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Stealth matches (Halloween Edition) (James Earl Cash Vs John Kramer (Saw))

bump
Stillwinston said:
Probably, Jigsaw works best when he gets time to scheme iirc. Cash is cartoonishly stealthy so I'd say it could balance out.

EDIT: Why isn't Cash scaled to GTA protags? Isn't his game set in that verse?
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So what are both opponents likely to do here? How likely are each opponent's wincons?
 
When it comes to a head-on fight with either guns, melee, or fisticuffs, Cash utterly obliterates John with an H with his superior skill. Not even counting the time when he was still in the snuff film which was really just tipped in his favor because of the Director giving him so many advantages, Cash still didn't need the Director's help to survive the well-equipped Wardogs, the CCPD and their SWAT, and even the Cerberus themselves (tho tbf they were as disadvantaged as the hunters in the snuff film, but not too much)

As for Jigsaw I don't recall him creating deadly traps in the span of 30 mins, let alone set one up in an open space for combat purposes. Prior knowledge and a day of prep for Cash is too much for Jigsaw to deal with (even tho Cash has no feats of him using prep, but prior knowledge is too much)

Also I feel like Cash should be rated higher because he was able to shrug off bullets with hunter dialogue supporting this. He needs more abilities too
 
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
When it comes to a head-on fight with either guns, melee, or fisticuffs, Cash utterly obliterates John with an H with his superior skill. Not even counting the time when he was still in the snuff film which was really just tipped in his favor because of the Director giving him so many advantages, Cash still didn't need the Director's help to survive the well-equipped Wardogs, the CCPD and their SWAT, and even the Cerberus themselves (tho tbf they were as disadvantaged as the hunters in the snuff film, but not too much)

As for Jigsaw I don't recall him creating deadly traps in the span of 30 mins, let alone set one up in an open space for combat purposes. Prior knowledge and a day of prep for Cash is too much for Jigsaw to deal with (even tho Cash has no feats of him using prep, but prior knowledge is too much)

Also I feel like Cash should be rated higher because he was able to shrug off bullets with hunter dialogue supporting this. He needs more abilities too
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K. I'll edit the OP later. Though...

1: Durability is the ability to be unharmed/unchanged by damage, is the bullet part injury stamina, or durability?

2: I agree Cash's profile needs a CRT to modernize it. Would giving Kramer a day or 12 hr of prep & maybe prior knowledge even things?
 
H3110l12345I20 said:
K. I'll edit the OP later. Though...

1: Durability is the ability to be unharmed/unchanged by damage, is the bullet part injury stamina, or durability?

2: I agree Cash's profile needs a CRT to modernize it. Would giving Kramer a day or 12 hr of prep & maybe prior knowledge even things?
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1. More likely stamina
2. Yea Cash has some crazy feats for a mundane character. Jigsaw relies on prep a lot so yes
 
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
1. More likely stamina
2. Yea Cash has some crazy feats for a mundane character. Jigsaw relies on prep a lot so yes
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OP's edited! & plus (for future CRT) vvv
H3110l12345I20 said:
bump

Cash beats up multiple Smileys in a street fight, many neck snapping feats & can easily harm & overpower muscular men with weak & strong weapons, TV feat.
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Maybe we could finish this match, or CRT for him first? For me, I just want this match done with first before CRT.
 
Well I don't know too much from Jigsaw if you want this match done, only relying on my memory of the Saw movies I've watched, so let's just wait for someone knowledgeable on Jigsaw.
 
Ecstasy_Amphetamine said:
Well I don't know too much from Jigsaw if you want this match done, only relying on my memory of the Saw movies I've watched, so let's just wait for someone knowledgeable on Jigsaw.
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I did read up a bit on Kramer in his match against Walter White. Apperently, his stealth is so good he can casually stealth around people in their own homes.

Cash meanwhile, his stealth helped him on his own against Piggsy, Cerebus & Starkweather (the director). So traps & a bit of social influencing is going to make this an interesting match considering what Cash has been up against is tougher than Kramer's cup of tea.

I think I'll try to contact supporters. Give me a moment.
 
Couldn't jigsaw send his puppet as a distraction, sinse he know his target is insane, detonate It whem he is close and them atacking the weakened target?

Forgot the prior knoladge
 
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It turns out, the only supporter of the SAW that's active now is an admin. Now for the waiting game.
JustANormalLemon said:
I know, but If the puppet is is moking him I can see It beingh atacked

Unfortunetly prior knoladge makes this wincon not usable sinse cash would know that the puppet is explosive
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Question, how knowledgable are you in the SAW francise?
 
Righty-ho. I can attempt to get some insight on this one.

First and foremost, I do not know James as a character, so what would his first actions be in this situation. In fact, what is his personality like in general?

This is actually very important for Jigsaw, as one of his biggest considerations when choosing victims is knowing how they'll react once they are a part of his game. His whole strategy is understanding his victims and pushing them to their own personal limits, forcing them to choose whether to stick by their guns and die or adapt and conquer their situation, no matter the cost. As a part of a combat situation with prep time, this information would be invaluable to John.
 
Starter_Pack said:
Righty-ho. I can attempt to get some insight on this one.

First and foremost, I do not know James as a character, so what would his first actions be in this situation. In fact, what is his personality like in general?

This is actually very important for Jigsaw, as one of his biggest considerations when choosing victims is knowing how they'll react once they are a part of his game. His whole strategy is understanding his victims and pushing them to their own personal limits, forcing them to choose whether to stick by their guns and die or adapt and conquer their situation, no matter the cost. As a part of a combat situation with prep time, this information would be invaluable to John.
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From here & my prior knowledge of Cash.

Cash is a death row inmate that's mostly fearless & emotionless. Although he does care about his family & shows fear against Cerberus & the CCPD (Carcer City Police Department). He rarely talks. In gameplay, players in manhunt are encouraged to get through levels via his stealth mastery & make horrifically brutal ambush executions.
 
Interesting.

Now, obviously, John has dealt with intelligent people on multiple occasions, such as Mark Hoffman or Dr. Gordon, and he has designed traps where his victims have free range of movement and can still end up in a terrible position, like the Nerve Gas House from Saw II or the Catacombs from Saw V. And while he himself cannot handle a physical brawl for too long, he was able to take a beating from Eric Matthews and still remain conscious enough to lead the detective into his trap.

Now then, how familiar is James with standard traps such as tripwires or timed explosives? Without being able to actually capture and place him in a certain trap, John could set up traps similar to his Quadruple Shotgun Hallway Trap or Agent Perez's Test. Otherwise, he can get more creative if he has to. (In fact, he probably would.)
 
Starter_Pack said:
Interesting.

Now, obviously, John has dealt with intelligent people on multiple occasions, such as Mark Hoffman or Dr. Gordon, and he has designed traps where his victims have free range of movement and can still end up in a terrible position, like the Nerve Gas House from Saw II or the Catacombs from Saw V. And while he himself cannot handle a physical brawl for too long, he was able to take a beating from Eric Matthews and still remain conscious enough to lead the detective into his trap.

Now then, how familiar is James with standard traps such as tripwires or timed explosives? Without being able to actually capture and place him in a certain trap, John could set up traps similar to his Quadruple Shotgun Hallway Trap or Agent Perez's Test. Otherwise, he can get more creative if he has to. (In fact, he probably would.)
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Unfamiliar. Closest thing Cash has gotten into in traps per se is surviving an encounter intended by Starkweather to kill Cash in a gunfight. Best thing I found on traps on Manhunt wiki is that he survived a trap by Ramirez that involved Cash getting physically beaten by Ramirez.

Cash isn't entirely stupid tho. He knows that he's going to encounter traps. He will anticipate & likely prepare for them in his prep time.
 
The devil's in the details in this case, however. While John can basically expect what his opponent can do, the opposite is not true for James.

The fascinating thing about not just Jigsaw himself, but for the Saw franchise as a whole, is that the traps can be incredibly creative. For instance, as this is taking place in a parking lot, it could be expected that there would be cars around the area. Ones that could potentially be rigged to start on their own and attempt to bowl James over. Or even be transformed into traps themselves, something that has actually been seen within the franchise, though not necessarily by John himself.
 
Starter_Pack said:
The devil's in the details in this case, however. While John can basically expect what his opponent can do, the opposite is not true for James.

The fascinating thing about not just Jigsaw himself, but for the Saw franchise as a whole, is that the traps can be incredibly creative. For instance, as this is taking place in a parking lot, it could be expected that there would be cars around the area. Ones that could potentially be rigged to start on their own and attempt to bowl James over. Or even be transformed into traps themselves, something that has actually been seen within the franchise, though not necessarily by John himself.
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This round encourages stealth, so I presume Kramer's creativity would account for the fact that he may not know where his opponent is.

Alternatively, Cash does have feats on his side, although I'm not sure if they're going to be relevant here considering this is a trap match too.

On his own, Cash broke into Merryweather's estate & killed all of Cerberus & Piggsy opposing him there with his stealth & weapons on his own. The latter has killed multiple of the former & Cash was able to kill the latter with nothing but multiple wooden spikes.

Cerebus: "They appear to be from military or police backgrounds, as they have a great knowledge of military tactics, training, and phrases. They can be heard communicating in code and discussing military tactics in their fight against Cash. Some Cerberus are also former federal government agents,[1] and the experience that those individuals bring to the table is a testament to their overall high levels of professionalism or skill. They serve as the most dangerous group of enemies for Cash to face off in the game."

Kramer has dealt with people with military training tho, but how good is the people with military training? Seems like a win for Kramer so far.
 
As you said, John has managed to take out multiple people with police and military backgrounds like Daniel Rigg and Eric Matthews. Hell, he even managed to trap an entire SWAT team within one of his traps and killed several of them, and his apprentice managed to kill another SWAT team with a trap.

Another thing is due to John knowing how James tends to fight, he can work around it and essentially lure him into doing exactly what he wants. That is his M.O., leading his victims to kill themselves instead of doing the deed himself.

Frankly, I think you hit the nail on the head with your final statement. While James uses his stealth in order to sneak up on unsuspecting enemies and take them out, John is anything but unsuspecting. With literal years of honing his trap-setting craft and a battlefield that is just rife for him to set up many lethal traps, I'm not sure that James can get close enough to John to take him out before he finds himself in a game he cannot win.

Unless someone has anything else to add, I'm voting Jigsaw.
 
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