Some clarifications on the standard assumptions of Tier 2 and above

[Tanin_iver]

There are some stuff about the standards that I feel aren't clearly elaborated on so I want some clarifications on what are the assumptions involved:

1. Are the temporal dimensions considered physical in nature, as it seemed to me that way considering that we assumed them to be like uncountably infinite 3D(or n-D) snapshots of the physical universe. In terms of AP specifically, do we consider something like (3 spatial + 2 temporal)dimensions the same as (4 spatial + 1 temporal)dimensions?

2. Regarding 2-C and above feats how are the characters or their feats treated. Like are the characters assumed to make an omnidirectional blast that can cover the 5D distance between the universes, so like do the characters have non-zero 5D AP in some form or range to affect 5D structures? Or are the characters assumed to use some form of Dimensional travel like portals to deliver their attacks to the other universes? What about characters who can merge or split universes by moving them in their 5D spatial axis?

3. Do the characters only get greater range (and does this range equates to normal attacks) due to more universes because the characters just get 4D AP supposedly, even tho Low 2-C already is infinite 4D AP and range(what range are they even getting if they are already infinite). Or do they get 5D higher dimensional range due to being capable of affecting beyond the scope of a infinite 4D space-time(Low 2-C).

4. What is the distance between universes assumed to be in cases of 2-C or above structures? Is it equidistant or non-equidistant from each other?

5. If distances between universes are assumed to be non-equidistant, then what kind of distances can be assumed? Can universes be literally infinitesimal/zero distance basically right next to each other? Can universes be infinite distance away from each other?

I might have some more questions but these were the first few that came to my mind.
As these are mostly based on the assumptions I'd prefer the staff evaluating Tier 2 and above to clarify what are the assumptions they take into account while indexing such feats as these aren't directly elaborated on any page and there feels like gaps in the explanations.

EDIT: Adding some more questions

6. A character who can destroy a higher dimensional finite sized object say 1 m^4 in all sides have infinitely more power than a High 3-A character? Is the higher dimensional object considered infinitely more durable than a High 3-A object?

7. Similar to question 6, a character who can destroy a finite sized object say 1 m^3 in all sides and also say 1 second worth of time from the timeline containing the object. Will it have infinitely more power than a High 3-A character?

8. How about if we compare erasing 1 second (or any amount of finite time) of the entire space-time(not just the object) by a character, is it infinitely stronger than a High 3-A character?

9. There is a character with say 5D spatial HDE. It has energy projection attacks that have a range of trillions of light years. Will this range be applicable for all 5 axes(x, y, z, t, w)?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

1. Are the temporal dimensions considered physical in nature, as it seemed to me that way considering that we assumed them to be like uncountably infinite 3D(or n-D) snapshots of the physical universe. In terms of AP specifically, do we consider something like (3 spatial + 2 temporal)dimensions the same as (4 spatial + 1 temporal)dimensions?

Spatial dimensions hold the matter that forms our physical universe. Time, on the other hand, is a sequence of events or changes. Each infinitesimal passage of time has countless nuances, creating uncountably infinite snapshots. Destroying time means destroying these snapshots. However, time is also the concept that creates these snapshots in the first place, so it's not really a physical thing.

2. Regarding 2-C and above feats how are the characters or their feats treated. Like are the characters assumed to make an omnidirectional blast that can cover the 5D distance between the universes, so like do the characters have non-zero 5D AP in some form or range to affect 5D structures? Or are the characters assumed to use some form of Dimensional travel like portals to deliver their attacks to the other universes? What about characters who can merge or split universes by moving them in their 5D spatial axis?

The distance between universes in a verse is unknown unless specified. If a character is said to have a 5D Omnidirectional Blast that can span the distance between universes, they won't gain any AP unless that blast also affects something that's 5D. It's like the difference between shooting a bullet across a road versus a bullet that also destroys the road it crosses.

Of course, if the blast is stated to shake or destroy everything it touches or something along those lines, it could qualify for 5D AP, given the right context.

3. Do the characters only get greater range (and does this range equates to normal attacks) due to more universes because the characters just get 4D AP supposedly, even tho Low 2-C already is infinite 4D AP and range(what range are they even getting if they are already infinite). Or do they get 5D higher dimensional range due to being capable of affecting beyond the scope of a infinite 4D space-time(Low 2-C).

Characters gain greater range as because their power crosses the unknown distances between universes and timelines. This results in Universal, Universal+, Multiversal, and Multiversal+ Ranges. The separation between these ranges helps differentiate the various tiers. However, it's important to note that while the characters' powers cross the space between universes, they do not actually affect that space.

4. What is the distance between universes assumed to be in cases of 2-C or above structures? Is it equidistant or non-equidistant from each other?

Unknown unless specified in verse.

5. If distances between universes are assumed to be non-equidistant, then what kind of distances can be assumed? Can universes be literally infinitesimal/zero distance basically right next to each other? Can universes be infinite distance away from each other?

As I mentioned above.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Spatial dimensions hold the matter that forms our physical universe. Time, on the other hand, is a sequence of events or changes. Each infinitesimal passage of time has countless nuances, creating uncountably infinite snapshots. Destroying time means destroying these snapshots. However, time is also the concept that creates these snapshots in the first place, so it's not really a physical thing.

Alright, also what about the second part. Are both types of Low 1-C comparable in AP according to wiki standards?

The distance between universes in a verse is unknown unless specified. If a character is said to have a 5D Omnidirectional Blast that can span the distance between universes, they won't gain any AP unless that blast also affects something that's 5D. It's like the difference between shooting a bullet across a road versus a bullet that also destroys the road it crosses.

Of course, if the blast is stated to shake or destroy everything it touches or something along those lines, it could qualify for 5D AP, given the right context.

The blast is indeed affecting/interacting something 5D tho, the entire space across which the universes are displaced is 5D.
A bullet and a road is 3D and the bullet is affecting the air above the road. If it touches the road it will affect the road as well.

Characters gain greater range as because their power crosses the unknown distances between universes and timelines. This results in Universal, Universal+, Multiversal, and Multiversal+ Ranges. The separation between these ranges helps differentiate the various tiers. However, it's important to note that while the characters' powers cross the space between universes, they do not actually affect that space.

To cross the distance between universes, it needs to travel in the 5th dimension separating the space-times tho, whether they affect the space or not is a different matter.
The ranges they specify literally have number of universes, which comes to the next point of my question

Unknown unless specified in verse.

As I mentioned above.

If the range ratings works on the basis of number of universes, than the universes being equidistant makes more sense as the default assumption. While if we take it as unknown, then a 2-C verse can be greater than a 2-B verse.

 

[Arceus0x]

Regarding the inter-universe space
Basically we assume it is at least 4D, and the space also gets destroyed between the two destroyed universes, thus making it 2-C and not just Low 2-C*2.
For Low 1-C you need to destroy a 5D universe or space that is universal or larger in sheer size due to pocket dimension rules not allowing lower sizes.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Alright, also what about the second part. Are both types of Low 1-C comparable in AP according to wiki standards?

Yes.

The blast is indeed affecting/interacting something 5D tho, the entire space across which the universes are displaced is 5D. A bullet and a road is 3D and the bullet is affecting the air above the road. If it touches the road it will affect the road as well.

Someone's power traveling across a 5D Space does not count as significantly affecting it. Yes, the bullet is affecting the road, but not significantly enough to scale to it.

To cross the distance between universes, it needs to travel in the 5th dimension separating the space-times tho, whether they affect the space or not is a different matter.
The ranges they specify literally have number of universes, which comes to the next point of my question

The spaces between universes are unknown because there is no guarantee all verses treat them the same. For example, some verses acknowledge a void is separating and containing various universes, so it could qualify as a 5D Structure. However some don't mention this, and others say that the distance is merely infinite. It's all based on the context of the verse, and case by case, there is no one answer that fits all scenarios.

If the range ratings works on the basis of number of universes, than the universes being equidistant makes more sense as the default assumption. While if we take it as unknown, then a 2-C verse can be greater than a 2-B verse.

They can't be equidistant because we don't know the distance. Trying to assign an arbitrary value to something that changes across fiction is pointless, it's best to be treated as unknown by default, and changed based on the context the verse provides.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Regarding the inter-universe space
Basically we assume it is at least 4D, and the space also gets destroyed between the two destroyed universes, thus making it 2-C and not just Low 2-C*2.

I understood the part about why it is 2-C and not Low 2-C*2. But, can you please elaborate on this, like won't the space be at least 5D to accommodate spatio-temporally separated universes or is 4D enough and how?

For Low 1-C you need to destroy a 5D universe or space that is universal or larger in sheer size due to pocket dimension rules not allowing lower sizes.

I am aware of this, but still thank you.

Someone's power traveling across a 5D Space does not count as significantly affecting it. Yes, the bullet is affecting the road, but not significantly enough to scale to it.

I know, but I am not exactly talking about significantly affecting, I am just asking if a 2-C or above character can affect all 5 axes(x, y, z, t, w) with their omnidirectional Tier 2 and above attacks or have the range or dimensionality to affect all the 5 axes.

The spaces between universes are unknown because there is no guarantee all verses treat them the same. For example, some verses acknowledge a void is separating and containing various universes, so it could qualify as a 5D Structure. However some don't mention this, and others say that the distance is merely infinite. It's all based on the context of the verse, and case by case, there is no one answer that fits all scenarios.

They can't be equidistant because we don't know the distance. Trying to assign an arbitrary value to something that changes across fiction is pointless, it's best to be treated as unknown by default, and changed based on the context the verse provides.

I agree, but the wiki already assigns range based on the number of universes without taking into account the distances between them, like Low Multiversal, Multiversal, Multiversal+ etc. Which is why my question was directed at the staff as to what assumptions they take by default while indexing across various verses. If we go by the wiki's style of range rating, then equidistant universes makes sense because more number means more range, if we don't then we may have to rethink the way we handle range for such Tier 2 and above characters.
Also if infinite distance between them, then aren't they basically Low 1-C at that point as they are way beyond the distance of significantly affecting(which is universal distance)?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I know, but I am not exactly talking about significantly affecting, I am just asking if a 2-C or above character can affect all 5 axes(x, y, z, t, w) with their omnidirectional Tier 2 and above attacks or have the range or dimensionality to affect all the 5 axes.

If they have 5D Range, then they can attack something that is 5D. It's just it won't have much of an effect cause their potency is too low.

I agree, but the wiki already assigns range based on the number of universes without taking into account the distances between them, like Low Multiversal, Multiversal, Multiversal+. Which is why my question was directed at the staff as to what assumptions they take by default while indexing across various verses. If we go by the wiki's style of range rating, then equidistant universes makes sense because more number means more range, if we don't then we may have to rethink the way we handle range for such Tier 2 and above characters. Also if infinite distance between them, then aren't they basically Low 1-C at that point as they are way beyond the distance of significantly affecting(which is universal distance)?

Well, there is a reason why Multipliers don't typically allow you to boost your AP once you reach Tier 2.

• Low 2-C Character x 50 Power Boost = Low 2-C. (They can destroy 50 Universes, however since there is an unknown distance between them, we can't say that being 50x above baseline Low 2-C is enough to penetrate that unknown distance).
• Character Destroys 50 Universes with an Unknown Distance Between them = 2-C

The unknown distance is already incorporated into Tier 2 in general.

 

[Tanin_iver]

If they have 5D Range, then they can attack something that is 5D. It's just it won't have much of an effect cause their potency is too low.

That's kinda what I meant to ask, especially bcos 2-C and above characters are not limited to 4 dimensions. Also, we are talking about the range of effectiveness not necessarily the outcome of what happens and potency is not that relevant to the range.

Well, there is a reason why Multipliers don't typically allow you to boost your AP once you reach Tier 2.

• Low 2-C Character x 50 Power Boost = Low 2-C. (They can destroy 50 Universes, however since there is an unknown distance between them, we can't say that being 50x above baseline Low 2-C is enough to penetrate that unknown distance).
• Character Destroys 50 Universes with an Unknown Distance Between them = 2-C

The unknown distance is already incorporated into Tier 2 in general.

I am aware of this.
Low 2-C multipliers won't allow the character to affect other universes as its explicitly 4D. It doesn't have the range to affect other universes which are displaced in a 5D plane spatio-temporally separated from other universes.
What I am asking is if the distance is unknown, then why are we giving very specific range ratings to characters like Low Multiversal that is limited to a 1000 universes even if the distance is unknown between each universe for most of the verses? If it is unknown then a 2-C character can have greater range then a 2-B character theoretically. My problem is with the assumption for the standards in the wiki itself, not how a specific verse treats it.
Also, a 2-C character can be Low 1-C with an infinite multiplier because the attacks have infinite power across all 5 dimension.

Btw, I added some more questions in the OP. Feel free to answer them too if you are interested.

 

[DarkGrath]

I've been asked to reply here.

1. Are the temporal dimensions considered physical in nature, as it seemed to me that way considering that we assumed them to be like uncountably infinite 3D(or n-D) snapshots of the physical universe. In terms of AP specifically, do we consider something like (3 spatial + 2 temporal)dimensions the same as (4 spatial + 1 temporal) dimensions?

I don't know what exactly you mean by "physical" in this context. But in regard to how we would treat variations of spatial/temporal dimensions for tiering, I've never seen the divide be used for splitting attack potency - which is to say, I don't believe we'd treat two characters who affect 5 dimensions to the same degree differently if the composition of those dimensions was made up of more or less spatial/temporal dimensions.

2. Regarding 2-C and above feats how are the characters or their feats treated. Like are the characters assumed to make an omnidirectional blast that can cover the 5D distance between the universes, so like do the characters have non-zero 5D AP in some form or range to affect 5D structures? Or are the characters assumed to use some form of Dimensional travel like portals to deliver their attacks to the other universes? What about characters who can merge or split universes by moving them in their 5D spatial axis?

Same, really, as any other differentiations between attack potency and range. If a character gets Low 1-C by using an attack that directly destroys a 5-D structure (and not by, say, some indirect domino effect), then it would follow that the range of that attack can stretch across the 5-D structure. We would use the context of the feat itself to determine the mechanism behind the range. The same could not necessarily be stated for a character who gets Low 1-C via simply scaling to another Low 1-C character by harming them, as this would be a valid AP feat, but wouldn't say anything about their range by itself.

3. Do the characters only get greater range (and does this range equates to normal attacks) due to more universes because the characters just get 4D AP supposedly, even tho Low 2-C already is infinite 4D AP and range(what range are they even getting if they are already infinite). Or do they get 5D higher dimensional range due to being capable of affecting beyond the scope of a infinite 4D space-time(Low 2-C).

'Range' in the sense of multiversal feats is always a bit of a headache, primarily because we know 'multiple timelines' would imply these timelines are separated in some form, but we don't necessarily know by what degree or mechanism they are separated. We usually mutually understand that, for example, it is probably of higher range to be able to affect 100 timelines at once than only a single timeline. But in most cases, it is impossible to say with any specificity what the distinction would be.

What I can say is that we would not necessarily grant such a character 5-D range. Merely having multiple infinite timelines does not necessarily mean they are separated along a 5-D continuum.

To explain with an analogy - you can fit infinitely many decimal numbers between 0 and 1, and you can also fit infinitely many decimal numbers between 2 and 3. These two sets of numbers (the set of all numbers between 0 and 1, and the set of all numbers between 2 and 3) are each infinitely large, and separated from each other, but they're still only subsets of the infinite number line. Infinities can be a subset of infinity; you do not need another scale to separate infinitely large subsets from each other, and in this sense, you do not need a 5-D 'line' to separate infinitely large 4-D universes from each other. You would only claim there is a 5-D construct containing them with direct evidence to this.

4. What is the distance between universes assumed to be in cases of 2-C or above structures? Is it equidistant or non-equidistant from each other?

Read above. It's not possible to give a meaningful answer in isolation - the most we can do is use the context, or in the absence of context, estimate based on the number of universes.

5. If distances between universes are assumed to be non-equidistant, then what kind of distances can be assumed? Can universes be literally infinitesimal/zero distance basically right next to each other? Can universes be infinite distance away from each other?

Alluding again to this idea, we'd generally assume more universes = greater distance in isolation, but there's not really any way to prove that if the information on the feat doesn't make it clear.

6. A character who can destroy a higher dimensional finite sized object say 1 m^4 in all sides have infinitely more power than a High 3-A character? Is the higher dimensional object considered infinitely more durable than a High 3-A object?

This is the kind of situation where the use of 'dimensions' in the verse itself becomes very important to tiering.

To answer briefly - no, they wouldn't. If you think of destroying an object as a question of 'how much force is acting upon a particular object', then force is simply calculated through mass times acceleration. Both mass and acceleration can be calculated when dealing with more than 3 spatial dimensions (at least when speaking in theoretical mathematics, there's nothing wrong with having a 4 dimensional object of a set mass moving across a 4 dimensional space at a certain increasing speed in such a way that the force of the object can be calculated), so breaking a 1m^4 object doesn't necessarily require infinite force. Comparatively, destroying infinite 3-D space could only occur if infinite force was applied to it (assuming nothing along the lines of a domino effect is present, and that all space requires >0 force to destroy). So merely having access to a higher dimension does not equate to being able to exert greater force.

This is why the context of higher dimensionality in the fictional work is important. It is not enough to simply be able to affect things on a higher dimension - there needs to be something to indicate that this creates an infinite power divide between the higher dimension and the lower dimension for it to qualify.

7. Similar to question 6, a character who can destroy a finite sized object say 1 m^3 in all sides and also say 1 second worth of time from the timeline containing the object. Will it have infinitely more power than a High 3-A character?

I can't say I've ever heard of such a feat occurring before, so this is largely where my expertise on the topic ends. However, I can offer some less qualified thoughts nonetheless.

In practice, I doubt we would treat such a character as being infinitely more powerful than a High 3-A character. There are two reasons. One, as I've stated before, infinity can be a subset of infinity - you can compact infinitely many "snapshots" of a High 3-A structure into 1 second of time, but adding them all up still produces the same value: infinity. Two, such a feat would not qualify for Low 2-C by our tiering system standards, as our tiering system page explicitly states that the temporal dimension affected cannot be 'compactified' (which is physics jargon to say that the temporal dimension affected cannot be finite, which 1 second would be). So chances are, we would simply treat both characters as High 3-A, and not distinguish their strength in this regard. This is a very interesting question, though, and I am curious if there are deviating perspectives on it.

8. How about if we compare erasing 1 second (or any amount of finite time) of the entire space-time(not just the object) by a character, is it infinitely stronger than a High 3-A character?

Read above: my answer is 'probably not', but I've never seen a case like this before, so I'm not certain.

9. There is a character with say 5D spatial HDE. It has energy projection attacks that have a range of trillions of light years. Will this range be applicable for all 5 axes(x, y, z, t, w)?

As with the other higher-dimensional range matters, the answer is simply 'it depends'. How the energy projection attacks are depicted in the verse is what matters, not some pre-existing standard about what range such an attack 'should' have.