Sonic perception scaling

[LaserPrecision]

I'm creating this CRT on behalf of @omegabronic, who would like to make the argument that character's who perception blitz Sonic would be 4x faster than his combat/travel speed. The reason they suggest this is because Sonic's perception speed is based on an officially stated multiplier rather than a calc (Sonic being able to react to Metal Sonic's 4x speed increase consistently thus his reactions are treated as 4x his combat speed).

I figured this was a very simple yes or no kind of CRT, so I wanted to put it out to get it over with.

Agree: 1 (@omegabronic)
Neutral: 0
Disagree: 0

 

[Omegabronic]

Thank you, i agree

 

[LaserPrecision]

Thank you, i agree

Np, and counted. Hope you're ready to defend the thread cuz this seems controversial and I'm neutral rn.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

4x Acceleration isn't 4x Speed. That simply means Metal Sonic reaches max speed 4 times faster than Sonic does, how much faster that max speed is would be another factor entirely
In fact, Sonic can still keep up with this with the Super Peel-Out, and most of his reaction feats are done from somewhat far away

Even then, as I said, acceleration isn't one-dimensional speed. A car that can go 0-100 in 5 seconds isn't 4 times faster than a car that can go 0-100 in 20 seconds, you'd obviously not need 4 times the reaction speed to react to the former!
I disagree!

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Agreed.

 

[Ped2018]

Agree for Topaz reasons

 

[LaserPrecision]

4x Acceleration isn't 4x Speed. That simply means Metal Sonic reaches max speed 4 times faster than Sonic does, how much faster that max speed is would be another factor entirely
In fact, Sonic can still keep up with this with the Super Peel-Out, and most of his reaction feats are done from somewhat far away

Even then, as I said, acceleration isn't one-dimensional speed. A car that can go 0-100 in 5 seconds isn't 4 times faster than a car that can go 0-100 in 20 seconds, you'd obviously not need 4 times the reaction speed to react to the former!
I disagree!

I would like to address this as I argued the same for VMO. In most of the material it shows up in, it's stated to increase acceleration. However, it's common in fiction for authors to confuse the two or use them interchangeably. I think this is supported since there's official guides that state that VMO increases speed rather than acceleration, and in-game it makes Metal Sonic faster than Sonic at top speed.
Super Peel Out doesn't mean much consider Super Peel Out is accepted as a speed multiplier here.

Ill count your vote but I did wanna save Omega time in responding to that. I myself am hesitant to apply this CRT (I won't count your vote right away since I'm on mobile atm).

 

[Omegabronic]

4x Acceleration isn't 4x Speed. That simply means Metal Sonic reaches max speed 4 times faster than Sonic does

And sonic can react to said acceleration, thus the rating

how much faster that max speed is would be another factor entirely
In fact, Sonic can still keep up with this with the Super Peel-Out, and most of his reaction feats are done from somewhat far away

Super peel out is a speed amp faster than even the spin dash

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I would like to address this as I argued the same for VMO. In most of the material it shows up in, it's stated to increase acceleration. However, it's common in fiction for authors to confuse the two or use them interchangeably. I think this is supported since there's official guides that state that VMO increases speed rather than acceleration, and in-game it makes Metal Sonic faster than Sonic at top speed.
Super Peel Out doesn't mean much consider Super Peel Out is accepted as a speed multiplier here.

Ill count your vote but I did wanna save Omega time in responding to that. I myself am hesitant to apply this CRT (I won't count your vote right away since I'm on mobile atm).

I never really doubted that it also increases the top speed, I just said that the top speed isn't necessarily 4 times faster than Sonic's top speed, as again, it's one thing to reach a speed faster than actually having better speed at the same rate
We never see that increase in practical terms, and again, Sonic mostly reacts to this from a far enough distance where he normal reaction should compensate, even if we consider it (he does show up from the very end of the screen)

Thank you for considering my vote

One question, these guides that talk about speed specifically, do they give the same 4 times multiplier?

And sonic can react to said acceleration, thus the rating

That's not how reaction speed works, reacting to X acceleration doesn't mean your reaction is as fast as that acceleration, because no matter how you'd like to put his, Sonic's own acceleration isn't even as fast as his top speed, otherwise he would be able to reach it instantly without Super Peel-Out, it takes a few seconds (or in-game milisseconds if we remove cinematic timing and consider his speed) to reach top speed anyway.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I never really doubted that it also increases the top speed, I just said that the top speed isn't necessarily 4 times faster than Sonic's top speed, as again, it's one thing to reach a speed faster than actually having better speed at the same rate
We never see that increase in practical terms, and again, Sonic mostly reacts to this from a far enough distance where he normal reaction should compensate, even if we consider it (he does show up from the very end of the screen)

Thank you for considering my vote

One question, these guides that talk about speed specifically, do they give the same 4 times multiplier?

That's not how reaction speed works, reacting to X acceleration doesn't mean your reaction is as fast as that acceleration, because no matter how you'd like to put his, Sonic's own acceleration isn't even as fast as his top speed, otherwise he would be able to reach it instantly without Super Peel-Out, it takes a few seconds (or in-game milisseconds if we remove cinematic timing and consider his speed) to reach top speed anyway.

I understood your point. My counterpoint was saying the acceleration was used interchangeably with speed in the statement regarding a 4x increase. Because people often say accelerate when they mean move at a certain speed in fictional settings.

You can react to V. Maximum Overdrive from nearly point blank if you're fast enough. Jumping far in advance is optional (I think he waits until Metal is up close in the Generations scene, but can't recall).

I can't remember if it mentions the 4x increase. I don't think it did, but the important thin to note is that it doesn't even mention acceleration iirc. It just says VMO increases Metal's speed. Which should support the idea that acceleration was used interchangeably with speed in the CD manual and other material.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I understood your point. My counterpoint was saying the acceleration was used interchangeably with speed in the statement regarding a 4x increase. Because people often say accelerate when they mean move at a certain speed in fictional settings.

If there's not additional information that proves "acceleration" is being used incorrectly, we should just go with the meaning of the word in my opinion though. I understand you believe there is, I just personally don't consider it to be strong enough to ignore the simplest explanation
You can't excuse some other writer's mistake

You can react to V. Maximum Overdrive from nearly point blank if you're fast enough. Jumping far in advance is optional (I think he waits until Metal is up close in the Generations scene, but can't recall).

That kinda goes against the idea that you can aim dodge based on reaction and that VMO is 4x faster than his own combat speed.
But as you know, that'd lead to circular argument
You shouldn't be able to dodge something point-blank if it's 4 times faster than you, unless you have to cross 4 times less space to dodge it, not Sonic's case though

I can't remember if it mentions the 4x increase. I don't think it did, but the important thin to note is that it doesn't even mention acceleration iirc. It just says VMO increases Metal's speed. Which should support the idea that acceleration was used interchangeably with speed in the CD manual and other material.

Okay, to me at least, I wouldn't take this as evidence
Seems like a connection that doesn't really exist, these are two separate statements, one about speed, one about acceleration, the accel one even containing details not present on the speed one (4x). Statements don't really need to contain the same information across several guides, so there isn't a solid reason to believe acceleration and speed are being used interchangeably as each guide could very well be stating two different truths about the speed.
That it increases Metal Sonic's speed beyond Sonic, which we know it's true - and that it increases his acceleration four times over Sonic's, which is also true, and probably the reason why Metal gets a faster top speed (we also see regular speed being mentioned in the same statement)

I can definitely see your side given how fiction usually works, I just disagree with using what seems to be whataboutism

I believe we both heard each other's point at this point, so I'll resign for further back and forths. I respect your take, while still disagree

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Agree for Topaz reasons

What

 

[Ped2018]

What

You're just my goat

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

You're just my goat

I disagreed with the thread

 

[Ped2018]

I disagreed with the thread

But i agreed with the thread, but i created a scenario in my head where you actually agreed with the thread, and my comment was a response to this scenario where you agreed with the thread. Why, you may ask; well, it just so that i didn't want to disagree with you because you're my GOAT.

 

[LaserPrecision]

If there's not additional information that proves "acceleration" is being used incorrectly, we should just go with the meaning of the word in my opinion though. I understand you believe there is, I just personally don't consider it to be strong enough to ignore the simplest explanation
You can't excuse some other writer's mistake

That kinda goes against the idea that you can aim dodge based on reaction and that VMO is 4x faster than his own combat speed.
But as you know, that'd lead to circular argument
You shouldn't be able to dodge something point-blank if it's 4 times faster than you, unless you have to cross 4 times less space to dodge it, not Sonic's case though

Okay, to me at least, I wouldn't take this as evidence
Seems like a connection that doesn't really exist, these are two separate statements, one about speed, one about acceleration, the accel one even containing details not present on the speed one (4x). Statements don't really need to contain the same information across several guides, so there isn't a solid reason to believe acceleration and speed are being used interchangeably as each guide could very well be stating two different truths about the speed.
That it increases Metal Sonic's speed beyond Sonic, which we know it's true - and that it increases his acceleration four times over Sonic's, which is also true, and probably the reason why Metal gets a faster top speed (we also see regular speed being mentioned in the same statement)

I can definitely see your side given how fiction usually works, I just disagree with using what seems to be whataboutism

I believe we both heard each other's point at this point, so I'll resign for further back and forths. I respect your take, while still disagree

Ig I'll go looking at the scans regarding VMO as there's quite a bit of them.

VMO is 4x Sonic's combat speed. But Sonic can still logically dodge it without it being circular scaling by simply saying Sonic's reactions are above his combat speed. Vs wiki treats the two independent of one another.

It would be weird for a section of a page dedicated to explaining his technique to leave out other applications of it such as a 4x acceleration buff. But again, I'll look for the scan, I don't remember it very clearly.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

You're just my goat

i didn't want to disagree with you because you're my GOAT.

Bro riding his meat like a jet ski

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

VMO is 4x Sonic's combat speed. But Sonic can still logically dodge it without it being circular scaling by simply saying Sonic's reactions are above his combat speed. Vs wiki treats the two independent of one another.

That is impossible
You said point-blank; He needs to move as much, if not more than VMO to dodge it, that's a combat speed feat.

He'd need to start dodging from a further distance than VMO for his reactions to be the driving factor here. VMO is visible most of the time from quite far away, so you can't decisively say Sonic's reactions needs to be 4x his combat speed.
I again present the example of the car going at 200km/h from far away. You can react to that quite easily.

You can't have it both, you can't say Sonic dodges the thing point-blank and then go on to say his combat speed doesn't scale, those are conflicting statements.

It would be weird for a section of a page dedicated to explaining his technique to leave out other applications of it such as a 4x acceleration buff. But again, I'll look for the scan, I don't remember it very clearly.

Of course. If there's a scan saying the speed is 4 times greater, than it's gonna be much easier for you to argue this point, although I'd still disagree fra

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Bro riding his meat like a jet ski

Not the first time I see you misgendering me, bro (at least from what I remember)

Consider this an unofficial warning from myself

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Not the first time I see you misgendering me, bro (at least from what I remember)

Consider this an unofficial warning from myself

I forget to read pronouns so I guess that's completely on me

 

[LaserPrecision]

That is impossible
You said point-blank; He needs to move as much, if not more than VMO to dodge it, that's a combat speed feat.

The reaction page isn't quite clear about the distance between a person and the attacker mattering. But vs wiki dubs ducking out of the way to dodge a car (from an unstated distance) or ducking backwards to dodge a bullet counts as reaction speed. Not combat speed. It does become combat if it becomes multiple movements like dodging dozens of bullets.

On an unrelated note, do you know GodlyCharmander?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

And sonic can react to said acceleration, thus the rating

We don’t give ratings to acceleration. Someone could have infinite acceleration and it wouldn’t be impressive for speed scaling

 

[Omegabronic]

bump