Some Jojo profiles

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Why is Giorno given MFTL reactions? I don't recall him having any FTL feats. His 8C rating is from damaging BS and fighting SF but he never actually harmed or took blows from SF and BS has no AP feats.

Why is Bruno MFTL and is scaled to KC and Giorno? He never kept up with KC and Giorno is FTL for fighting Bruno.

Killer Queen is Building level for figthing Crazy Diamond but it never physically damaged it physically.

Josuke is Building level+ for tanking CD's blows but he blocked with CD so he shouldn't scale.

Jolyne's Building level+ rating is from a .7 ton feat and her speed rating is from tagging MIH Pucci with a knife while he was distracted and fighting whitesnake who 'blitzed' Jotaro by attacking him from behind.

There's a bit of circular scaling on some profiles too.

 

[Chariot190]

Essentially scales from Chariot through King Crimson and SF and from SP through Sabbath and Echoes.

Bruno tags King Crimson and manages to make it so it literally couldnt react a few times, Sex Pistols and Spice Girl as well. Of which King Crimson is faster than Chariot.

Yes because they fought, he's a bit weaker but not by much, still traded multiple blows and deflected CD's punches. Till the end at least.

He actually didnt block with CD, idk why he didnt but he didnt, he took it straight to the gut.

There's no circular, it's just worded poorly, it's more of a scaling chain than a circular chain. Part 5 speed comes from Chariot, which in turn comes from King Crimson for reacting to and beating Chariot, in which the main Part 5 cast all reacted to King Crimson. Plus Echoes Act 3, in which Black Sabbath reacted and nearly blitzed Echoes Act 3, yet Giorno reacted to it and even jumped over it's stealth grab one time.

Killer Queen is building for fighting Crazy Diamond and casually defeating Echoes Act 3. Capable of exchanging numerous blows, blocking and deflecting (in the final case, requires actually having comparable AP, otherwise deflecting would be impossible as you wouldnt be able to change the blows trajectory).

Black Sabbath is Building for crushing GEs legs and strangling Echoes Act 3. Of which GE is building for fighting Sticky on equal ground, who could land a slight blow on King Crimson, who could ******* gore Peak Chariot.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

How are Echoes and Sabbath MFTL and why do they scale to SP and SC?

Bruno never used pure speed to tag KC he caught it off guard twice through his zippers not by being fast enough and it could still react.

He never injured CD. Blocking punches would be his durability not AP.

SF never was portrayed as comparable to KC Bruno spent most of the fight getting stomped due to Epitaph and time erasure.

Echoes is 8C for taking hits from KQ who is 8C for beating Echoes? KQ blocked the punches though which isn't AP.

BS crushed GE's legs because of Act 3's gravity not by it's own AP as said by Koichi. GE never fought SF on equal grounds. Bruno ran from the train after GE threw one punch and later easily blocked GE's punches with SF.

 

[Chariot190]

Echoes is comparable to Crazy Diamond in speed who scales directly from Star Platinum and Black Sabbath is stated to be straight up faster than GE while in the shadows in which GE backscales from Chariot.

He actually did, he used his zipper to avoid a punch from King Crimson while he was in mid punch, thus dodging the blow, and that's just one of the times off the top of my head. Then we got Sex Pistols forcing King Crimson to block and Spice Girl ******* with King Crimson as well. There's multiple times of characters either blowcking, dodging or hitting King Crimson. Who in turn scale to other characters. But yes, SF specifically has reacted to King Crimson. Even Bruno himself has reacted to King Crimson, even thinking to himself while King Crimson was mid attack.

Deflecting his punches would be AP, you quite literally cant deflect a punch without having comparable AP. You can survive getting hit by car but that means you have the durability to do so but if you deflect the car and completely change it's trajectory then you have comparable AP. Not withstanding.

Nobody said SF was on equal ground with King Crimson, just that he could inflict damage. SF is most definitely weaker but he still knocked the wind out of King Crimson, created a visible indent with his attack and forced him to let go upon getting elbowed by Sticky Fingers. Even the sneak attack you brought up knocked his head the side and stunned him for a split second creating a visible indent on his face (although the blood was from a zipper, not the blow itself). That's direct scaling. Weaker yes, but not so weak he literally can't harm him, as he did.

Because Killer Queen is capable of fighting a casual CD in cqc even if he's on the losing end? Even managed to knock and sweep CD off his feet. (Also nearly overpowered Echoes' Grav Manip, which if it's enough to be 8-C, then KQ physically overpowered a 8-C technique).

Given I cant check because ******** is being fucky and is only oading half a chapter at a time, it is explicitly stated elsewhere that while within shadows, Black is stronger and faster than GE, and checking the anime instead because I cant check the manga, no, the gravity manip made it so that GE couldnt escape nor could Black Sabbath actually move but Black Sabbath was what nearly crushed his legs with his death grip (Actually as pointed out by Koichi, Black Sabbath shouldnt even be able to curl its fingers anymore, ergo, even if it was 100% only the grav manip that harmed GE, Blac Sabbath was directly shown to overpower the grav manip with its grip and thus is stronger than the grav manip, so it's a moot point). Koichi was gonna undo it so Giorno could escape not to stop the damage (well that too but to a lesser extent than you'd think), Giorno said no, because even if he cant escape, neithr can Black Sabbath now and that's perfect opportunity to kill it.

Uh what? GE and SF had an exchange of blows and fought on par for like ten seconds. They even directly punch each other's fists mid punch and are equal. Ergo if SF could cause minor damage to King Crimson, so can GE as he's equal with SF.

 

[Chariot190]

Also inb4 minor damage to King Crimson doesnt count, minor damage is a lot more than what King Crimson took when he ripped Polnareff in half and caved Chariot's skull in.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

What makes Echoes comparable to CD in speed? How does GE backscale from Chariot? Did he ever react to or tag Diavolo on his own?

Are you referring to when Bruno unzipped his arm while Diavolo was trying to break it? That wasn't a speed feat since Diavolo was taking it slow instead of violently bending it. KC blocked cause it was midair. SG never reacted too KC she just reacted to Mista's shots an softened them.

I concede on KQ's AP.

i never argued SF's AP as 8C I was arguing it's speed.

What makes Echoes' 3 freeze 8C? KQ overpowering it is lifting strength and GE's legs starting to get crushed doesn't mean much since his 8C rating is in question cause he never was portrayed as comparable to SF (Bruno even casually deflects his punches with one hand from SF).

Koichi in the manga specifically says Giorno's legs will break under the weight before it lets go (BS is also stated to be an A in power in shade and I know stand stats are iffy but yes it should e physically stronger than GE). Crushing with your grip is also LS since I've seen crushing by grip be used for LS calcs. All BS's AP justifications are just LS. GE doesn't have proper reasoning to be 8C since SF never even touched it.

The scene you're referring to a scene that only happened in the anime. Their fight on the train the manga consists of Bruno going for a punch with some SF help, GE punches Bruno's arm, Bruno tries to attack again but get's punched in the chest and has his perception messed up.

 

[Chariot190]

>What makes Echoes comparable to CD in speed? How does GE backscale from Chariot? Did he ever react to or tag Diavolo on his own?

The fact they attacked BTD at the same speed, the fact Koichi can react and perceive CD yet had trouble keeping up with his own Stand who he was floored by it's new speed? Giorno has also reacted to basically every character worth note of in Part 5, yes even SF and King Crimson. In fact he manages to land a hit on Bruno before SF can block it towards the end of the fight, lands 3 blows to his chest plus the extendo punch. Also Sex Pistols is kinda explicitly at least around King Crimson and SF, and GE has fought alongside Sex Pistols and is shown reactions and speed that against enemies they both fought together to warrant scaling to Sex Pistols. Doesnt need to react or tag Diavolo on his own, he just needs to react or tag a character that somehow scales to King Crimson or a character who did react or tag King Crimson, which he has. (Also yeah GE has reacted to King Crimson but barely, he noticed him mid attack and went to counter but it was to late by then and got his arm torn).

>Are you referring to when Bruno unzipped his arm while Diavolo was trying to break it? That wasn't a speed feat since Diavolo was taking it slow instead of violently bending it. KC blocked cause it was midair. SG never reacted too KC she just reacted to Mista's shots an softened them.

Holy shit, no I just said no I wasnt talking about that scene. I'm talking about when King Crimson erased time, threw his blow, time resumed and Bruno used his zipper to not only react to but escape the killing blow. In which Bruno even says somethings while King Crimson was mid attack.

>i never argued SF's AP as 8C I was arguing it's speed.

Yes except SF being 8-C backscales to GE, which you were arguing. Or Echoes or whatever.

>What makes Echoes' 3 freeze 8C? KQ overpowering it is lifting strength and GE's legs starting to get crushed doesn't mean much since his 8C rating is in question cause he never was portrayed as comparable to SF (Bruno even casually deflects his punches with one hand from SF).

Being able to harm 8-C characters? If what you said was true in that it was the grav manip that harmed GE, then said grav manip is capable of harming 8-C characters and even if it aint, Black Sabbath was able to harm Echoes thus overpowering it without taking damage is both lifting and AP. He blocked a punch casually from GE, not multiple.

>Crushing with your grip is also LS since I've seen crushing by grip be used for LS calcs. All BS's AP justifications are just LS. GE doesn't have proper reasoning to be 8C since SF never even touched it.

You do realize that being able to harm a 8-C wether it be through lifting strength or not, is still AP? Also grip strength isnt lifting strength unless done in such a way that'd it equate to, well, lifting.

>The scene you're referring to a scene that only happened in the anime. Their fight on the train the manga consists of Bruno going for a punch with some SF help, GE punches Bruno's arm, Bruno tries to attack again but get's punched in the chest and has his perception messed up.

You mean the anime that Araki had involvement with this time opposed to the previous parts? He supervised it and actually was behind a lot, if not all the new added scenes, especially the flashbacks like Fugo and the Hitmen Team. Also I'd like to note that GE did much more damage to Bruno then Stands such as Oasis, who he took direct blows from, with said punch you brought up from GE slicing Bruno's arm open, but that's another topic entirely.


But fine, assuming we dont wanna treat GE and SF as being comparable, GE still pummled Black Sabbath and damaged it, in which Black Sabbath could choke out Echoes Act 3 who in turn could take blows from Killer Queen. Ergo I guess GE is backscaling from CD via virtue of being visibly a bit stronger than Echoes. At least till we get Bruno's durability looked at given the amount of times he's tanked blows from characters like Secco.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

They didn't attack BTD at the same time, Josuke didn't even attack and just told them to not let him use BTD, Koichi also attacked in time cause Kira spent time talking about his ability rather than activating it. CD's speed is also in contention mind you. When he tore off his arm? How are Sex Pistols comparable to KC? Giorno turned and had his arm ripped off that isn't inclination of him being comparable to KC.

You never said you weren't referring to that. Bruno already started zipping himself up before KC even got to take a swing since he intended to hit the pillar and pull himself the whole time.

GE is never shown to be physically comparable to SF and Act 3 has no AP feats.

BS never harmed echoes he only choked it out and even then Koichi could speak just fine and never even displayed trouble breathing and BS took no damage cause he attacked Koichi from behind. He did block multiple it was after Bruno hid in that kid GE does a muda muda with one arm and SF blocks all of it.

I've seen crushing be used for a lifting strength calc and staff accepted it I could link it to you if you want. BS never harmed any stand with it's grip, period Koichi specifically sites his own stand for doing it.

The anime still contradicts scenes from the manga, if we took it as canon over the manga we'd have to conclude SP is much strongger than The World since it took awakened Dio working with The World some time to overpower SP with the Road Roller. If Giorno did more damage he must be stronger than Oasis which means he's much stronger than SF (even though the anime you cite as canon says SF is stronger than GE).

BS never harmed Echoes through choking.

 

[Chariot190]

>They didn't attack BTD at the same time, Josuke didn't even attack and just told them to not let him use BTD, Koichi also attacked in time cause Kira spent time talking about his ability rather than activating it. CD's speed is also in contention mind you. When he tore off his arm? How are Sex Pistols comparable to KC? Giorno turned and had his arm ripped off that isn't inclination of him being comparable to KC.


Yes they did? The first time they encountered it they all came out and begin attacking at the exact same time with CD, The Hand, and Act 3 all being comparable in speed with their attacks. You have a real issue with confusing scenes with each other. How is CD's speed in contention? Dude is so fast Jotaro barely had time to react even giving Jotaro the sweats saying he had to stop time to actually dodge the blow otherwise he would of got decked in he face and Jotaro has on record stated Crazy Diamond's speed is extremely impressive, after Angelo I think. GE explicitly noticed King Crimson going in for the attack, Pol yelled for Giorno to look behind him as King Crimson was going in for the attack, GE began turning around to counter and bam, the he lost his arm. GE still managed to move and turn around while King Crimson was mid attack (Plus GE has reacted to SF, Sex Pistols, Spice Girls, Mista (Who actually reacted to King Crimson too)? King Crimson goes out, throws his punch, GE notices it and goes to retaliate but does not. GE still reacts to King Crimson in the same amount of time it took him to finish his attack. Sex Pistols is fast enough to where King Crimson was forced to either pick up the arrow or block because he didnt have enough time to do both as well as having enough time to knock the arrow away from King Crimson before he had time to gather himself again, forcing King Crimson to use a corpse to block Sex Pistols and Sex Pistols has outpaced SF at least twice in Grateful Dead and Rolling Stone arcs, explicitly so, stopping SF mid attack and Ithick outright outpacing it in the former.

>You never said you weren't referring to that. Bruno already started zipping himself up before KC even got to take a swing since he intended to hit the pillar and pull himself the whole time.

I actually did, you asked if I was referring to that, I said no and said He actually did, he used his zipper to avoid a punch from King Crimson while he was in mid punch, thus dodging the blow. Clarifying no I was not talking about that, yet you somehow missed that. Uh what, i'd do you got to actually, well, read or watch it again, Bruno didnt start zipping it till after King Crimson threw his punch, in fact King Crimson was already mid punch before time even began again and it wasnt till after the fact that time began did Bruno opt to zip it to escape.

Actually two instances in that sequence actually, Bruno's sneak attack was in the middle of King Crimson throwing a punch (With Bruno even yelling Now! Sticky Fingers! after King Crimson begins throwing his punch with SF connecting first) and zipping trick he used to escape, King Crimson throws his punch, Bruno says I wasnt aiming for you then begins to zip away, not before but after King Crimson begins attacking. That's two instances within a few pages/seconds of each other where Bruno intercepts and reacts to King Crimson twice.

>BS never harmed echoes he only choked it out and even then Koichi could speak just fine and never even displayed trouble breathing and BS took no damage cause he attacked Koichi from behind. He did block multiple it was after Bruno hid in that kid GE does a muda muda with one arm and SF blocks all of it.

Choking someone out is harming someone dude. And given Giorno had to come save his ass, kinda suggests Echoes wasnt able to actually escape by himself, ergo Black Sabbath>Echoes in strength given it overpowered Echoes and restrained it. Yes except that blocking wasnt casual, they were already serious at that point. And werent you the one not awhile back suggesting that blocking has no bearing on one's AP?

>I've seen crushing be used for a lifting strength calc and staff accepted it I could link it to you if you want. BS never harmed any stand with it's grip, period Koichi specifically sites his own stand for doing it.

And ive seen instances were the exact opposite is true and lifting strength can still be used for AP, it isnt mutually exclusive, if you harm someone with your lifting strength you have AP comparable to said durability, lifting strength or not. In fact lifting strength can actually be used to calculate AP. While he sites his own Stand for doing it he also specifically points out Black Sabbath is overpowering the grav manip with its own strength thus why he wouldnt let go.

>The anime still contradicts scenes from the manga, if we took it as canon over the manga we'd have to conclude SP is much strongger than The World since it took awakened Dio working with The World some time to overpower SP with the Road Roller. If Giorno did more damage he must be stronger than Oasis which means he's much stronger than SF (even though the anime you cite as canon says SF is stronger than GE).

It doesnt contradict it though, that's the thing, when it does contradict the manga, then by all means yeah it isnt usable but if Araki had involvement and it wasnt contradicted, well it may was well be Araki himself that wrote it. Also we actually do treat Star Platinum as much stronger then The World and use DIO+The World road roller combo. Nah, it'd just mean SF, GE and Bruno for the most part, while here's a bit of discrepancy, are obviously still capable of fighting without getting ohko'd and doing some damage to each other, with Secco being at the top followed by Bruno then GE but barely for the latter. Yes, one can still be stronger and fight on equal footing, the strength difference doesnt have to be huge, it aint like he's several times stronger, just a bit.

>BS never harmed Echoes through choking.

Came damn close to it, and now that ******** is up again meaning now I can actually check, I can safely say for certain Black Sabbath is physically stronger than Echoes regardless given he couldnt escape it's grasp.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Could you give me the scene then? I genuinely don't remember them all sending their stands out to fight BTD. Jotaro never remarked CD was insanely fast when they fought and only complemented his power and that's directly contradicted by Josuke saying Jotaro is way stronger than him. That difference in speed is further supported by SP stomping KQ wile Jotaro is heavily injured but CD and KQ can exchange blows and dodge eachother. So someone turning while a person is about to attack and being unable to counter in any way somehow makes them comparable? SG never reacted to KC and niether did Sex Pistols, they were shot at him and he deflected while he was midair unless you're telling me KC moving Mista's body is faster than Sex Pistols. Koichi wasn'yt injured or showing any difficulty breathing. All that scene shows is BS has greater lifting strength that had nothing to do with AP. Bruno blocked and slapped away his punches. You've proven it's AP to me so why are you acting like it isn't now just cause it doesn't fit your narrative? BS overpowering the weight on himself (which he didn't do casue he couldn't even move) is still lifting strength, for example if you place a rock on character A who is 8B and they get crushed and 8C character with high enough lifting strength can move it and they won't be 8B. If we treat SP as much stronger than The World why is it listed as s;lightly weaker than SP and is 8C+ (unless The World has the 8C+ rating in which case SP should be High 8C due to being much stronger and being able to destroy it with a punch and donut it). Then why are you trying to say Giorno scales to Secco he never clashed fists with Bruno in the manga, gets his punches defleceted and slapped away and is stated to be weaker in the anime you cite as canon. He came close to hurting Echoes based on the fact he retsrained him? The simple fact is this: he didn't harm Echoes at all.

 

[Chariot190]

I really dont have time to play 20 questions again, you could always just check the source instead of questioning everything when the answer's exist within the manga if you just look.

Could you really not bother to check the very chapter I said it happened in? I said he said it after Angelo, yet you somehow assumed that it was elsewhere. You've done this multiple times. Another issue you have is not understanding one character can be stronger and faster but not by a literal billion times. Yes Star Platinum is faster and stronger. But CD is close enough to where CD could break through Star Platinum's guard, forced Jotaro to use time stop to avoid his blow given Star Platinum or him couldnt block/dodge in time and CD attacking Angelo before Jotaro could even finish his sentence, with Jotaro commenting on it's insane speed, in which the only other time he did that was with Chariot and The World. Also Kira reacts to Star Platinum's initial stealth blow, he just has trouble keeping up when Star Platinum goes berserk on his ass and proceeds to not even give him the chance to do even that. But here's the one scene, lucky you I had that chapter open already.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I didn't question the scene with CD I was talking about BTD but ok.

 

[Chariot190]

Also Echoes reacts to a stomp from KQ in SHA, so add that onto the list. Anyway you picked a bad time to pick this back up, I'm about to go to sleep.