Star Wars Profiles

[god_cat]

Bump

 

[Grand_Astartes]

I'd like to see some further response to some of the points retroweeb raised but other than that I am mostly neutral for now

 

[god_cat]

No problem. Star wars needs some more love on this site



Still a few things that I want to comment on, but I'll break these down into sections

Spoiler: Abilities and Resistances

This isn't Low-Mid regen as Onimi isn't regenerating any lost limbs. This more so describes Mid-Low Regen. Also, withstanding toxins and poisons isn't regeneration, just a form of limited resistance and even then, the toxins were clearly having an affect on him. I also don't even know if Onimi should have this in the first place as he's never shown using it beyond this one instance and even then, it's ambiguous as to what causes his deformities to fix themselves. Maybe Limited Regeneration? IDK

Very minor nit pick, but since Vong tech is biotech based, this should likely be "Biotechnology Manipulation", which while not an ability itself, it can just link to both Technology Manip and Biological Manip pages.

Jacen undergoing a "metaphysical transformation" is not nearly enough evidence to assert that his Oneness state makes him an abstract, conceptual entity. Especially since the novel itself doesn't describe it in such a way, it is only ever said that his body became a vessel for the Force, not that his body itself underwent any sort of major change (other than the glowing of course).

In the very scans you linked, it describes Onimi dissolving into a "puddle of foul hydrocarbons". So clearly his existence isn't being erased at any point and the "reduced to nothingness" scan is just hyperbole.

This should be changed to "Limited Invulnerability" as they only resist Force based powers, not any kind of damage.

This isn't reality warping, this is just due to Onimi being biologically connected to the ship, as you mentioned in his "technology manipulation" ability. The ship loosing colour and temperature is likely just due to the ship dying and entering self-destruct state, not an inherent ability of Onimi to warp reality. Often in writing, when characters/things die, they are described as loosing colour/growing pale.

I know these resistances are just copied and pasted from Shimrra's profile, but his profile is hella outdated and you shouldn't be able to just write "and many, many others", you should instead list the exact Force abilities that he resists.
However, since that is what is accepted on Shimrra's profile, idk how prevalent it is for this specific CRT. Will def need to be tackled in the future. Might be fine for now.

Spoiler: Stat Stuff

As you know, I disagree with the infinite speed rating, but I won't go over that again. Although I will say that you don't need both speed ratings, just one or the other as Onimi only has 1 key.


1. I'm assuming you meant that Onimi was physically stronger than Oneness Jacen
2. I don't believe that it is currently accepted that Oneness users have an "avatar body" and "true self", so you would need a CRT for this
3. Onimi is never referred to as stronger than Oneness Jacen. The "pound for pound" statement comes before the two of them clash and Jacen enters into his Oneness state. That's just the order of events of the fight. Jacen is quite objectively not in a state of Oneness when this statement is made

The earthquakes were due to Onimi being connected to the ship, which has nothing to do with his striking strength but instead his hax

At no point is Onimi referred to as physically stronger than Shimrra. If he is, please provide a scan. Onimi is mainly a hax fighter.

Once again, why should Onimi have comparable dura to Shimrra?

Spoiler: Formatting Issues/Grammar Stuff

The | is used for when a character has more than 1 key, as Onimi only has 1 then it is unneeded. The Tier should just match the AP, so it would read

Same thing with the AP section, the "|" isn't necessary in "At least Planet level | possibly Solar System level" it should just read

Same thing for the Striking Strength and Durability sections.

I think this should read "Darth Sidious" instead of "Onimi Sidious". Also a good idea to link to Sidious' page as well for context.

Onimi isn't a girl, so it should say "his ability" and "his body", not "her".

I've already mentioned the speed rating. The | between FTL+ and Infinite isn't needed. Just pick one rating.


I've brought up my disagreement with this referring to Oneness Jacn, but this section could also be rewritten to be clearer, for example

or something along those lines.


In these sections, character names are spelt with a lowercase instead of an uppercase (E.g. you've written onimi instead of Onimi).


This section is missing a closing bracket at the end.


Once again, the | divider is not necessary and "its" should likely be "his". Instead is should read

I think that's just about everything I have to say about the profile. Sorry it ended up so long.

What about 1-C sidious Force storms blowing up space and opening wormholes in spacetime including hyperspace, basically devastating and affecting hyperspace which is higher dimensional than 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimensions, so wouldn't most NJO god layer characters scale?

 

[Abu2411]

What about 1-C sidious Force storms blowing up space and opening wormholes in spacetime including hyperspace, basically devastating and affecting hyperspace which is higher dimensional than 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimensions, so wouldn't most NJO god layer characters scale?

That is weird, because I was listening to the Dark Empire radio drama and it seems he causes Force Storms by unlocking his own inner reservoirs of Force energy (Timestamp; about 10:40).

He says a similar thing in his Book of the Sith:
"It must be understood that anger can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate". The destruction that can be unleashed by this method is immense. Enemies can be annihilated in a single act of malice. In time, the channelled anger of the dark side will prove just as destructive as the Death Star. There will no longer be a need for costly constructions. Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning."

So if Palpatine's Force Storm's are 1-C, then I can see him scaling to them since its just his own inner anger being channelled and unleashed.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

What about 1-C sidious Force storms blowing up space and opening wormholes in spacetime including hyperspace, basically devastating and affecting hyperspace which is higher dimensional than 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimensions, so wouldn't most NJO god layer characters scale?

As for Force Storms being 1-C. Considering that they're not accepted as such currently, you (or someone else) would have to get such a rating accepted in a CRT before adding it to any profiles. Since this CRT is about Onimi, not Sidious, I think a separate thread would be better but you can try and do it here if you want.

I also don't know if Force Storms themselves would be 1-C, as being able to access hyperspace could just be an inherent property of the ability rather than just being done through sheer strength. Similarly to how ships can enter hyperspace by travelling at FTL speeds, Force Storms/wormholes may access hyperspace via other means. Tho I don't currently have strong opinions on the matter.

That is weird, because I was listening to the Dark Empire radio drama and it seems he causes Force Storms by unlocking his own inner reservoirs of Force energy (Timestamp; about 10:40).

So what Sidious directly states in the link you provided is this

Using anger, I have learned to unlock the hidden reservoirs of the glorious dark side power... Anger concentrated by will in the vital centre of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released; the energies of the dark side of the Force. This is the power I command now that I am one with the dark side.

which is similar to what he states in the Book of Anger. He doesn't state that he is unlocking his own hidden reservoirs of power, but more so implies that he has discovered how to use the hidden depths of power of the dark side of the force itself. May sound pedantic, but this is an important distinction.

He says a similar thing in his Book of the Sith:
"It must be understood that anger can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate".

I don't think this means all that much, just that Force storms are created by channelling the user's inner anger, which is like the whole point of the dark side in general.

As for how I interpret Sidious' Force Storms, the Book of Anger seems to suggest that Force Storms utilise "the energies of the Dark Side of the Force", the "Dark Side power that permeates the Galaxy", and that they "unleash the Dark Side energies that are all around us". Which seem to suggest that they draw open energy that is external to Sidious' own. The Jedi Path even refers to Force Storms as a demonstration of "pure natural energy".

The end notes of Dark Empire 6 even refer to Sidious' creation of Force Storms as "he has triggered their onset". The use of "triggered" seems to suggest some sort of chain reaction that Sidious merely starts, which would explain why Force Storms are so difficult to control. Hyperspace Wormholes are even natural phenomena that can be triggered by great disturbances in the Force. The Dark Empire sourcebook even clarifies that Jedi/Sith create Force Storms by first twisting the space-time continuum.

Then there's also the fact that Luke, while amped by Leia, was able to best Sidious in a lighsaber fight, but when confronted with Sidious' Force Storm, Luke and Leia needed to join (final image) with the power of every Jedi to ever live and unify with the Force "in all its intensity" as Sidious' Force Storm could not be matched by any other power. This would seemingly suggest that Sidious' Force Storm was far greater than what Sidious himself could do normally.

Overall, it appears as though Sidious uses the natural dark side energies present in the galaxy to twist the space-time continuum, thus creating the necessary disturbance to trigger a Force Storm of far greater power than his own, hence why he cannot fully control them. Thus Sidious should not scale to his Force Storms normally.

 

[Abu2411]

I also don't know if Force Storms themselves would be 1-C, as being able to access hyperspace could just be an inherent property of the ability rather than just being done through sheer strength. Similarly to how ships can enter hyperspace by travelling at FTL speeds, Force Storms/wormholes may access hyperspace via other means. Tho I don't currently have strong opinions on the matter.

The user needs to channel their energy in order to twist space-time. They're still affecting hyperspace in this manner.

So what Sidious directly states in the link you provided is this

which is similar to what he states in the Book of Anger. He doesn't state that he is unlocking his own hidden reservoirs of power, but more so implies that he has discovered how to use the hidden depths of power of the dark side of the force itself. May sound pedantic, but this is an important distinction.

I don't think this means all that much, just that Force storms are created by channelling the user's inner anger, which is like the whole point of the dark side in general.

Yes, by using their own anger and channeling it in a specific way they can unleash massive amounts of dark side power. It's an internal process using their own rage.

As for how I interpret Sidious' Force Storms, the Book of Anger seems to suggest that Force Storms utilise "the energies of the Dark Side of the Force", the "Dark Side power that permeates the Galaxy", and that they "unleash the Dark Side energies that are all around us". Which seem to suggest that they draw open energy that is external to Sidious' own. The Jedi Path even refers to Force Storms as a demonstration of "pure natural energy".

The Book of Anger is pretty explicit in also saying how the Dark Side energies in question are released and accessed in the firdt place; Through the user channelling their own anger to their vital gate.

Regardless, even if they were drawing on outside power I dont see that making much difference, as they would just be taking external energies and manipulating it to open those Force Storms. They'd still have to control those energies to create the Force Storm in the first place.

The end notes of Dark Empire 6 even refer to Sidious' creation of Force Storms as "he has triggered their onset". The use of "triggered" seems to suggest some sort of chain reaction that Sidious merely starts, which would explain why Force Storms are so difficult to control. Hyperspace Wormholes are even natural phenomena that can be triggered by great disturbances in the Force. The Dark Empire sourcebook even clarifies that Jedi/Sith create Force Storms by first twisting the space-time continuum.

Well that's the thing, the trigger is twisting the fabric of space-time to create a hyperspace wormhole. Them being natural phenomena doesn't change anything when the user creates and controls their own.

Then there's also the fact that Luke, while amped by Leia, was able to best Sidious in a lighsaber fight, but when confronted with Sidious' Force Storm, Luke and Leia needed to join (final image) with the power of every Jedi to ever live and unify with the Force "in all its intensity" as Sidious' Force Storm could not be matched by any other power. This would seemingly suggest that Sidious' Force Storm was far greater than what Sidious himself could do normally.

In the lightsaber duel, you can see Luke being amplified by Leia who glows with energy. After the duel, when confronting Palpatine's Force Storm, the narration says "As Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources in Luke" continues being the key word here.

The Force Storm is Palpatine's power, the Dark Empire #6 scan at the end you posted identifies Palpatine with his own ability:

"The Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space"

Overall, it appears as though Sidious uses the natural dark side energies present in the galaxy to twist the space-time continuum, thus creating the necessary disturbance to trigger a Force Storm of far greater power than his own, hence why he cannot fully control them. Thus Sidious should not scale to his Force Storms normally.

As per the Book of Anger, it's the internal rage channeling which releases those dark side energies in the first place, allowing the user power to create a hyperspace wormhole. I'm not too concerned with Palpatine not having complete control over them, as I'm more interested in the actual creation of these wormholes which directly twist space-time.

Whether the wormholes themselves scale to 1-C or not I don't know, but I'm still leaning on Palpatine scaling to his Force Storms.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

The user needs to channel their energy in order to twist space-time. They're still affecting hyperspace in this manner.

Twisting spacetime =/= affecting hyperspace. Hyperspace is consistently describe as being beyond spacetime (hence why its 1-C). Twisting spacetime does not inherently require 1-C levels of energy and likely just acts as the "great disturbance" required to trigger a wormhole. The trigger does not need to scale to the after effects.

However, like I said, I have no strong opinions on whether Force Storms are 1-C or not.

Yes, by using their own anger and channeling it in a specific way they can unleash massive amounts of dark side power. It's an internal process using their own rage.

The Book of Anger is pretty explicit in also saying how the Dark Side energies in question are released and accessed in the firdt place; Through the user channelling their own anger to their vital gate.

As per the Book of Anger, it's the internal rage channeling which releases those dark side energies in the first place, allowing the user power to create a hyperspace wormhole. I'm not too concerned with Palpatine not having complete control over them, as I'm more interested in the actual creation of these wormholes which directly twist space-time.

Just gonna lump these together. The Book of Anger refers to opening "hidden reservoirs of Dark Side Power" with this being clarified as "the Dark Side Power that permeates the Galaxy", i.e. not Sidious' own. The description "anger concentrated by Will in the vital centre of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released - the energies of the Dark Side of the Force", which is once again clarified as being the "Dark Side energies that are all around us". At no point are they are referred to as Sidious' own energy.

Plus, the whole 'concentrating anger in the vital centre' stuff does not at all contradict my interpretation. All the BoA states is that portals are created from concentrated anger and will. Which is true. By concentrating his anger through will, Sidious can trigger disturbances in the Force that lead to wormholes forming. Nothing in the BoA contradicts this.

Regardless, even if they were drawing on outside power I dont see that making much difference, as they would just be taking external energies and manipulating it to open those Force Storms. They'd still have to control those energies to create the Force Storm in the first place.

I'm not claiming that Sidious uses outside energy to create Force Storms, I'm claiming that Sidious uses his own energy to twist spacetime, causing a disturbances that triggers Force Storms to "naturally" form, and that said storms are fuelled/created from the surrounding dark side energies that "permeate the galaxy".

Also, Sidious quite blatantly CANNOT control his Force Storms, at least not perfectly, heavily suggesting that the energies that exhibit are beyond his normal capabilities.

In the lightsaber duel, you can see Luke being amplified by Leia who glows with energy. After the duel, when confronting Palpatine's Force Storm, the narration says "As Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources in Luke" continues being the key word here.

I mean, this kinda supports my point even more. As Leia is continuing to unlock hidden resources, then the Luke that stopped Sidious's final Force Storm had EVEN MORE of his hidden power unlocked than he did when besting Sidious in the duel. Plus, the fact that Luke asks Leia to join her powers to his after Sidious uses his Force Storm, with Leia having to clarify that she's already been doing that this whole time, implies that Luke felt as though he needed a further amp beyond his Sidious-level power to stop/manipulate the Force Storms.

Sidious even refers to the Force Storms as his "full potency", which once again suggest Force Storms > Sidious' physicals. Unless you want to argue that Sidious was holding back in his fight against Luke.

Also the whole 'unity with 25,000 years of Jedi' thing likely amping him even more.

The Force Storm is Palpatine's power, the Dark Empire #6 scan at the end you posted identifies Palpatine with his own ability:

"The Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space"

Nothing suggests that Sidious can use these dark energies to amp himself to the level of Force Storms. The ability to augment one's physical attributes is still a skill that needs to be learned and developed and I see no reason to believe that Sidious is skilled enough to amp himself to those levels, especially when, as I mentioned previously, Sidious himself considers Force Storms to be his "full potency" on display.

Whether the wormholes themselves scale to 1-C or not I don't know, but I'm still leaning on Palpatine scaling to his Force Storms

Yeah I'm still unsure if the storms themselves should be 1-C or not. I can see arguments for either option. But I do believe that Sidious shouldn't scale to them physically, but should simply get a "higher with Force Storms" added to his AP section.

However, I think this discussion is deviating from the original purpose of this CRT, which is supposed to be about Onimi's profile, which I still have issues with (namely the infinite speed stuff), rather than any 1-C upgrades for other characters.

 

[Abu2411]

Twisting spacetime =/= affecting hyperspace. Hyperspace is consistently describe as being beyond spacetime (hence why its 1-C). Twisting spacetime does not inherently require 1-C levels of energy and likely just acts as the "great disturbance" required to trigger a wormhole. The trigger does not need to scale to the after effects.

However, like I said, I have no strong opinions on whether Force Storms are 1-C or not.

Do you have the sources for Hyperspace being beyond spacetime? I think it was only Mortis, which is why its Mortis that is 7-D. Hyperspace is at least two higher temporal dimensions with four spatial dimensions going by the profiles.

Just gonna lump these together. The Book of Anger refers to opening "hidden reservoirs of Dark Side Power" with this being clarified as "the Dark Side Power that permeates the Galaxy", i.e. not Sidious' own. The description "anger concentrated by Will in the vital centre of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released - the energies of the Dark Side of the Force", which is once again clarified as being the "Dark Side energies that are all around us". At no point are they are referred to as Sidious' own energy.

Plus, the whole 'concentrating anger in the vital centre' stuff does not at all contradict my interpretation. All the BoA states is that portals are created from concentrated anger and will. Which is true. By concentrating his anger through will, Sidious can trigger disturbances in the Force that lead to wormholes forming. Nothing in the BoA contradicts this.

The thing is that Palpatine is unleashing these Dark Side energies through his own will and anger, the sources which empower his strength in the Force. Another thing to mention is that even ambient Dark Side energies can be used to amp dark siders, like Count Dooku on Vjun, so I don't see any reason why these same dark energies which Sidious unleashed can't be used to empower himself anyway, regardless if they are his own or not.

I'm not claiming that Sidious uses outside energy to create Force Storms, I'm claiming that Sidious uses his own energy to twist spacetime, causing a disturbances that triggers Force Storms to "naturally" form, and that said storms are fuelled/created from the surrounding dark side energies that "permeate the galaxy".

Also, Sidious quite blatantly CANNOT control his Force Storms, at least not perfectly, heavily suggesting that the energies that exhibit are beyond his normal capabilities.

Yes he can control his Force Storms, though I also never claimed he could do it perfectly so I don't disagree. I think being able to use Force Storms to transport someone from one place to another like he did with Luke shows a great degree of control, but its certainly not absolute.

I mean, this kinda supports my point even more. As Leia is continuing to unlock hidden resources, then the Luke that stopped Sidious's final Force Storm had EVEN MORE of his hidden power unlocked than he did when besting Sidious in the duel. Plus, the fact that Luke asks Leia to join her powers to his after Sidious uses his Force Storm, with Leia having to clarify that she's already been doing that this whole time, implies that Luke felt as though he needed a further amp beyond his Sidious-level power to stop/manipulate the Force Storms.

Sidious even refers to the Force Storms as his "full potency", which once again suggest Force Storms > Sidious' physicals. Unless you want to argue that Sidious was holding back in his fight against Luke.

Also the whole 'unity with 25,000 years of Jedi' thing likely amping him even more.

Nothing suggests that Sidious can use these dark energies to amp himself to the level of Force Storms. The ability to augment one's physical attributes is still a skill that needs to be learned and developed and I see no reason to believe that Sidious is skilled enough to amp himself to those levels, especially when, as I mentioned previously, Sidious himself considers Force Storms to be his "full potency" on display.

I mean to be fair, he does say he is tired of Luke and Leia's "jedi duelling games", so the idea that he was not using the true extent of his power can be implied.

Another thing I find interesting is that one of the major plot points of the Dark Empire series is that Palpatine's physical body can not contain his awesome power. As I remember more of the series, as well as this scan you posted that highlights how Sidious is beyond his physical form and is now a swirling chaotic nexus and identifies him with his Force Storms. I think I'm leaning on changing my opinion so that it's not his physical body that would scale to the storms, but his spirit instead.

Yeah I'm still unsure if the storms themselves should be 1-C or not. I can see arguments for either option. But I do believe that Sidious shouldn't scale to them physically, but should simply get a "higher with Force Storms" added to his AP section.

However, I think this discussion is deviating from the original purpose of this CRT, which is supposed to be about Onimi's profile, which I still have issues with (namely the infinite speed stuff), rather than any 1-C upgrades for other characters.

Yeah, I'd still like to see sources of hyperspace itself being beyond spacetime but we are moving away from the topic at hand. This case should be discussed in a separate thread, though I can't say I'll have the time to make it myself.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

Do you have the sources for Hyperspace being beyond spacetime? I think it was only Mortis, which is why its Mortis that is 7-D. Hyperspace is at least two higher temporal dimensions with four spatial dimensions going by the profiles.

I just interpreted spacetime in this context as just being the standard 4 dimensions of the universe (as they are often just referred to as space-time colloquially). Plus as per the previous thread, real space is only a Low 2-C construct, so manipulating the space-time of real space would just be 4-D.

Also, as per that last thread, both Hyperspace and Mortis are accepted as 7-D.

Another thing I find interesting is that one of the major plot points of the Dark Empire series is that Palpatine's physical body can not contain his awesome power. As I remember more of the series, as well as this scan you posted that highlights how Sidious is beyond his physical form and is now a swirling chaotic nexus and identifies him with his Force Storms. I think I'm leaning on changing my opinion so that it's not his physical body that would scale to the storms, but his spirit instead.

Not gonna discuss the other stuff, but just wanted to address this. I find this a really interesting interpretation, with Force Storms instead scaling to Sidious' spirit but not his physical body. Never thought about it this way but it does make sense given the context of DE. I think this might be something I can get behind, but it would look kinda weird on the profile. Maybe something like

Tier: 1-C, 4-B with clone bodies

Idk, this could work. (1-C rating is just a stand in).

Yeah, I'd still like to see sources of hyperspace itself being beyond spacetime

My bad. By "beyond spacetime" I just meant beyond 4-D

we are moving away from the topic at hand

Agreed.

 

[god_cat]

I just interpreted spacetime in this context as just being the standard 4 dimensions of the universe (as they are often just referred to as space-time colloquially). Plus as per the previous thread, real space is only a Low 2-C construct, so manipulating the space-time of real space would just be 4-D.

Also, as per that last thread, both Hyperspace and Mortis are accepted as 7-D.

Not gonna discuss the other stuff, but just wanted to address this. I find this a really interesting interpretation, with Force Storms instead scaling to Sidious' spirit but not his physical body. Never thought about it this way but it does make sense given the context of DE. I think this might be something I can get behind, but it would look kinda weird on the profile. Maybe something like

Idk, this could work. (1-C rating is just a stand in).

My bad. By "beyond spacetime" I just meant beyond 4-D

Agreed.

So in this case, do you think 1-C sidious is possible or who would be the characters that would scale to it?

 

[RetroWeeeb]

So in this case, do you think 1-C sidious is possible or who would be the characters that would scale to it?

As I said in the post you quoted, I'm still on the fence on whether or not I think Force Storms are 1-C or not, and I think that any discussions on Sidious's Force Storms should be saved for a separate thread that actually focuses on the topic (apparently someone else is already working on a 1-C Sidious thread, so just wait for that). This CRT is about Onimi's profile, so lets just stick to that.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Back to say I agree with the profile for the most part but I believe the Infinite speed stuff should be saved for another thread

 

[RetroWeeeb]

Just another thing about the speed stuff that I just noticed, currently the proposed profile reads

Speed: At least FTL+ reactions and combat speed (Casually knocked away Jaina Solo)

1. Jaina doesn't have a profile, so a better justification would be his fight against Jacen, as Jacen does have a profile, or at least a comment comparing Jaina's speed to someone who does have a profile

2. Jacen's NJO key is just rated as a flat "FTL" without the at least or plus modifier, so Onimi's should be changed in accordance. I don't see a reason why Onimi's speed would scale to FTL+ as the only characters with such speed during NJO are Luke and Shimrra, neither of whom Onimi fights.

I also have no idea where the FTL+ rating comes from at all. None of the profiles explain it and there isn't a FTL+ calc on the main SW page. Probably safer to just stick with FTL for now

 

[god_cat]

OK, I have removed everything contradictory in the profile for now, you can look at the latest status and if there is still something you find wrong, you can specify it.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

OK, I have removed everything contradictory in the profile for now, you can look at the latest status and if there is still something you find wrong, you can specify it.

I obviously agree with the speed section now and while you have changed some of it, there is still some stuff from my previous comment (before the Sidious stuff) that hasn't been addressed/countered.

To just copy + paste the stuff from my earlier comment that I still disagree with

Spoiler: Previous comments

• Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1 onimi could interact with the Full oneness jacen, an abstract and metaphysical entity)

Jacen undergoing a "metaphysical transformation" is not nearly enough evidence to assert that his Oneness state makes him an abstract, conceptual entity. Especially since the novel itself doesn't describe it in such a way, it is only ever said that his body became a vessel for the Force, not that his body itself underwent any sort of major change (other than the glowing of course).

Limited Reality Warping (Onimi was able to control the environment of the living ship, but after his death the temperature and colors in and around the ship's units began to fade.)

This isn't reality warping, this is just due to Onimi being biologically connected to the ship, as you mentioned in his "technology manipulation" ability. The ship loosing colour and temperature is likely just due to the ship dying and entering self-destruct state, not an inherent ability of Onimi to warp reality. Often in writing, when characters/things die, they are described as loosing colour/growing pale.

and also oneness was referred to as physically stronger than jacen's avatar body)

1. I'm assuming you meant that Onimi was physically stronger than Oneness Jacen
2. I don't believe that it is currently accepted that Oneness users have an "avatar body" and "true self", so you would need a CRT for this
3. Onimi is never referred to as stronger than Oneness Jacen. The "pound for pound" statement comes before the two of them clash and Jacen enters into his Oneness state. That's just the order of events of the fight. Jacen is quite objectively not in a state of Oneness when this statement is made

He was also able to create earthquakes that threatened to destroy the Citadel district.

The earthquakes were due to Onimi being connected to the ship, which has nothing to do with his striking strength but instead his hax

He was superior to Shimrra, the most powerful Vong of his time.

At no point is Onimi referred to as physically stronger than Shimrra. If he is, please provide a scan. Onimi is mainly a hax fighter.

(It should be comparable to Shimrra who can exchange punches with Luke)

Once again, why should Onimi have comparable dura to Shimrra?

possibly Solar System level (He had control over Shimrra, which was compared to Onimi Sidious

I think this should read "Darth Sidious" instead of "Onimi Sidious". Also a good idea to link to Sidious' page as well for context.

Also, I noticed a formatting issue in the striking strength section. Currently it reads

Striking Strength: At least Planet level (He knocked out a powerful jedi like Jaina Solo in an instant.), possibly Solar System level He was also able to create earthquakes that threatened to destroy the Citadel district.) He was superior to Shimrra, the most powerful Vong of his time.

There is no opening bracket at the start of the justification for Solar System level, and the closing bracket is in the middle of the justification rather than at the end.

 

[god_cat]

I obviously agree with the speed section now and while you have changed some of it, there is still some stuff from my previous comment (before the Sidious stuff) that hasn't been addressed/countered.

To just copy + paste the stuff from my earlier comment that I still disagree with

Spoiler: Previous comments

Jacen undergoing a "metaphysical transformation" is not nearly enough evidence to assert that his Oneness state makes him an abstract, conceptual entity. Especially since the novel itself doesn't describe it in such a way, it is only ever said that his body became a vessel for the Force, not that his body itself underwent any sort of major change (other than the glowing of course).

This isn't reality warping, this is just due to Onimi being biologically connected to the ship, as you mentioned in his "technology manipulation" ability. The ship loosing colour and temperature is likely just due to the ship dying and entering self-destruct state, not an inherent ability of Onimi to warp reality. Often in writing, when characters/things die, they are described as loosing colour/growing pale.

1. I'm assuming you meant that Onimi was physically stronger than Oneness Jacen
2. I don't believe that it is currently accepted that Oneness users have an "avatar body" and "true self", so you would need a CRT for this
3. Onimi is never referred to as stronger than Oneness Jacen. The "pound for pound" statement comes before the two of them clash and Jacen enters into his Oneness state. That's just the order of events of the fight. Jacen is quite objectively not in a state of Oneness when this statement is made

The earthquakes were due to Onimi being connected to the ship, which has nothing to do with his striking strength but instead his hax

At no point is Onimi referred to as physically stronger than Shimrra. If he is, please provide a scan. Onimi is mainly a hax fighter.

Once again, why should Onimi have comparable dura to Shimrra?

I think this should read "Darth Sidious" instead of "Onimi Sidious". Also a good idea to link to Sidious' page as well for context.

Also, I noticed a formatting issue in the striking strength section. Currently it reads

There is no opening bracket at the start of the justification for Solar System level, and the closing bracket is in the middle of the justification rather than at the end.

I have corrected everything you said except for the Citadel earthquakes, unfortunately I do not agree with you about these earthquakes for now.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

I have corrected everything you said except for the Citadel earthquakes, unfortunately I do not agree with you about these earthquakes for now.

Well I guess that is the only thing left then. Other than the Citadel thing, I now agree with everything else. Though I am curious, why do you think he created the earthquakes through physical strength?

 

[god_cat]

Well I guess that is the only thing left then. Other than the Citadel thing, I now agree with everything else. Though I am curious, why do you think he created the earthquakes through physical strength?

Actually, I don't think it can be attributed to physical strength exactly, it can only serve as a placeholder.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

Actually, I don't think it can be attributed to physical strength exactly, it can only serve as a placeholder.

Placeholder for what exactly? If you agree it doesn't correlate to his physical strength, then it shouldn't be used as a justification. I think knocking out Jaina in an instant is fine enough as a justification already, although it could have a scan linked.

 

[god_cat]

Placeholder for what exactly? If you agree it doesn't correlate to his physical strength, then it shouldn't be used as a justification. I think knocking out Jaina in an instant is fine enough as a justification already, although it could have a scan linked.

Ok, I fixed it

 

[god_cat]

Placeholder for what exactly? If you agree it doesn't correlate to his physical strength, then it shouldn't be used as a justification. I think knocking out Jaina in an instant is fine enough as a justification already, although it could have a scan linked.

But doesn't the fact that the galaxy will be plunged into darkness because of one mistake by Jacen scale the onimi higher?

 

[god_cat]

But doesn't the fact that the galaxy will be plunged into darkness because of one mistake by Jacen scale the onimi higher?

 

[RetroWeeeb]

But doesn't the fact that the galaxy will be plunged into darkness because of one mistake by Jacen scale the onimi higher?

I don't get what you're trying to propose here? Jacen's misstep plunging the galaxy into darkness just refers to them loosing the war if he doesn't succeed.

Also, for his striking strength, you've put the knocking out Jaina part as justification for his planet level rating, but then his solar system rating is apparently due to being "comparable to Jacen". This gives the impression that Jacen is solar system level at the time, which he most definitely is not, so this justification is misleading.

 

[god_cat]

I don't get what you're trying to propose here? Jacen's misstep plunging the galaxy into darkness just refers to them loosing the war if he doesn't succeed.

Also, for his striking strength, you've put the knocking out Jaina part as justification for his planet level rating, but then his solar system rating is apparently due to being "comparable to Jacen". This gives the impression that Jacen is solar system level at the time, which he most definitely is not, so this justification is misleading.

what I mean is that when Jacen was FO, wouldn't a single mistake have been a problem for him because that's what these statements were referring to, of course I'm not saying that oniminin should scale to FO Jacen, but maybe it's higher than it is now.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

what I mean is that when Jacen was FO, wouldn't a single mistake have been a problem for him because that's what these statements were referring to, of course I'm not saying that oniminin should scale to FO Jacen, but maybe it's higher than it is now.

Just gonna repost Jacen and Onimi's fight for context. (I'm also assuming FO = full oneness)

The text states that "Jacen wasn't defending himself so much as using Onimi's own strengths against him", so FO Jacen wasn't parrying Onimi because he needed to defend himself, but so he could abuse Onimi's toxins.

It also states that "Onimi fought with everything that remained in him, but Jacen could not be overwhelmed" and that "Onimi was becoming more insubstantial by the moment". It is clear that Onimi posed absolutely no threat to FO Jacen and that the comment of him not making any missteps was just to further highlight how Jacen had become one with the Force.

There's also the issue of FO Jacen not have any accepted tiering. If he is 1-A or above, then Onimi absolutely cannot scale in any way as that would contradict the definition of 1-A. If FO Jacen does have a physical avatar and a "true self" (as you have suggested previously), then his avatar's only scaling is being stronger than Onimi, which wouldn't grant any new rating.

So no, I don't think Onimi vs FO Jacen would grant any new tiering as I do not believe Onimi is capable of threatening FO Jacen, and even if he could, it doesn't really mean much.

 

[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

Just gonna repost Jacen and Onimi's fight for context. (I'm also assuming FO = full oneness)

The text states that "Jacen wasn't defending himself so much as using Onimi's own strengths against him", so FO Jacen wasn't parrying Onimi because he needed to defend himself, but so he could abuse Onimi's toxins.

It also states that "Onimi fought with everything that remained in him, but Jacen could not be overwhelmed" and that "Onimi was becoming more insubstantial by the moment". It is clear that Onimi posed absolutely no threat to FO Jacen and that the comment of him not making any missteps was just to further highlight how Jacen had become one with the Force.

There's also the issue of FO Jacen not have any accepted tiering. If he is 1-A or above, then Onimi absolutely cannot scale in any way as that would contradict the definition of 1-A. If FO Jacen does have a physical avatar and a "true self" (as you have suggested previously), then his avatar's only scaling is being stronger than Onimi, which wouldn't grant any new rating.

So no, I don't think Onimi vs FO Jacen would grant any new tiering as I do not believe Onimi is capable of threatening FO Jacen, and even if he could, it doesn't really mean much.

I made a change in the profile, I would appreciate it if you could check it.

 

[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[god_cat]

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[Grand_Astartes]

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[LordVader30]

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