finite beings... and yes, those cosmoses, that were an infinite amount of them and adimensional, were finite to its "sight". Then it fused with that cosmos and became all those cosmoses existent and non existent. All of this happened within a dream inside of a dream. That's how the author describes it.

... dang it this sort of confusing middle fingers to cosmology are supposed to be reserved for FC/OC

how the heck do you make multiple outerverses

If we were to say that the universe and all it's dimensions were an orange, everything beyond that Orange is the Outerverse

It's an outerverse, not a multitude

And speaking of FC/OC, a conception such as "Infinity" shouldn't mean squat to 1-As, so, again, sounds like more wretched Jargon I know too well

"everything beyond that Orange is the Outerverse" You are talking like if the outerverse were a place, Outerverse is just a concept. Actually, I wouldn´t use the word "Outerverse", it´s better fit outerversal. Everything that is beyond dimensions is outerversal; After there are just different layers of transcendence, which is definitely not too incoherent. Some religions have similar concepts.

 

[DMUA]

Well, it's not really a location, no, but, there isn't a multitude of them. It has layers, but you can't make multiple lacks of something.

 

[Lanens]

Well, it's not really a location, no, but, there isn't a multitude of them. It has layers, but you can't make multiple lacks of something.

I don´t understand what you are talking about.

Each cosmos is all-encompassing making the beings omnipresent, they just have different levels of complexity. The term "multitude of outerverses" or something like that doesn´t make sense, outerversal is just a category, after that you just go up by scaling layers of transcendence. "but you can't make multiple lacks of something". What do you mean? Yes you can, as outerversal is a category, in that category it can be fit multiple levels of transcendence. Example: You can be outerversal without transcending duality, and certain concepts. Once you scale up in those things you go up in the layers of transcendence within outerversal category.

 

[Lanens]

As for the Topic. I dont believe in Masada "infinite" transcendence. But the star maker doesn´t have the proper statements to conclude the transcendence between each cosmos. So i have to give this to Yato.

 

[DMUA]

Layers, not a multitude of that thing. They're very two different things. You don't have several onions in an onion, you have layers in an onion. Likewise, Outerversal constructs have the ability to make people cry when they're split open

Wait that's not the comparison I was going for

Still valid

And

The point is, the Outerverse is everything outside of the universe. There are layers, but you can't make multiple copies of not something.

 

[Lanens]

"Outerverse is everything outside of the universe", that is the name for it, but what we mean in the wiki is: transcendence of concept of space, time and dimensions altogether.

You are confused, you give me the example of the onions and onions still can be divided because they are spatial, like everything dimensioned. An outerverse can´t be divided because is not spatial in any sense, so we are just talking about a formless category. A dimensionless plane doesn´t have the same rules. That´s why i talk about outerversal being a category and a concept and not a "dark void outside the universe".

There are not different Outerversal constructs, there are different constructs that fit in the category of outerversal but differ in their level of transcendence which is conditioned by other factors.

 

[DMUA]

Yes

Which is outside of the universe and it's dimensions concepts and other such things

You're really underthinking the namesake which is something I'd never thought I'd see

But it is a place that lacks dimensions and other shenangins that would seem important. If I could call it a cosmological structure with a banana on it's head I would call it that but otherwise it's a void

How do you divide a lack of dimensions concepts and other such things?

There isn't any barrier between a place that lacks something to make a barrier out of and a place that lacks something to make a barrier out of. You can't split up the Outerverse, it's one thing.

 

[Lanens]

That concept can´t be divided, read what i said. And is not a ******* location or place, for it to be a location it should have spatial properties.

What im saying is that the starmaker is not splitting the concept of "outerverse" and making different "outerverse" for it is incoherent. There are a hierarchy of different beings (but interconnected) that transcend space and time, all those beings are all encompassing and have different levels of transcendence/complexity.

 

[DMUA]

Exactly

So why did you respond to me commenting on someone commenting about making multiple outerverses

 

[Schnee_One]

If Star Maker is much stronger then Incon as he can't get past Tenmas 1A time stop