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Uh, in the second game, he beat Vader by pumping a **** ton of lightning into him. That's pretty different.
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Shouldn't Darth Vader have 4-B Durability?
- Thread starter Adem_Warlock69
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Also Shouldn't Grievous have 4-B durability for tanking lightsaber attacks? Because they cut 4-Bs?
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...No? He took a solid five seconds to charge up. Vader had all the time he'd need to get defenses up. Plus they were trading blows for nearly 30 minutes prior.LordWhis said:
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The current assumption for Star Wars profiles is that lightsabers are enhanced with the force by the user. So GM Luke's ligjtsaber will do more damage than Padawan Ahsoka's lightsaber.Adem Warlock69 said:
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Dooku and Yoda were trading blows for a long time too. And again lightning short circuits Vader's life support systems as has been proven time and time again. It should not scale to his dura at all. Also I'd argue Starkiller amped himself by using the pillars, Vader easily ragdolled him before he used the pillars.The Wright Way said:
Also IIRC someone once stated that Vader let Starkiller win.
TFA2 novel even says Vader was fighting to disable not to kill.
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He scales above Vitiate who in turn is likely stronger then the 4-B Valley of the JediZephyrosOmega said:
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bump
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Dooku does not scale to the average Jedi though. He is much closer to Yoda than to Yarael Poof. He isn't comparable to the average Jedi Master. He is significantly inferior to Yoda, but not by much. We might make a revision thread about that.
I disagree with scaling Vader to Sidious though.
I disagree with scaling Vader to Sidious though.
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Adem Warlock69 said:
he was able to keep up with Obi-wan and Mace windu at the same time
he consistently proves himself to be far superior to Ventress (whom post-Attack of the Clones Anakin had to tap into the dark side to defeat during the Clone Wars), one-shots high-level Council Members, grossly outclassed Quinlan Vos on multiple occasions, and grew much stronger than he ever was as a Jedi.
- Dooku could not argue. Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the darkside itself. - Revenge of the Sith (Novelization)
- He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history, yet at the age of seventy Dooku's principles would no longer allow him to serve a Republic in which political power was for sale to the highest bidder.
- With two such powerful Masters, Dooku quickly grew to become a most powerful and respected Jedi, and acknowledged master lightsaber duellist.
- One of the greatest legends of the Jedi Order, and one of its greatest losses, Dooku was a revered Jedi Master until he abandoned his commission, disillusioned with the direction of both the Jedi and the Republic they served.
- "Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."
"Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all," Obi-Wan acknowledged. "Now we have a great and powerful enemy." His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same.
It's from ByAsura's blog
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ByAsura has collected some stuff on Dooku.
I've been discussing this with him and others for a few weeks. Lorenzo thinks we should upgrade Anakin to 4-B, but I am quite uncertain on that tbh. We're also downgrading Legends 5-Bs btw, and upgrading Canon Palpatine to 6-B.
I think we either downscale Dooku to High 4-C (cuz Sidiosu is baseline) or just put them as unknown to avoid the controversy.
I've been discussing this with him and others for a few weeks. Lorenzo thinks we should upgrade Anakin to 4-B, but I am quite uncertain on that tbh. We're also downgrading Legends 5-Bs btw, and upgrading Canon Palpatine to 6-B.
I think we either downscale Dooku to High 4-C (cuz Sidiosu is baseline) or just put them as unknown to avoid the controversy.
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He should be 4-B like Mace Windu
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Mace Windu should have keys. TPM Mace Windu was stated to be comparable to Jedi Master Dooku, both far superior to the average Jedi Master. Sith Dooku is stronger than Jedi Dooku, as Yoda said. AOTC Mace Windu fought AOTC Dooku, who kinda held his own against Yoda. There are many quotes in both Canon and Legends saying Dooku is nearly comparable to Yoda, you can refer to my discussion with ByAsura and Lorenzo. He should be either High 4-C via downscaling or simply Unknown if we want to avoid controversy imo.
Regarding the common counter-arguments of Sidious being far stronger than Vader, Sidious actually grew stronger in the Original Trilogy (Lorenzo found a quote for that, you can try to find it in our discussion once again).
Sith Dooku, Prime Anakin and Prime Obi-Wan all stomp the average Jedi, they shouldn't scale to the likes of Kit Fisto or Plo Koon.
Regarding the common counter-arguments of Sidious being far stronger than Vader, Sidious actually grew stronger in the Original Trilogy (Lorenzo found a quote for that, you can try to find it in our discussion once again).
Sith Dooku, Prime Anakin and Prime Obi-Wan all stomp the average Jedi, they shouldn't scale to the likes of Kit Fisto or Plo Koon.
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I think High 6-A likely far higher works for Legends Dooku and those who scale
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I'm not really for 4-B Mace Windu honestly. At least for the current reasons he's given. Mace had a pretty massive Vaapad amp against Sidious when they battled. Without the amp multiple sources states he couldn't even register Palpatine's inital attack against the Jedi strike squad.
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Tbh I can agree with that, but ByAsura and Lorenzo seem to think that's not enough.
What High 6-A feats do they scale to though? We're downgrading the 5-Bs, and all the High 6-A feats are by powerful Sith Lords.
What High 6-A feats do they scale to though? We're downgrading the 5-Bs, and all the High 6-A feats are by powerful Sith Lords.
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ROTS Mace Windu matched Sidious.
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Shouldn't he be " "Dooku Tier", 4-B with Vaapad"Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
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According to the RotS novelization he was still able to hold his own against Sidious when he slipped out of Vapaad.
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This is Lorenzo's suggestion.Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
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I can live with keys for Windu
That said I agree he should only be Likely 4-B with Vaapad (For matching a relatively holding back Palpatine)
That said I agree he should only be Likely 4-B with Vaapad (For matching a relatively holding back Palpatine)
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He never slipped out of Vaapad against Sidious though.Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
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Mace cannot use the Force in conjunction with Vapaad, at least in Legends.
There also WoG saying he's comparable to Sidious.
| His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a des-perate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad. |
| Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side. |
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He was distracted because of either Anakin or slashing a window, not because he can't use force powers with Vapaad
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now—
And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The chosen one was here.
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
Not dying to a force push isn't enough for a base 4-B raring in my view.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now—
And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The chosen one was here.
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
Not dying to a force push isn't enough for a base 4-B raring in my view.
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Windu had to drop out of Vapaad to deflect a force blast, and it clearly says that he had to clear his head to get back into Vapaad. When Vapaad is in disuse Windu holds his own just fine, suggesting that he is nearly comparable to Sidious in the Force. This is supported by WoG saying that Windu is comparable to Sidious.
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The same WoG also says Vader is 80% that of Sidious, something we ignore because it's contradictory.
Anyways Windu didn't drop out of Vapaad to deflect a force blast. He left it to shatter a window and reentered it right after he deflected himself into a wall. Before Vapaad he couldn't even see Sidious initially and was later overpowered even when Vapaad was up and fully active.
Him scaling in the New Canon I get, but in Legends it's a text book case of statistics amplification with an outside amp.
Anyways Windu didn't drop out of Vapaad to deflect a force blast. He left it to shatter a window and reentered it right after he deflected himself into a wall. Before Vapaad he couldn't even see Sidious initially and was later overpowered even when Vapaad was up and fully active.
Him scaling in the New Canon I get, but in Legends it's a text book case of statistics amplification with an outside amp.
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I guess I can agree with it being an amp in Legends.
Although we still need keys for him, as he was comparable to Jedi Dooku in TPM, comparable to Sith Dooku in AOTC, and likely more stronger in ROTS.
Although we still need keys for him, as he was comparable to Jedi Dooku in TPM, comparable to Sith Dooku in AOTC, and likely more stronger in ROTS.
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Tbh we should probably separate the Canon and Legends page for the main characters.
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Yeah we need to. At least for characters with massive power differences like Sidious, Vader, and Yoda.
Although we still need keys for him, as he was comparable to Jedi Dooku in TPM, comparable to Sith Dooku in AOTC, and likely more stronger in ROTS.
He's probably stronger by RotS, if only because he fully mastered Vapaad by that point. Although Grievous matched him in close quarters combat in LoE for a bit, though I guess that's more due to how Grievous throws Jedi off rather than being comparable enough to evenly fight him
Although we still need keys for him, as he was comparable to Jedi Dooku in TPM, comparable to Sith Dooku in AOTC, and likely more stronger in ROTS.
He's probably stronger by RotS, if only because he fully mastered Vapaad by that point. Although Grievous matched him in close quarters combat in LoE for a bit, though I guess that's more due to how Grievous throws Jedi off rather than being comparable enough to evenly fight him
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I can change the Title if you want...
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We should conclude the other Star Wars CRTs first before such a controversial revision. Moreover, we're still discussing the revisions. We should close this for now.
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mind if i comment on a few things?
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Sure
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k.
i just wanted to say something about windu- he was not stated to be equal to sheev, he was stated to be one of two people he couldve beaten him at the time. likely cuz he had vapaad.
i just wanted to say something about windu- he was not stated to be equal to sheev, he was stated to be one of two people he couldve beaten him at the time. likely cuz he had vapaad.
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Alright.
This should be closed for now, again.
This should be closed for now, again.
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