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Solaris Speed Downgrade

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Mave has an excellent point. The speed page straight up says that. However Solaris has a shitty speed justification.

I was thinking this.

Speed: Immeasurable (exists in the past, present and future simultaneously, which would naturally allow him to react at such speeds) or something like that.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
I got one.
Speed: Immeasurable (Its nature of being higher-dimensional allows it to exist simultaneously in the past, present, and future, thus unconstrained by the linear flow of time)
Click to expand...
That seems good
 
2 of the Super Trio time travel by moving aswell,both before & after the battle with Solaris. That's immeasurable,right?
 
Issen Mk III said:
2 of the Super Trio time travel by moving aswell,both before & after the battle with Solaris. That's immeasurable,right?
Click to expand...
Yes, but them being in a void kinda clases with this idea.
 
What are the summarised conclusions here?
 
Immeasurable stays, the justification just needs to be fixed so that it doesn't mention void stuff which is irrelevant to the speed rating.
 
It was rejected by mostly everyone, with a rework of Solaris's speed description because the old one is outdated
 
"It was rejected by mostly everyone"

Hold my beer

In all seriousness, I do think immeasurable Super forms are inconsistent as all hell, even with giving them the variable tier. Thing is, I do agree with Solaris being immeasurable, as I'm the one who upgraded him to that speed in the first place. So I'm caught in the middle. You could make the argument that being higher dimensional no longer gives you immeasurable speed by default and that Solaris's existence throughout time is just type 3 acausality. But I'm not sure I want to die on that hill.

On the bright side I'm no longer against uni level Super Sonic anymore.
 
Higher-dimensional by default doesn't give immeasurable speed, however with Solaris it directly ties into him existing in all time periods at once, thus linear time is something that wouldn't apply to him. Any movement he makes, as it would simultaneously cross all points in time would be immeasurable.

I can handle fixing the description to remove the void mentioning as I agree that shouldn't be there.
 
From what I know so far, it should be "Infinite with Immeasurable reaction, combat and attack speed. Omnipresence throughout time."

The "Infinite" speed part comes from the fact that they are clearly in an environment with the compressed time of all 3 time periods of the timeline existing in 1 place. Time was never actually destroyed because if it was, then the idea of time travel to defeat Solaris would literally be impossible. Anyway, when you compress the past, present and future into one fixed point, it becomes a singularity that makes time last infinitely. So moving here & using ranged attacks that hits your target in this compressed time environment in moments is considered as infinite speed.

Even though he can auto-block any possible attack in all 3 time periods simultaneously with his arms (which applies for only reaction & combat speed), Solaris has shown to have some trouble keeping up with the Super Hedgehogs' flight speed when he turns his entire body when trying to properly aim his ranged attacks (that apparently moves in immeasurable speeds since it can tag all 3 Super Hedgehogs from a distance) at them. Also, since being Higher-Dimensional doesn't auto-grant immeasurable movement speed, then this should be an acceptable speed rating for Solaris.
 
Partially true, Solaris didn't destroy the universe yet, he was going to along with the rest of existence if he wasn't stopped. What he did was warp space-time to turn it into an empty void, although the Sonic cast and chunks of the Earth got caught in a rift which is why they survived. However, nothing was said about time being compressed into a singularity.

As I stated above, any movement Solaris makes would be immeasurable because his state of being which allows him to be omnipresent across time in the first place means that he would not be bounded by linear time. So there would be no reason to tack on an additional infinite speed rating.
 
If this very flawed downgrade thread can get us Immeasurable Dialga than I'll consider this a Win Win.
 
Dialga, yeah I expected that one. Dialga is different from Solaris in that Dialga is a direct embodiment of time, so his true self lacks any sort of physical body that moves around, because he already is everywhere in the multiverse. Solaris controls time and exists throughout it but is not a direct embodiment of it, he still has a body that moves around.
 
@ShadowWarrior Think about it, if it was just an "empty void" (once again, its impossible for it to be a void without time because it makes time travel literally impossible anyways) that Solaris created after warping space-time and Super Silver destroyed the armor completely off of his arms from the future, then how would Solaris somehow not have that armor when fighting against Super Sonic & Super Shadow in earlier time periods? That makes no sense Shadow.

It wouldn't have happened yet in the past & present, so the only possible explanation for this is that the environment is clearly time being compressed to a single point and compressing Time can allow any changes to one time period happen to all time periods since the environment is basically a singularity of time after Solaris warped the timeline to make it one.

Yes, every movement from his arms, which scales only to combat speed since he isn't moving his entire body. No Shadow, state of being =/= actual speed, that's only just "Omnipresence throughout time" and we don't treat that as auto-immeasurable movement anymore. Solaris would still have Infinite movement speed (Immeasurable reaction, combat and attack speed is still okay for Solaris to have) b/c he needs to turn his entire body to keep up with the flight speed of the Super Hedgehogs to properly aim his laser at them, which he has some trouble doing w/o the Super Hedgehogs staying still and Eggman mentioned that he's bounded to that dimension while in that form too, so yea.

The rating "Infinite with Immeasurable reaction, combat and attack speed" is the best acceptable one we got for now.
 
So you haven't reached some form of agreement yet?
 
@Magi Hussie Lacking time isn't an inherent trait of voids, a void can still have time in it but be physically empty. It does make sense, what you just described there is a result of Silver having immeasurable speed, which is what they needed to even be able to interact with Solaris in the first place.

Your explanation for Solaris having infinite movement speed requires an explanation that is stated nowhere in the game. Therefore it has no basis. Also, the hedgehogs are a lot smaller than Solaris, so no surprise he'd have trouble aiming his laser at them when he has to be very precise to land a hit on them.
 
Antvasima said:
So you haven't reached some form of agreement yet?
Click to expand...
We have, for the most part. We're just changing Solaris' current speed description to better fit why he's Immeasurable. What's currently being discussed is something that's an assumption that isn't remotely implied by the narrative.

We can probably conclude this CRT soon, since the general consensus is that Immeasurable stays
 
Okay.
 
@Shadow Ik, because a void that lacks time would be considered as a void of nothingness (which neither time or space exists inside it as space cannot exist w/o time after all). The 2nd thing you said doesn't prove that the void has no time Shadow nor does it disprove that the environment they are moving in is clearly a timeline that has been compressed into a singularity & allows Solaris to exist in all 3 time periods in the first place.

Higher-Dimensionality =/= Immeasurable movement speed, which you have not proven that Solaris has other than only just having Immeasurable reaction, combat and attack speed either Shadow and as I said before, Solaris couldn't move his entire body and block Super Sonic homing attack at the center of his body in time.
 
@Magi Hussie What are you saying? The fight takes place in Sonic's universe after it was warped into an empty void, but the space-time was still there. I don't have to prove a negative, you have to prove that time has been compressed into a singularity. On another note, infinite speed for timeless voids got nuked.

Nowhere did I say higher-dimensional = immeasurable, in fact I've said the opposite, that it's not a default. In Solaris's case, it ties into how he's not bound by linear time, which is immeasurable. Super Sonic scales to Solaris, not the other way around and again, Solaris's large size puts him at a disadvantage against the hedgehogs.
 
I disagree with the downgrade for the reasons stated above. Just want to point out to the OP that the transcendent statement is not the main thing supporting Solaris' dimensionality, there's the super-dimensional statement too. Although, I disagree with the idea of that being Higher D wouldn't automatically give you Immeasurable speed.
 
What defines "Super-Dimensional?" That seems to be a term that was coined in Sonic 06.
 
@Shadow Empty Void (Your claim) = Nothingness (the definition of it) = Devoid of Space and Time (also the definition of it), saying otherwise means you clearly do not know what an "empty void" is. However, this claim would already be auto-disconfirmed regardless for 2 main reasons:

  • 1. Time Travel and that's self-explanatory.
  • 2. Nigh-Omnipresence by being throughout time, which requires time to exist and your state of being physically can't be in everywhen without time.
That's funny when you mentioned that about timeless voids when I clearly mentioned "compressed time" and compressed time is never timeless. When you compress time (in Solaris case, the timeline) to a single point (also known as a singularity), which Solaris did to the entire timeline he apparently anchored himself in, time becomes infinite. Solaris was able to do this thanks to his Nigh-Omnipresence allowing him to affect all 3 time periods by warping space-time and by doing so, it allows him to instantaneously react to any potential action from the Super Hedgehogs in 3 separate time periods simultaneously and remember, all of this is still happening in one place & my next explanation will tell you why.

You must have forgotten the meaning of why Dr. Eggman mentioned that Solaris is anchored to that dimension. When Dr. Eggman mentioned that he's anchored to that time dimension he's in, it means he can't leave the time dimension and that also means Solaris movement speed is indeed not Immeasurable b/c you are required to either travel between alternate timelines or other time dimensions in order have that speed rating, so that would be another reason why Solaris would have Infinite movement speed instead.

The only other speed ratings that Solaris has as Immeasurable is Reaction, Combat and Attack Speed & there's nothing wrong with only having that. Solaris state of being is not bound by linear time and does not scale to his actual movement speed, which is only Infinite and no, what I'm explaining to you does not mean "Super Hedgehogs > Solaris via speed."

This is what I mean:

  • Solaris Reaction, Combat and Attack Speed (Immeasurable) = Flight Speed of the Super Hedgehogs (Immeasurable) > Solaris movement Speed (Infinite).
 
@PlozAlcachaz Usually that rule would mainly apply for Tier 2 characters as not all of them can travel between timelines/alternate dimensions and the character only having just Omnipresence & similar forms of it would invalidate that as Immeasurable speed too.
 
@Magi Hussie In other words, you nitpicked what I was saying and twisted it to mean something else. That's also wrong, empty void can also mean a vacuum, not that it necessarily lacks time and space. But since we seem to agree that it isn't timeless, then we should drop the semantics debate.

You keep going on about time being compressed into a singularity when it was never stated anywhere that was happening. In fact, Eggman stated that "defeating it here, now would do nothing" which goes against your notion. It was also never expanded upon why Eggman said Solaris was anchored, it just meant that Solaris was staying put in Sonic's universe (universes are called dimensions in Sonic), plus that was during Phase 1. Solaris is already in all time periods, whenever he moves within a timeline he is automatically moving through all points in time. Therefore any movement he makes is immeasurable.
 
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