Some questions about speed: infinite, immeasurable and void

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

I should have asked that question some time ago, but the laziness of writing didn't.

A character like Count Bleck for example gets infinite by moving in the void without time and space, and he would haven't only erased all the timelines, but would have made the whole of that never have existed. Meanwhile, other characters such as Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are as immeasurable as being 4D and moving 4-dimensionally. Omega Flowey is immeasurable for having absolute control of space-time, and Asriel is immeasurable for having altered timelines and not be affected by it (Count Bleck would make all timelines never have existed and equally wouldn't be affected by it, I see no difference between him and Asriel at that point).

If we consider that V = S/t (Velocity = Space/time), anything that moves beyond S/t would automatically move beyond V (disregard outliers, I am speaking only of beings that exist independently of the influences of the space-time continuum, as Count Bleck). Ah, first of all, I'm not talking about the characters, I just used them as an example because they were the only ones I could find in this situation. My question is: What makes it move where there is no space-time lower than moving 4-dimensionally where there is space and time (which is what makes people like Dialga, Palkia and Giratina immeasurable)? What makes it move without space-time lower than to exist outside space-time (which, as far as I know, justifies an immeasurable)?

 

[DarkLordofShadows]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am too tired and distracted to answer in-depth, but regrettably some of our profiles have placed immeasurable speed on characters that should only have infinite rating.

You can read the definitions in our Speed page for further information.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

@Ant, this doesn't have much to do with the thread but... don't you feel overwhelmed? You work too hard here.

I already read the page.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I do feel overwhelmed. There is an awful lot of work to do all the time, and I also read lots of news about how the world and my country are collapsing from existential threats. My health is suffering from it.

Okay.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Making a placeholder here as a reminder for me to answer this question.

 

[Antvasima]

@Lina You can simply click the "follow" button in the upper right corner of a thread.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Bump.

 

[Lina_Shields]

There may be a revision regarding Infinite and Immeasurable speed, thus the requirements for the two may change, if slightly.

We may get a better answer for your question the next couple of days.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Okay then.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Mmm, considering the revision happened, what do you guys think would be his tier now?

 

[Antvasima]

Count Bleck should probably have infinite speed, i.m.h.o.

I am uncertain about Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina. If they are rated as immeasurable simply due to being 4-Dimensional, we might have to adjust them.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

The problem I have to understand is not with the characters, it's with the classification itself. What I want to know is not at what level they will stay, what I want to know is why they remain at that level.

I mean, I don't understand why moving in a void where there's no time would be just infinite while moving in 4-D would be immeasurable, since void is the absence of space-time. And why would Asriel be immeasurable while Count Bleck did the same thing that he is infinite.

This is very vague.

 

[Antvasima]

We made a revision of the immeasurable definition, since it made no logical sense for characters with more than 3 geometrical spatial dimensions to automatically move swifter than othervise.

However, there are still likely several profiles that incorrectly use our old standards for immeasurable speed. I created a thread that asked for help with fixing the problem, but nobody seemed interested in helping out.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ant

The new definition is still confusing me.

Here's an example: Edmond Dantes is explicitly stated to be able to escape "the abstract prisons of time and space" and fight with multiple offshoots of himself through space and time as if a time stop were employed.

Do we downgrade him to Infinite just because he's a 3-D character?

 

[Antvasima]

Some spatially 3-D characters can apparently transcend linear time, but I do not know the specifics of this particular case. Perhaps it is best to ask The Living Tribunal1, DontTalk, and DarkLK for information.

 

[Reed_Richards_N0]

Immensurable = Infinite, the System Speed failure :/

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

@Reed

No. Infinite Ôëá Immeasurable on this system.

 

[Antvasima]

Infinite = Can move anywhere instantly, while time literally stands still

Immeasurable = Transcends linear time altogether

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

And almost five centuries later...

Well, returning to the subject, bringing more examples. What is the difference between existing before time and existing after time? Why is before time immeasurable and after time infinite? You may say that before time is to exist before the concept of time, but... why wouldn't after time be too? And why should existence before time mean to exist before the concept of time? What guarantees that this concept didn't exist?

Besides that, characters like Illumina and Creation Trio are immeasurable for being 4D. Why being 4D and moving 4-dimensionally is immeasurable, if moving in the void where there isn't time is only infinite? Why would Count Bleck's feat be different from that of Asriel's and Omega Flowey's? Why would it exist outside the synchrony of time would be only infinite, not immeasurable?

I would very much like to hear the reasons for this, the system seems very confusing.

 

[Antvasima]

Regrettably, plenty of our profiles do not seem to have been appropriately updated after we changed our system. If other staff members are willing to handle this, it would be very appreciated.

I cannot help you much further with explanations than I already have, as I am the wrong person to ask. DarkLK, DontTalk, or TLT1 would be better.

However, again, what is intended with infinite speed is characters that can move when time literally stands still or is nonexistent, whereas immeasurable means transcending linear time altogether, such as possessing more than one dimension of time, or being able to run through the timestream at will.

However, neither rating should rationally have anything to do with the number of geometric spatial dimensions.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Since this is a speed related question thread, i have to really ask this if it's too much trouble for anyone here (especially to Ant, excuse me).

So in the Silverio (Verse) here, it turns out its recent VN of Trinity has characters who can achieve a state of existence superior to our three dimensional world. Now regrettably this is coming off mostly from the ACF but if what i found is correct and all from them, the characters in said state could achieve "immeasurable speeds" due to their higher dimensional state and how the plane of existence they reside in is superior to our normal aspects like space-time and causality.....in speed, i mean. DK if it relates to everything else but...

Anyways i'm likely to get a no on this given our new and recent definition of immeasurable speed (which is, TBQH, harder for me to grasp than the last one), but does attaining a state of being superior to our 3-D world AND all of its aspects like the above count for immeasurable or just a no still?

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

I must agree that moving with time literally stopped denotes infinite speed. However, I don't really think that moving in a stopped time would be the same thing as moving where time doesn't exist.

The definition of transcend is rise above or go beyond the boundaries of. For example, I don't see how we could say that Bleck is limited by time, since the fact that time would completely cease to exist would not in the least affect it. If the definition of transcending is going beyond the limits of, is a being that isn't limited by time automatically transcends time, or am I wrong?

I mean, how would we know if a character transcends time, if not by its state as not being limited by time? So if a being isn't limited to time, it must logically be transcendental to time as is the case with some characters that I mentioed, like Alien X, which to my understanding, should be immeasurable and not infinite.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am extremely tired, but I will try anyway.

@CrossverseCrisis

It depends on what is intended, butfrom a mathematical perspective, the number of geometric spatial dimensions have nothing to do with speed.

@Kevyn Souza

DarkLK would be much better to ask, and I do not have the energy to continue arguing about this, nor are we going to change our standards on your say-so, but as far as I am aware, moving while time stands still is basically the same thing as moving in a void outside of a time-space continuum.

If a character is truly transcendent to the concepts of time and space (including distance) in their entirety however, the speed level would be irrelevant.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Ant: Mmm. So i guess an unknown should put for them, huh? Alright, that's fair enough. Thanks for trying to answer anyways. And sorry for the bother here.

Edit: All i also got from there of them is that space-time and causality for them flows differently than normally (ex. tens of thousands of years can pass for them while in the higher dimension but in the lower realm of the 3-D world, less than an hour at best would have passed). But seeing as i have no way of quantifying them, i guess only an Unknown will have to be put for the time being. But it's fine either way.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Here is the thing, simply transcending the 1st time dimension would make a character immeasureable in speed regardless of the number of spatial dimensions it has.

For infinite speed, a character has to move in zero time or cover infinite distance in finite time.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

@TLT1 Finally! Could you answer the questions I've asked throughout the thread? To emphasize before, what I want to know in itself is not how the standards works (this I already know), what I want to know is why (of the questions I asked).

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

So here is the thing: SImply being 4-D doesn't make you immeasureable in speed. Based on the revision, you have to be beyond the 1st time dimension regardles of your spatial ones. And by being beyond, I mean either not being limited to 1 time dimension or straight out being 2-time dimensional.


What are you questions specifically speaking?

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

• Question 1: What is the difference between existing before time (currently immeasurable) and existing after time (currently infinite)?
  • Question 1.1 [If the answer is that before time there is no concept of time]: Why wouldn't after time be too? And why should existence before time mean to exist before the concept of time? What guarantees that this concept didn't exist?
• Question 2: About moving 4-dimensionally being immeasurable. Answered (If 4-D isn't immeasurable, characters like the Creation Trio and Illumina, who are immeasurable for being 4D, will be downgraded in the future, or am I wrong?)
• Question 3: Why existing outside the synchrony of time would be only infinite, not immeasurable?
• Question 4: Why moving while the time is stopped [where time exists but doesn't flow], would it be the same thing as moving in the void [where time doesn't exist]?
• Question 5: A character who destroys the totality of time and isn't minimally affected by it, even having destroyed the moment in which it was born and the cause of its existence, can be considered transcendental to time?
  • Question 5.1 [If the answer is not]: Why, since the definition of transcending is rise above or go beyond the boundaries of? How would a being of this be limited to time, if time can not minimally affect it?

To emphasize, please don't simply answer "yes", "no", "it is how it works" or "it is not how it works". My question is about the "whys", not the "hows". The reasons for being or not being are the most important.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

1- Existing before time could imply being beyond a linear time dimension (though that might not always be the case). As for existing after time- what do you mean by that, normally speaking time goes on forever, but existing after a time of a reference point does not imply a specific speed at all. If you mean existing outside of time, then that would be immeasureable, but existing after the time of a certain frame does not necessarily make you immeasureable or infinite.

2- The reason creation trio are immeasure is because they transcend linear time/ 1-time dimensional systems.

3- As for being in a timeless void being infinite in speed- that apparently comes from acf wiki, and IDK exactly why they keep that as being infinite, so I can't answer that question.

4- Moving while time is stopped without having any hax means moving in 0-time, which makes you infinite in speed. As for the void part, the acf uses moving in a void as infinte in speed, and IDK why they do that, I did not come up with it.

5- Hmmm well that could be unquantifiable, but not being affected by the erasure of time might either just be hax or being more than 1-time dimensional which might imply the character is immeasure in speed. As for transcending- in this context it means not being limited to 1 time dimensions, that is having more than 1 time dimension, it does not physically means rising in this case.

 

[DontTalk]

To asnwer where timeless void = infinite comes from:

I think the example that started that is GER.

The idea is that if you have a timeline, lets symbolize it like:

...-----A----B------...

with A and B being events and --- being passing time.

Than if someone deletes the time (or spacetime) between A and B it looks like

...-----AB------...

So the events A and B now follow instantly behind each other.

If a being can now move in erased spacetime, than they can move in the part between A and B that was erased.

So that means they can perform action between two events that are directly behind each other or in other words in a timeframe of 0. Hence infinite.


It isn't Immeasurable, because a general transcendence above time isn't necessary. As to say a character like this might still be bound to move towards the right aka future in the timeline.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

@TLT1
Anyway, thank you for the answers.

1. With "after" I mean the cases in which time ceases to exist. To be clear: Can characters such as Time Eater, Solaris, and Count Bleck be considered as existing "outside" time, since they exist even where time no longer exists? If the answer is no, why?
2. Well, when I asked about that, they answered that it's because they're 4-dimensional...
3. I see.
4. Ok.
5. Arceus transcend time and is immeasurable, and didn't require a temporal higher-dimension for it. To what is described and classified, transcending in this context refers to the conventional sense of the word. And in the case of Arceus himself, if time were erased or altered, that would be exactly what would happen to him: Nothing. It seems a common characteristic of who transcends time.

Note: I'm not taking into account PIS (as Eggman moving in the blank void), I'm only considering qualifying cases (like Time Eater, Solaris, Count Bleck). Disregard unquantifiable cases, I mean only cases that are currently considered.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

1- As for time ceasing to exist such cases are those which involve physics. And in those cases, the context is that everything ends and therefore there is no stand to measure time and thats why time ceases to exist in a way. But that is strictly physical.

2- Number of spatial dimensions does not matter here for the immeasureable speed. Specifically it is because dialga is time itself I think.

5- You do not explicitely need to be stated to be have many time dimensions, having more than one time dimension already hints at that.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

1. Yes but... what about the cases I mentioned? They may or may not be considered "outside" of time and why?
2. In that I was always in agreement, but still, the reason they gave me in this thread was strictly "they are 4D".
5. I see.

EDIT: @DontTalk

Wow, I had started writing the other comment before you answered, had not seen your answer. I must say first of all, what you said makes perfect sense. However, it refers to the succession of events, which only applies when there is the flow of time, although it has been partly erased. Deleting a portion of the time between points A and B eliminates some intermediate events and moments between these points, not the axis itself. The same can only happen when the axis still exists, which isn't what I am referring to, about characters like Solaris that would erase the axis of time itself, which would prevent the succession of events and erase the points A and B.

Can you demonstrate that the result would be the same if when the axis itself ceases to exist [which would prevent the succession of events themselves and the existence of points A and B]? In other words, I don't mean when this...:

...--------A----B--------...
... becomes this:

...--------AB--------...
I mean when this...:

...--------A----B--------...
becomes this:


This is the void I mean. Although it is a good example, it only applies when the character moves within the time axis in a null part, while in void, the time axis itself ceases to exist.

 

[Antvasima]

After this is sorted out, I would appreciate if DonTalk writes a footnote explanation for the Speed page.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Well simply put you need to exceed 1 time dimension thats all, if thats not the case, then the character is not immeasureable in speed

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but the question is how we should handle characters that are able to move within a timeless void, by your or DontTalk's approach?

Also, DarkLK replied that he is sick and tired of our speed discussions.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Well, we could treat it as unquantifiable I guess. Because without time or space, you cannot really get speed. However if only time is erased then it can be treated as infinite speed I guess.