Star Wars EU Scaling

[LordXcano]

I don't know what's going on with how we scaled our profiles. As an example I'll use Anakin Skywalker. Anakin is Continent level for beating Darth Tyranus, and Tyranus is Continent level for being able to produce lightning comparable to Yoda's power. Yet if you look at Yoda's page he is listed as Small Planet level, so where did the arbitrary Continent ranking come from?

Going even further from there, Yoda is Small Planet level for containing Sidious' power. And why is Sidious Small Planet level? For being comparable to Vitiate. And why is Vitiate Small Planet level? For having likely doubled his power. That's just pure speculation without even a number to back it up. So what we have here is:

Vitiate (Small Planet on speculation) < Sidious (Small Planet) = Yoda (Small Planet) < Tyranus (Continent) < Anakin (Continent)

And then we have Obi-Wan Kenobi who is scaled to Continent level for stalemating Darth Vader. Issue here is that Darth Vader is listed as Multi-Continent. The given reason? Also speculation. He surpassed his previous power, but by how much we don't know.

I'm sure there are more things like this, but there are way too many pages for me to go through right now.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Well, theirs a few continent level calcs I found on NF (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), I don't know much about the EU but I believe the 6-A charactes scale off one of those.

Also, isn't Vitiate on the relative higher end of Moon level? Sidious is way, way above Vitiate, and Luke is way, way above Sidious so I feel the Small Planet stuff is somewhat justified for them, maybe "At least Moon level+, likely Small Planet" or something among those lines.

That said, most of what I know about Star Wars EU comes from Aparajita and Everlasting, so take what I said with a grain of salt.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Scaling in general for Continent level stats comes from Tho.

And if Vitiate were to have done one feat that involved him absorbing over half the energy required for Small Planet level (Somewhere around 230 exatons IIRC), and then did that same feat again near-identically, why wouldn't it be Small Planet level?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, some clarifications within the profiles might be helpful.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Also, scaling for Dooku comes from him being stated to be one of the most powerful Jedi ever produced by the Order.

 

[Archnyx]

For Vader's case I believed he's scaled from Sidious, who had enough power to "kill" a planet.

 

[Aparajita]

Okay. Vitate has a very strong Moon level feat

Sidious is horrendously stronger than Vitate

Vader is 80% of Sidious' strength at Vader's peak

Tyrannus shouldn't have been weaker than Thon.

Yoda should be comparable to RotS Sidious, who is more powerful than Darth Plagueis.

Personally, Yoda managed to survive Sidious' lightning, but it did overload his Tul and shows that Yoda was severely outmatched in power.

The only person, in my opinion that is debatable, is Yoda.

 

[The_Everlasting]

For Vader's case I believed he's scaled from Sidious, who had enough power to "kill" a planet.

Actually it's from being able to briefly survive being blasted by RotJ Sidious' Force Lightning in spite of his weakness to electricity.

 

[LordXcano]

Where are the quotes to suggest Sidious is horrendously stronger than Vitiate?

 

[Aparajita]

Where are the quotes to suggest Sidious is horrendously stronger than Vitiate?

Lucas personally states that Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord. This was before the Canon was sold to disney, so this included the EU characters like Vitiate.

Darth Plagueis was a student of the Bane Line that studied "All of the knowledge of the past masters", including Lord Vitiate. Darth Tenebrous, Plagueis, and Sidious all have been cited as calling Plagueis the "wisest and most powerful Sith Lord to date", this is 60 (ish) years before Revenge of the Sith.

Plagueis > Vitiate 60 years before Revenge of the Sith.

That means Sidious (at Dark Empire peak) is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vitiate, as Revenge of the Sith Sidious was reaching Plagueis in power.

 

[Archnyx]

Lucas personally states that Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord. This was before the Canon was sold to disney, so this included the EU characters like Vitiate.

Darth Plagueis was a student of the Bane Line that studied "All of the knowledge of the past masters", including Lord Vitiate. Darth Tenebrous, Plagueis, and Sidious all have been cited as calling Plagueis the "wisest and most powerful Sith Lord to date", this is 60 (ish) years before Revenge of the Sith.

Plagueis > Vitiate 60 years before Revenge of the Sith.

That means Sidious (at Dark Empire peak) is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vitiate, as Revenge of the Sith Sidious was reaching Plagueis in power.

You're forgetting that Vitiate wasn't part of Bane's Rule of two. Hence, you can't precisely compare them. In fact, between them, several reservoirs of knowledge was lost. For example, the Sith academy at Malachor V was lost when the Mass Shadow Generator was reactivated.

As far as I know nothing indicates Plagueis being stronger than Vitiate. Though Sidious stated that he(Plagueis) was the wisest and most powerful Sith Lord, that might be referring only to those following the Rule of two. To validate this, take note of the statement made for the Lost 20. It is stated that "Only 20 Jedi have ever left the Order." The first being Phanius and the last being Dooku. Yet, there have been other schisms within the order. Those who followed the Legions of Lettow and the exiled Jedis which later became the Sith empire and several others who voluntarily left the order, they are not reflected on the Lost 20 as well.

In the end, that was a simple statement and nothing more. Feat-wise, Plagueis doesn't really compare to Vitiate.

 

[Aparajita]

I would agree with that Archnyx, if Plagueis didn't outright talk and teach Sidious about "Lord Vititate, who could drains of life." then he said, "Do you want to become a scholar, Sidious, or do you want real power?"

I have Plagueis' novel sitting beside me if you want me to quote the page.

Several Reservoirs was lost, however, barring the specific rituals at the time (Kun's ritual, Vititate's, etc), the Sith Lords of Old aren't shown to have very many different talents than modern Sith Lords. Alchemy? Check. Sorcery? Check. Rituals? Check. Traditional Force Powers? Check.

Unlike Sith Lords of Vitate's era, Lords of the Bane Line were undoubtably stronger than their predecessor.

And, feat wise, Vitate has the strongest feat in Star Wars iirc, rest is done via statements from Word of God and powerscaling.

Darth Tenebrous, who was regarded as the one who pushed the Great Plan further than any Dark Lord save Sidious, said that Plagueis was "The strongest Sith Lord in history.", including the likes of Kun, Vitate, and Ragnos.

 

[Archnyx]

Even if Tenebrous said that Plagueis was the strongest Sith Lord in history, how can we be sure that his statement was well grounded and not made off-handed. Since they're from Bane's line, their foundations would also be from Darth Bane and Bane was part of Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness. I believe Kaan and his followers were generalized as the "New" Sith empire. This "New" Sith, founded by Phanius - AKA Darth Ruin - was to be composed by the different Sith clans left after the disappearance of Vitiate's empire. It would be years after Ruin's death, and several conflicts, that Kaan would be able to fully unite the remaining Sith.

Vitiate's empire, however, was composed of the remaining Sith after the end of the Great Hyperspace War. I'm not too familiar with these particular events in the Old Republic, but I believe it was after his defeat by the Hero of Tython that he and eventually his empire disappeared. What happened to them, personally I don't know, I'm not up-to-date with that.

With the disappearance of Vitiate and his empire, the New Sith was practically leaderless and, more importantly, scattered. From Darth Ruin to Kaan, several conflicts were had and several leaders rose and fell.

How is this relevant? Well, Vitiate himself is out of the picture. What happened to him, I can't say. The main point is that the New Sith were independent from Vitiate's influence. It is not know if the clans reunited by Phanius or his successors were from Vitiate's empire. Even if some of the New Sith were remnants from the old order, that in no way means that they are representative of them. In short, I believe we cannot compare them.

I know Plagueis mentioned Vitiate but that's to be expected. I'm sure there were records of what he did to Nathema. If they mentioned meeting or confronting Vitiate in person or his spirit, that would be a different case. But, as far as I know, they did not. Their relationship with Vitiate and the depths of their knowledge about him were also not clarified.

To summarize: since the New Sith line - Bane included - were without the influence of Vitiate, I believe that the statements made in the book were unfounded and not an entirely reliable measure of power.

However, I would like to know what pages those statements were made. So that I may read and evaluate them myself.

 

[Aparajita]

I will continue this conversation in private, Archnyx, as to not flood Xcano's thread with stuff that doesn't partain to the thread topic at hand.

Sidious has been quoted by many sources as being superior to any Sith Lord who has ever lived, including by Word of God himself.

Others scale to Sidious.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

I don't think Sidious is horrendously stronger than Vitiate, meh.

IMO the scaling is

Luke Skywalker > Darth Caedus > Sidious > Yoda > Plagueis > Vitiate >>> Vader >>> Exar Kun

I used to be a semi-expert on Star Wars but I'm kinda rusty on it nowadays.


I agree with most of Aparajita's points, however

 

[Aparajita]

Luke Skywalker > Darth Caedus > Sidious > Yoda > Plagueis > Vitiate >>> Vader >>> Exar Kun

I don't think Caedus is stronger than Sidious. Luke was destroyed in combat twice by Sidious.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Before his prime. He'd godstomp Sidious at his peak.

 

[Aparajita]

Before his prime. He'd godstomp Sidious at his peak.

Agree to disagree.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Very well then.

 

[Archnyx]

I will continue this conversation in private, Archnyx, as to not flood Xcano's thread with stuff that doesn't partain to the thread topic at hand.

Sidious has been quoted by many sources as being superior to any Sith Lord who has ever lived, including by Word of God himself.

Others scale to Sidious.

Actually, I think this is quite relevant to the topic since this concerns scaling in the EU. I'm trying to say that, with our current information, it would be unwise to scale some people off Vitiate. I totally agree that Sidious is considered as the strongest Sith Lord. I also agree that while others scale off Sidious that does not mean they scale off Vitiate. It would seem misleading and might lead to wrong correlations and conclusions.

 

[Aparajita]

Other than Plagueis, who scales to Vitiate, except for Sidious?

Sidious was reaching Vitiate's level of power at Revenge of the Sith levels.

Yoda is comparable to RotS Sidious for overloading his Tulanis and absorbing his Sith Lightning.

Vader is 80% of Sidious.

Luke is superior to them all.

Exar Kun is cited as being "the strongest darkness since Sidious"

Darth Cadeus is the only Sith Lord who could withstand a prime, bloodlusted Luke's attacks and fight him.

Darth Krayt helped Luke actually harm Abeloth, a Star Level being.

Darth Tyrannus should have been stronger than Darth Bane - per the rule of two.

Plagueis was able to drastically alter the tempature of an entire planet simply by arriving on it, to say nothing of his actual feats itself, like creating a shield able to withstand the backlash of a moon destroying nuclear blast.

 

[Archnyx]

I agree to most of these points. But I would like to clarify a few things.

First, concerning Cadeus. If you're referring to the time Cadeus tortured Ben and fought Luke, that fight was interrupted. It's one thing to hold your own against someone and another thing entirely to be able to defeat them. Also remember that Mara Jade nearly killed Jacen and forced him to use an underhanded method to kill her. Also, throughout the series Jacen, though a prodigy, was said to be comparable to his sister Jaina. She did kill him afterall.

Next, for Krayt. Abeloth spread her essence across several avatars. There was one fought by Ben, one on Coruscant, one fought by Tahiri(I think), and the one fought by Luke and Krayt at the Lake of Apparitions. It was even noted that if one of her avatars are killed then all would be weakened. As such, with the death of her several avatars she was weakened enough to be temporarily destroyed.

For the bit about Plagueis, where is that from? I don't seem to recall him erecting a shield of that magnitude. In any case I would like to point out that despite his powers he was still human( alien, I know, but the point remains the same). Remember that, due to a moments hesitation, he was nearly killed by a bunch of non force-sensitive Maladian assassins.

For the rest of the points though, I don't have much quarrel with them.

 

[Aparajita]

For the bit about Plagueis, where is that from?

Some of your points are riddled with PIS. Cadeus had to have been comparable to a bloodlusted Luke to remotely stand against him for the duration, regardless of if the fight was interuppted. IIRC, Cadeus wasn't exactly losing the fight.

Mara Jade wasn't exactly a pushover, she was one of - if not the best - Dark Jedi that Sidious has ever recieved or trained.

Regardless of how many Avatars were fought, they were certainly stronger than any Jedi itself. Krayt managed to assist Luke with fighting Abeloth.

Plagueis shielded himself and his ship from the destruction of the Hunter's Moon. The Atomic Weapon that was used left it a crater iirc and he shielded the ship from the Blast Wave.

Oh, right, the non-force sensitive assassins. Right, i guess we should downgrade Goku for a laser or a rock, right? Ignoring PIS or CIS, it's possible for even people with supreme power to mess up.

Look at Sidious being betrayed by Vader, for example.

 

[Archnyx]

I'd argue on the point of Jacen that it was not PIS. A world of difference could happen between the start of a battle and if it was drawn out. Luke even had no doubt that he could defeat Jacen but chose to leave it to Jaina for fear of falling into the darkside.

For Abeloth's case, the point I wanted to make was that her defeat was not due to Luke's efforts alone. It was a collective one. It would be a bit difficult to measure an individual's power based on a collective effort.

For Plageuis' case, in no way did I mean to disregard your statements. I just wanted to point out that his insight and foresight was not on Vitiate's level. To my memory, Vitiate never made such a mistake or oversight. I just wanted to show the statement that he is the wisest Sith would not apply to those before Bane's time.