Star Wars - Ancient Sith Revision

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Marka Ragnos despite his implications, is regarded by an Post DE Luke rather well:

"If Ragnos is resurrected, there's no telling what he might be able to do. It will take all of our strength to stop him." Jedi Academy Luke, which takes place Post-Dark Empire

Let's remember that in general, Marka Ragnos swas definitely much weaker than his prime, since he got weaker overtime in the same manner as Exar Kun. Jedi Academy takes place after the Dark Empire Arc , which Luke's description is described as being in the same realm of power as palpatine.

This would mean that an Prime Markos is most definitely above an Dark Empire Luke. This would have drastic ramifications, such as those stated for Vitiate and other such stated rto be comparable to him , if no surpass him, at the time. Also, an Prime Markos was seen in The Old Republic, yet Vitiate is consistently stated to be the strongest force wielder of the decade. I would've normally ignored Jaden Korr scaling to him, but the fact an POST Dark Empire Luke was afraid of an Dark Side Jaden Korr more than implied they are in the Tier 4 range.

The only anti-feat turns against him when you realize an Post-DE Luke was fearful of the very one doing the Anti-Feat. And the whole 'strongest jedi/sith in history' can always be contradicted if appropriate counters are found, which these definitely fit. If acceped, the scaling and justification would be:

Prime Vitiate / Valkorion >>> Hero of Tython (Stated to far surpass an much stronger variant of the Weakened Vitiate, but still wasn't at his full power. This Amped Weakened Vitiate is stated to be "no match" and was ragdolled if they submitted to the dark side) >>> Weaknened Vitiate (Should be comparable to or superior to an Prime Ragnos, stated to be the strongest Sith Lord in history even after the ritual which left him very drained of power) > Prime Ragnos >> Weakened Ragnos (An Weakened Ragnos is stated by an Post Dark Empire Luke to be an threat requiring every Jedi and himself to defeat) >=< DE Luke = Jaden Korr ~ Sidious > Yoda >= Mace Windu = Mother Talsin (Amped)

Whoever would fit in between this powerscale should also be upgraded. Any comments or concerns are very, very appreciated.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah... no. Ragnos just got stronger as a Force spirit, as did Exar Kun. Plus Sidious, as of either RotJ or Dark Empire, I can’t remember which, was stated to possibly be the most powerful being who had ever lived. Nobody from the Old Republic even holds a candle to him.

And that’s not even mentioning the multitudes of times Sidious is stated to be the most powerful Sith, or those that scale to him (like Yoda) are stated to be the most powerful Jedi of all time.

 

[LordTracer]

Oh, and Dark Empire Luke is not equal to Sidious in the slightest. As shown in the Dark Empire Audiodrama, Luke and Sidious had a brief duel that ended with Luke out of breath and Sidious still going strong.

EMPEROR: Does it tell you how many other so-called "Jedi Masters" failed to vanquish me? Does your knowledge tell you that I have already beaten you?! Poor Jedi. Your kind will soon be extinct. And how fitting that one of their precious lightsabers brings an end to the Jedi delusion!!
Sound: Luke lunges. The two clash sabers, and duel viciously.
EMPEROR: What's the matter, Skywalker? Getting tired? Not quite as young as you were when you fought your father!
LUKE: (breathing hard) You have filled the galaxy with your darkness. But I have seen what my father could not see. I have seen that ultimately, the Dark Side will FAIL!!
EMPEROR: Jedi FOOL! In spite of the stories you tell yourself, I am the stronger! Did I not warn you?!? Now, take the consequences of your failure, like your father before you!!
Sound: Furious dueling--but the Emperor gets the better of Luke, forcing the elder Jedi's lightsaber out of his hands. Both lightsabers deactivate.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Uh... Your comment about Exar Kun is flawed since he got stronger through a very specific ritual... This was directly stated in the novels. And unless you can give an example of every other Force Spirit getting a spike in power through becoming a Force Ghost, I don't see that as being a logical conclusion. Especially when during the research there was nothing brought up that Markos got stronger when he became a force ghost, unlike Exar Kun, which was once again, through the Yavin IV Ritual.

Okay then ? Even if this the case, which I don't doubt, they should scale comparable to DE Luke, who should be Tier 4. This doesn't change unless you prove Markos Ragnos, through scans is stronger as a force ghost than he was in real life.

 

[LordTracer]

How about an echo of Ragnos’ spirit amping Darth Nox to the point that they can fight with a Tier 4 Revan, this same Revan being above his Novel self, who was able to match Vitiate, who is stated above Alive Ragnos?

Or the fact that literally nothing says Ragnos’ spirit is equal or weaker than when he was alive, and him having greater feats than his alive self would just prove Spirit Ragnos > Alive Ragnos.

Oh, and let’s not forget Karness Muur, an Old Republic era Sith, being stated to surpass Darth Krayt (the same man that traded blows with Obi-Wan Kenobi in his prime) as a spirit.

Force Spirits can surpass their alive counterparts. There is quite literally nothing that says otherwise. Plus you had no response to how Sidious, Yoda and several other people are stated to be the most powerful up to that point, putting them above the entirety of the Old Republic.

 

[Travgen]

Let's remember that in general, Marka Ragnos swas definitely much weaker than his prime, since he got weaker overtime in the same manner as Exar Kun. Jedi Academy takes place after the Dark Empire Arc , which Luke's description is described as being in the same realm of power as palpatine.

Tavion planned to give Ragnos an everlasting body with the Scepter. She had already charged it by draining multiple Force nexuses throughout the galaxy [including the Dagobah nexus - powerful enough to counterbalance Yoda's presence - combined with other multiple nexuses], to the point where she could empower and turn an army of non-sensitives into powerful Force-sensitives. Exar Kun's main problem was that he could not keep his spirit from ceasing to exist; he weakened in the sense that he was going nuts, not losing powers. He even stated that he had millennia to practice.

This would mean that an Prime Markos is most definitely above an Dark Empire Luke. This would have drastic ramifications, such as those stated for Vitiate and other such stated rto be comparable to him , if no surpass him, at the time. Also, an Prime Markos was seen in The Old Republic, yet Vitiate is consistently stated to be the strongest force wielder of the decade. I would've normally ignored Jaden Korr scaling to him, but the fact an POST Dark Empire Luke was afraid of an Dark Side Jaden Korr more than implied they are in the Tier 4 range.

It is hard to argue in favor of that when even Garth Ezzar is confirmed to be superior to every ancient Sith Lord.

 

[TheMerchant66]

This is old but Luke only lost to Palpatine because they were on Byss which amped Palpatine and hindered Luke, who was already struggling not to fall to the dark side which weakened him as well.


When Luke and Palpatine fight again, Luke beat him soundly. Leia did NOT amp Luke during the Lightsaber duel, that is a huge misconception. Leia only amped Luke once Palpatine summoned his force storm, although it is confirmed Palpatine gained more power boosts in the Dark Empire sequels.