Some Mega Man Classic Series Upgrades

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Then the feat isn't 3-A

we don't know it's not universe sized. Because it has galaxies and is called a universe though, it should be

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

pretty sure its called an artificial universe, someone brought it up earlier in here

 

[X_Squared]

Just realized something. Rock beat Bass while he was both in his Super form and being boosted by Evil Energy in MM8. This was done in his base form where there was no Super form or other power-ups to draw from. Other instances of Rock beating stronger characters in base is when he defeated King (who one-shot Proto Man) and defeated Wily Machine 8 (which incapped Duo with a single blast).

So if I'm not mistaken, shouldn't Rock be High 5-A at base and "higher" with Power Gear? Don't know if this would apply to others or cement Rock's status as a top tier character in the Classic Era who's slightly above the rest, something which other verses have noted and distinguished with their characters with top tiers and low tiers. Just a sudden thought.

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Problem is, the universe is made of space and time according to physics.

I’m pretty sure that when it comes to universe creation/destruction feats, we don’t assume that time is affected unless directly stated. That’s how it works here at least.

3-A scaling should probably be left for another thread (if it even needs a thread).

The other stuff in this thread seems to be mostly uncontroversial. The main crux of this thread is the 3-A stuff. I think that it’s fine if we keep it here as the main discussion topic.

Just realized something. Rock beat Bass while he was both in his Super form and being boosted by Evil Energy in MM8. This was done in his base form where there was no Super form or other power-ups to draw from. Other instances of Rock beating stronger characters in base is when he defeated King (who one-shot Proto Man) and defeated Wily Machine 8 (which incapped Duo with a single blast).

I don’t think that Rock should scale to Super Bass because he has been shown to consistently be comparable to base form Bass. It would create a circular scaling chain. It becomes Rock=Bass<Super Bass< Evil Energy Amped Super Bass< Rock. It doesn’t make sense. In later games, Rock has shown to be on par with both Proto Man & Duo so he shouldn’t be upscaled from them either. At best they serve as good skill feats.

 

[Chaos Jester25]

pretty sure its called an artificial universe, someone brought it up earlier in here

Astro man’s dimension isn’t universe sized outright.

There’s also his MegaMan & Bass CD Data that says that he can create Artificial universes.

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Bump

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

the high 5-A is good though,the 3-A tier too,how many staff have cmt so far ?

 

[Chaos Jester25]

the high 5-A is good though,the 3-A tier too,how many staff have cmt so far ?

We have one thread moderator agreement at the moment.

 

[Migue79]

I’ll go ahead and tag a few other staff members.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Starter_Pack

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

We have one thread moderator agreement at the moment.

I haven't agreed with 3-A. I didn't give opinion on that. Count me as neutral.

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Bump

I'm going to start putting the votes in the op.

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Bump

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I’m in a weird…limbo for my agreement with Astro Man. Due to how machinery works, Astro Man by default would have to have an energy output. It’s not some weird magic hax he’s using, he’d have to be using wattage to power the feat, which is matched and surpassed by the Light Numbers and others. Like it’d be one thing if Astro Man was a human magician of some sort, but…

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I’m in a weird…limbo for my agreement with Astro Man. Due to how machinery works, Astro Man by default would have to have an energy output. It’s not some weird magic hax he’s using, he’d have to be using wattage to power the feat, which is matched and surpassed by the Light Numbers and others. Like it’d be one thing if Astro Man was a human magician of some sort, but…

yea, on the other hand, this should be blatantly applicable to hax.
So is probably an outlier?

 

[Chaos Jester25]

I’m in a weird…limbo for my agreement with Astro Man. Due to how machinery works, Astro Man by default would have to have an energy output. It’s not some weird magic hax he’s using, he’d have to be using wattage to power the feat, which is matched and surpassed by the Light Numbers and others. Like it’d be one thing if Astro Man was a human magician of some sort, but…

I wouldn't be super against it being written off as an outlier. Especially, because of its possible effects on the rest of the timeline.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Once again, i don't see why it's an outlier just because it's a high feat.

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Once again, i don't see why it's an outlier just because it's a high feat.

If it's far far higher than everything else in the timeline, then it is an outlier. The only other tier 3 thing in the robot timeline isn't even solidly tier 3. It's a possibly at best. Everything else is low end 4-B.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Honestly more with Tyrano here. High feat =/= outlier and Mega Man the franchise has things well above uni. Just because it's foreign to the timeline doesn't mean it's foreign to the canon.
Doesn't mean I'm in agreement with the feat being that high, and it's common knowledge how I feel about VSB's claiming on outliers.

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Doesn't mean I'm in agreement with the feat being that high,

How high would you say the feat is?

 

[Migue79]

I remember Cal long ago said he don’t believe the celestial bodies within Astro Man’s dimensions to be real. Idk if he still believes that, but I can see why that’d be the case.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

So, assuming this gets scaled to physicals via what Cal said, then:

Pre-Stardroid Keys: High 6-C, likely 3-A

Post-Stardroids: 3-A, far higher with Power Gear

X Era-ZX Era: 3-A

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Once again, i don't see why it's an outlier just because it's a high feat.

Its not an outlier just because its a high feat. Its an outlier because nothing else in the classic timeline comes anywhere close to matching that feat. e scale characters off of consistency and 3-A just isn't consistent

So, assuming this gets scaled to physicals via what Cal said, then:

Pre-Stardroid Keys: High 6-C, likely 3-A

Post-Stardroids: 3-A, far higher with Power Gear

X Era-ZX Era: 3-A

There's no way in hell that 3-A Rock is getting accepted. I know that "just because its a high feat doesn't mean it's an outlier" , but we have consistent planet level feats, it is definitely an outlier for a character to jump rom 5-A to 3-A without undergoing any major upgrades/transformations.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Its not an outlier just because its a high feat. Its an outlier because nothing else in the classic timeline comes anywhere close to matching that feat

Once again, you're saying it's an outlier because it's a high feat. Rock can match, take hits and defeat Astro Man thrice which causes him and his dimension to dissapear in 8, and obviously Astro Man isn't billions of times stronger than Rock. I see nothing in here which would be considered an outlier (specially with the distorting space with sheer AP statements) Also, like Cal said, just because it's foreign in the main canon doesn't make it foreign to the franchise. Nothing contradicts this. About the upgrading part, you can just argue that because Rock is shown to get stronger in power, he eventually reached up that level.

Also, i've already explained why bringing up the 4-B stuff is a wrong thing to argument about when they even have statements such as infinite power and destroying statements of alternate worlds to support it. Or maybe you can just cross scale

Once again, by your logic, we would've downgraded a bunch of characters a long time ago.

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Once again, you're saying it's an outlier because it's a high feat.

Once again, I’m saying it’s an outlier because it’s not consistent with the multiple Planetary Feats we already have.

Once again, you're saying it's an outlier because it's a high feat. Rock can match, take hits and defeat Astro Man thrice which causes him and his dimension to dissapear in 8, and obviously Astro Man isn't billions of times stronger than Rock. I see nothing in here which would be considered an outlier (specially with the distorting space with sheer AP statements)

The feat is done with a generator so it has no reason to scale to Astro Man’s AP. Centaur Flash isn’t warping space on a universal scale. If it was it would’ve killed everything, on the planet.

Nothing contradicts this.

The multiple large planet level calcs we have say otherwise.

About the upgrading part, you can just argue that because Rock is shown to get stronger in power, he eventually reached up that level.

Rock isn’t Sonic. We don’t have any statements that imply that Rock is constantly getting stronger throughout the course of the game.. And there sure aren’t any statements that imply that Rock has grown to become multiple billions(I know the gap between 5-A and 3-A is a lot larger than that. I just know that it’s a billions as the very least) of times stronger in such a short period of time.

Also, i've already explained why bringing up the 4-B stuff is a wrong thing to argument about when they even have statements such as infinite power and destroying statements of alternate worlds to support it. Or maybe you can just cross scale

Saying that Lumine’s feat is casual is flat out wrong. It’s what he does in the last phase of the fight right before he uses his ultimate attack, Paradise Lost

Once again, by your logic, we would've downgraded a bunch of characters a long time ago.

This is a whataboutism. If those verses had consistent 5-A feats and jumped all the way to 3-A off of a singular feat, then that’s a problem with those verses. What happens in those other verses doesn’t pertain to us.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

The feat is done with a generator so it has no reason to scale to Astro Man’s AP.

And Astro Man would've likely had to power it up thanks to what Cal said, and this doesn't really discard the argument of just saying "Astro Man collapses the dimension with his defeat and Rock tanks it"

The multiple large planet level calcs we have say otherwise.

You know this would be an actual AoE fallacy right? Just because these characters can do multiple feats on this scale doesn't mean that it's their limit of power, just what they can do normally, specially considering the fact these were all done casually. Moon level Roshi happens only once and yet we accept that.

Rock isn’t Sonic. We don’t have any statements that imply that Rock is constantly getting stronger throughout the course of the game..

Rock goes from fighting with a weakened King to defeating an amped version of him. And in Super Adventure Rockman, he goes from getting stomped by Ra Thor to suddenly defeating him.

Saying that Lumine’s feat is casual is flat out wrong. It’s what he does in the last phase of the fight right before he uses his ultimate attack, Paradise Lost

It absolutely is casual because it's an attack which Lumine pulls up suddenly and both him and the Hunters are completely unnafected by said attack, WHICH IS THE PARADISE LOST. Once again, your argument is flat out wrong and not usable.

This is a whataboutism. If those verses had consistent 5-A feats and jumped all the way to 3-A off of a singular feat, then that’s a problem with those verses. What happens in those other verses doesn’t pertain to us.

It's not "whataboutism", it's just simple basic logic because you don't understand what an outlier is. DBZ for example has not a single 4-B feat prior to SPC and they're more narratively Planetary and Dwarf Star with calcs, yet that doesn't make it an outlier. This whole argument is just "I don't think Rock is 3-A because i don't want him to be that high", which:

A) Is bad
B) Feats don't care about what you think.

Once again, this:

Rock can match, take hits and defeat Astro Man thrice which causes him and his dimension to dissapear in 8, and obviously Astro Man isn't billions of times stronger than Rock. I see nothing in here which would be considered an outlier (specially with the distorting space with sheer AP statements) Also, like Cal said, just because it's foreign in the main canon doesn't make it foreign to the franchise.

tl;dr

• Rock can fight Astro Man
• Astro Man can create an universe
• The dimension collapses and Rock tanks it
• The Wily Star Ion Cannon can distort space-time with sheer power which can work as supporting evidence
• X has a statement of limitless power and Cyber Peacock is stated to wanting to destroy a world filled with galaxies. Both characters are beyond Astro Man.
• Feat is not an outlier

 

[Chaos Jester25]

And Astro Man would've likely had to power it up thanks to what Cal said, and this doesn't really discard the argument of just saying "Astro Man collapses the dimension with his defeat and Rock tanks it"

It doesn't say anywhere that Astro Man powers the generator. And Cal doesn't even seem to agree with the 3-A end in the first place.

You know this would be an actual AoE fallacy right?

That's not what an AoE fallacy is. It would be an AoE fallacy if i said something like "Rock isn't 5-A because he's not destroying the planet with every buster shot" or something like that. It refers to destructive capacity rather than AP.

Just because these characters can do multiple feats on this scale doesn't mean that it's their limit of power, just what they can do normally, specially considering the fact these were all done casually. .

But the 5-A feats weren't done casually. Duo is someone who takes his job very seriously and I doubt that would hold back while fighting a being who he vies as a threat.

Sunstar tells rock to "Leave, Now" right before he explodes, which implies that the explosion (which was recalced at 5-A) was a threat to Rock.

Rock goes from fighting with a weakened King to defeating an amped version of him. And in Super Adventure Rockman, he goes from getting stomped by Ra Thor to suddenly defeating him.

Rock is no stranger to fighting and defeating opponents stronger than him. His whole fighting style is built around learning and adapting to different fighting styles. Also, Rok has never shown to grow billions of time stronger in such a short time span. It contradicts the events of Mega Man 11, where Rock is stated to be no match for the double gear robot masters (which thanks to the gears, ar 10 times stronger, and 4 times faster than Rock) unless he had a gear on is own. Why didn't he just grow past them since according to you, Rock can just causally grow to become multiple billions of times stronger in a short amount of time. It makes no sense for Rock to be able to do that big of a jump.It absolutely is casual because it's an attack which Lumine pulls up suddenly and both him and the Hunters are completely unnafected by said attack, WHICH IS THE PARADISE LOST. Once again, your argument is flat out wrong and not usable.

Lumine Stuff.

I can admit when I'm wrong. I concede on this point.

It's not "whataboutism" Proceed to bring up more whatbouisms

Based on the fact that you put it in quotes, I don't think you know what a whatboutism is. Saying "oh this verse has it, why can't we have it too" falls under the whatboutism fallacy. If you think those verses have a problem, then its a problem with those verses and shouldn't affect us. If you think that verses don't deserve their ratings, then go make a crt. But it should have no bearings on this one. Different verses have different standards and mechanics.

Tl;dr

1. Rock can fight Astro Man
2. Astro Man's generator(which he has no reason to scale to) can create a universe.
3. Rock has an outlier feat of tanking a dimension collapse
4. The Wily Star hasn't shown to be able to warp space time on a universal scale.
5. X has a singular universal power statement and cyber Peacock's "feat" is incredibly vague and we have no idea how it's done.
6. It is an outlier

 

[TyranoDoom30]

It doesn't say anywhere that Astro Man powers the generator

Considering that it's his generator, it's his main ability and he's a robot, he would likely have to produce energy to make it work.

That's not what an AoE fallacy is.

It is because saying that: "the feat was calculated at 5-A thus it's a contradiction" would be an AoE argument and simply not understanding how outliers and feats work. Just because this character has multiple feats at a tier doesn't mean a higher feat is an outlier, the logic is simply nonsensical. See, because Saitama's Serious Sneeze did far less damage than his Serious Punch and Garou had to dodge it doesn't mean that the 4-A feat is invalid, it's just a case of AP =/= DC

Literally from the outlier page:

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.

But the 5-A feats weren't done casually

And Duo didn't used his full power or was exhausted from the explosion he did.

Sunstar tells rock to "Leave, Now" right before he explodes, which implies that the explosion (which was recalced at 5-A) was a threat to Rock.

Another AoE fallacy. Refer to my Saitama point.

Rock is no stranger to fighting and defeating opponents stronger than him

True.

Also, Rok has never shown to grow billions of time stronger in such a short time span.

This doesn't discard the Ra Thor showcase. You can't ignore stuff because you don't want to see it that way. Wily for example made the Robot Masters in 2 to be far superior versions of the Robot Masters in 1 and yet Rock still can kick their asses and yet again in SAR Gemini Man starts to stomp Rock but Rock once again destroys him mid-fight out of nowhere.

Rock was getting destroyed by Ra Thor, who in turn was treating his attacks like absolutely nothing in the start. This is likely a case of Reactive Evolution for Rock.

It's not "whataboutism" Proceed to bring up more whatbouisms

kinda hilariously pathetic.

Based on the fact that you put it in quotes, I don't think you know what a whatboutism is

No, because you're assuming it's whataboutism when it's just simple comparison. Don't take assumptions out of nowhere. Your logic simply doesn't work.

If you think those verses have a problem, then its a problem with those verses and shouldn't affect us.

Now that i think about it, you're pulling a double standard since you're arguing 3-A Astro Man isn't legit because it happens once (actually twice but whatever) when you think Lumine's feat which happens only once is valid. Also, how about we downgrade Battle Network to Low 2-C as well, after all it's only 1 2-C thus outlier. What a twist!

See why this logic is bad?

Different verses have different standards and mechanics.

and they're no different from Mega Man in their cases.

Astro Man's generator(which he has no reason to scale to)

Explained why he could.

Rock has an outlier feat of tanking a dimension collapse

No it isn't.

The Wily Star hasn't shown to be able to warp space time on a universal scale.

I said it's a supporting evidence, read again.

X has a singular universal power statement and cyber Peacock's "feat" is incredibly vague and we have no idea how it's done.

Both of which support what i bringed up.

It is an outlier

No, it's just that your arguments are bad.

Now that i think about it, Astro Man collapsing the dimension and Rock surviving the dimensional collapse twice is likely more valid for 3-A than Astro Man creating the dimension itself, so uh maybe.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Orrrr maybe the feat itself is actually a lie! MR BEAAAAAAAST!

But i probably digress

 

[Migue79]

I'm actually ok with saying and treating Astro Man's universe isn't a real one (hope my first message implied that I had some doubts of them being real). The space itself is real (like... the dimensional space, ya know), but the celestial bodies inside of it not. I'm not even being sarcastic or anything. I think even a translation of the MM&B Database even mentions how the universe is simulated, which would normally suggest it isn't real.

Now... to be fair, simulations of certain things can be as real as the real things allowing us to treat them as if they were real things, like the simulated worlds inside of the Moon Cell from Fate or -for a more relevant and Mega Man esque example- Galaxy Man's Black Hole Bomb in the Megamix/Gigamix continuity which are both treated as legit things for AP scaling. But... those 2 examples are most definitely exceptions rather than the norm, so it's probs best to see if there's proof that shows they can be treated as real.

Also, forgot to mention, but Astro Man should have Spatial Manipulation in his profile since MM&B also says he can manipulate space. So maybe that should be added. Also, Rock and Bass should probs also get Magic to their profiles since the same text implies Magic Card is literal magic?

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Upon further inspection (and with some help from an offsite user), I agree with the idea of the celestial bodies not being real. He works in a planetarium, a place that makes projections of the night sky. It being an illusion also lines up with his Copy Vision.

Also, forgot to mention, but Astro Man should have Spatial Manipulation in his profile since MM&B also says he can manipulate space. So maybe that should be added. Also, Rock and Bass should probs also get Magic to their profiles since the same text implies Magic Card is literal magic?

I was planning to save the ability related stuff for another thread. But, yeah i guess we could apply those.

 

[Migue79]

Virgin Game Astro Man: Creates dimensional spaces but the celestial bodies are fake.

Chad Gigamix Astro Man: Creates literal 4-D higher-dimensional space that behaves like higher-dimensional space.

… Oh, shit. I think I just spilled some beans for my Megamix/Gigamix Mangas revisions.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Wouldn't that make Astro Man a little arbitrary?

He creates "meteors" and holes from where enemies spawn from, which are clearly real, on top of other holographic projections such as the Alien and Gemini Man's clones also being tangible objects.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

… Oh, shit. I think I just spilled some beans for my Megamix/Gigamix Mangas revisions.

booooo

 

[Migue79]

Wouldn't that make Astro Man a little arbitrary?

He creates "meteors" and holes from where enemies spawn from, which are clearly real, on top of other holographic projections such as the Alien and Gemini Man's clones also being tangible objects.

I mean... not... really? I feel like the series goes out of its way to show what hologram/pseudo-insert item/enemy can be treated as real by giving them feats/showings/statements like that, and then doing the contrary to things that can't be treated as real. All the examples you listed here have the former. And the series does have a few of the latter, like those projector enemies from Galaxy Man's stage where they just... project fake blocks and you literally fall through them (**** them btw). And you also got the Copy Robots from MM3 in which 2 of them are holograms and are intangible iirc (I could be poorly misremembering the fight tho). So... Yeah. Kinda links to what I said about simulations & shit in my previous message I feel.

Hope anything I've said here makes sense... lol

 

[SonicBayo1999]

I agree

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Bump.

 

[Rokim21]

Where did that Power Gear = 10x multiplier come from tho?

 

[Nostredam]

Astro Man

I believe his AP section should say either “ 4-A with Pocket Dimension Creation" or "3-A with Pocket Dimension Creation" My reasoning for this is pretty simple. Astro Man creates an alternate dimension with a starry sky in his fight. This starry sky is not an illusion and was not created by the machine in the background. It was confirmed to be an alternate dimension made by Astro Man himself in his Robot Master Field Guide entry. There’s also his MegaMan & Bass CD Data that says that he can create Artificial universes. The manual for Mega Man & Bass says he does it with an Alternate Dimension Generator. It disappears when Astro is defeated, further proving it wasn’t created by the device in the background.This should not scale to anyone else for obvious reasons. It would be a huge outlier for the Classic Series characters.

I disagree with that. While at first glance this seems an actual cosmic creation feat, the Japanese Data in Astro Man's description from Rockman & Forte explains that his dimensions are an simulated universe, thus, they are only simulating a universe (virtually speaking), not replicating its actual properties:

He can control dimensions and create a simulated universe. He is the world champion of hide-and-seek.

Besides that, I agree with the CRT.

 

[Chaos Jester25]

Where did that Power Gear = 10x multiplier come from tho?

In Super Adventure Rockman. Ra Moon's devil was able to absorb a combined attack from 10 robot masters. Rock later managed to overwhelm the Black Devil's absorption with the Double Rock Buster. Which implies that the DRB is superior to the combined power of 10 robot masters.

In MM11, Dr. Light claims that Rock wouldn't stand a chance against the Double Gear amped robot masters. This means that the Double Gear amped robot masters are logically superior to Rock as well as his Double Rock Buster.