Shinza and the weird duality thing

[TISSG7Redgrave]

@DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Ultima_Reality Satisfy my dumb curiosity

 

[Deriot2]

Mmm... I believe the statement that "all dualistic concepts" resided in the Shinga mandala is relative and specific to its world.

白と黒、青と赤、光と闇、表と裏。
この世に存在するありとあらゆる二元的な、鬩ぎ合い相克する現象、概念、残らずすべてがそこにあった。流動し、流転して、万華鏡のごとく形を変えながら回り続ける綾模様の大曼荼羅。無限と思えるほどの色に溢れ、だというのに独立しているものが一つとしてない。敵(つがい)となる何がしかが、絶対的な法のもとに必ず定められている。

White and black, blue and red, light and darkness, front and back.
All dualistic phenomena and concepts that exist in this world, constantly struggling and conflicting, without exception, were there. A great mandala of intertwined patterns that flowed, rotated, and continuously changed shape like a kaleidoscope. Overflowing with colors that seemed infinite, yet there was nothing independent. Whatever formed an opposing pair was always determined under an absolute law.

Although I have indeed considered your point: if the throne encompasses all concepts, wouldn’t it then also include the notions of difference between R and F, which are constantly shown through various analogies?

But I believe that assuming any idea—something said or thought by any character—is a concept structurally encompassed by the throne and surpassed by it, raises several narrative problems.

Hmm... For example, we know that the multiverse was a notion foreign to the structure of the first throne. The system operated under a unidirectional and continuous time, where traveling to the past was forbidden, and if done, making significant changes could cause everything to collapse. The fact that a character in Avesta speculated about other universes or the notion of a Multiverse doesn’t mean that this concept actually exists —or at least that it has any structural correspondence in the throne—

About the CD Drama…
The notion that “the Throne transcended all things” was what gods believed. It was thought to be the summit where all laws were defined, but a deeper reflection —mentioned in the CD drama— Ultimately, it undermines that belief, since the gods and their thrones are subject to laws that originate from higher up (as Suigin mentioned: "There is always a bigger fish").

There’s also the fact that the CD Drama itself serves to relativize the transduality of the gods, as they try to define Naraka as something “greater” or “more powerful,” to which Naraka responds that they should not apply to him the very concepts they cling to. Naraka is not to be measured by being greater or stronger.
By contrast, the Hadou still operate within the dichotomy of great and small: where the strong subjugate the weak.

How that affects the scaling, I have no idea — I don’t know all the parameters used for categorization.

I was just trying to add a bit of nuance to the matter. I could start talking about Daoism or Neo-Confucianism, from which the Work (Especially K3) draws several of its notions, but I think that would be going too far.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Although I have indeed considered your point: if the throne encompasses all concepts, wouldn’t it then also include the notions of difference between R and F, which are constantly shown through various analogies?

Why would it? It always makes it clear no mortal unless they have taiji would be able to do something to the god. It would be weird to be selective of these notions especially when its a lot more consistent. I meant Vahram is also very clear from his PoV nothing is real. So by using Aeon and his elevation to being a god tier, he's dragging things to the "real" side. I don't see how that's bloody vague.

But I believe that assuming any idea—something said or thought by any character—is a concept structurally encompassed by the throne and surpassed by it, raises several narrative problems.

I mean if so then higher dimensions cannot exist in every shinza world cuz simply its from Muzan so he would be the strongest when he clearly isn't. Why be selective over certain parts as if those concepts vanished when a god dies? Its just their law won't be a god's law anymore.

About the CD Drama…
The notion that “the Throne transcended all things” was what gods believed. It was thought to be the summit where all laws were defined, but a deeper reflection —mentioned in the CD drama— Ultimately, it undermines that belief, since the gods and their thrones are subject to laws that originate from higher up (as Suigin mentioned: "There is always a bigger fish").

the issue is naraka is something very different. Only Mithra knows what's beyond the deeper layers anyway but that doesn't mean those concepts would be superior to the gods. It just means Naraka is way above their paygrade.

There’s also the fact that the CD Drama itself serves to relativize the transduality of the gods, as they try to define Naraka as something “greater” or “more powerful,” to which Naraka responds that they should not apply to him the very concepts they cling to. Naraka is not to be measured by being greater or stronger.
By contrast, the Hadou still operate within the dichotomy of great and small: where the strong subjugate the weak.

It just means Naraka operates on something fundamentally different from even a god. Its his way of saying trying to label him from even a God's PoV is useless as he is more than that so if anything it shows how far Naraka is to the Gods at the moment when Hajun only vaguely knew the shape of the rangers.

Hmm... For example, we know that the multiverse was a notion foreign to the structure of the first throne. The system operated under a unidirectional and continuous time, where traveling to the past was forbidden, and if done, making significant changes could cause everything to collapse. The fact that a character in Avesta speculated about other universes or the notion of a Multiverse doesn’t mean that this concept actually exists —or at least that it has any structural correspondence in the throne—

Just because that's a thing doesn't necessarily mean it isn't above it. The throne is still above all things that exist in the god's world that isn't a taiji level anyway. And collapse in what way is a bit vague no? You have to remember multiverse can exist but the god's can forbid it like Mithra as her world is by definition a restriction type. She doesn't allow possibilities while someone like Marie would letting the multiverse flourish

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Why would it? It always makes it clear no mortal unless they have taiji would be able to do something to the god. It would be weird to be selective of these notions especially when its a lot more consistent. I meant Vahram is also very clear from his PoV nothing is real. So by using Aeon and his elevation to being a god tier, he's dragging things to the "real" side. I don't see how that's bloody vague.

Wasn't magsarion repeatedly folding Mithra and killing her but coulnd't put her down for good because he isn't a god? Mithra had to resort to making infinite clones or something to keep him occupied while another world in ahura mazda was done or something like that

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Wasn't magsarion repeatedly folding Mithra and killing her but coulnd't put her down for good because he isn't a god? Mithra had to resort to making infinite clones or something to keep him occupied while another world in ahura mazda was done or something like that

No. Magsarion is clearly a god's level as he scales to Vahram who Masada put at tier 7, reserved for God tier. It's just Magsarion's attributes don't allow him to fully destroy Mithra. So its an attribute problem as Mithra does encompass everything in creation. For how long it took Mags to do his omnicide, that's how long it would take at least to kill Mithra. He could but by then another Hadou could be born, which would be strong enough to kill them both and that would be Mithra's victory. And that option is far more likely to happen in the eternity it takes Mags to kill all of Mithra's clones. Hence why he resorted to use the hadou prayers and all he took in to create a personality armor to house Hadou traits.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

No. Magsarion is clearly a god's level as he scales to Vahram who Masada put at tier 7, reserved for God tier. It's just Magsarion's attributes don't allow him to fully destroy Mithra. So its an attribute problem as Mithra does encompass everything in creation. For how long it took Mags to do his omnicide, that's how long it would take at least to kill Mithra. He could but by then another Hadou could be born, which would be strong enough to kill them both and that would be Mithra's victory. And that option is far more likely to happen in the eternity it takes Mags to kill all of Mithra's clones. Hence why he resorted to use the hadou prayers and all he took in to create a personality armor to house Hadou traits.

God level =/= God

The point is that a being without taiji/atziluth/big bang/taikyoku/whatever other name is capable of straight up folding a God (apparently even Hajun).

So he can kill Mithra eventually then. Also how is that he, who scales to Vahram, would die to some other possible Hadou when he should be at the highest rare of 7.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

God level =/= God

The point is that a being without taiji/atziluth/big bang/taikyoku/whatever other name is capable of straight up folding a God (apparently even Hajun).

So he can kill Mithra eventually then. Also how is that he, who scales to Vahram, would die to some other possible Hadou when he should be at the highest rare of 7.

And? What's the point? Magsarion clearly scales to the gods and his case is more unique anyway.

Are you high? No one was folding Hajun you bloke. Hajun only got cuts from MUZAN who is fundamentally different from Magsarion.

Because Vahram isn't the strongest tier 7? Tony its just logic. Plus the Hadou would be stronger than Mithra and potentially him. Vahram is the highest RARE not the strongest tier 7 for crying out loud. Its just his power is more fundamentally different from Mags as Mags absorbed Big bang character's prayers which allowed his transition to being a Hadou through a personality armor. Meanwhile Vahram uses 0 and Aeon which is not something the gods have at all...

 

[Deriot2]

Why would it? It always makes it clear no mortal unless they have taiji would be able to do something to the god. It would be weird to be selective of these notions especially when its a lot more consistent. I meant Vahram is also very clear from his PoV nothing is real. So by using Aeon and his elevation to being a god tier, he's dragging things to the "real" side. I don't see how that's bloody vague.


I mean if so then higher dimensions cannot exist in every shinza world cuz simply its from Muzan so he would be the strongest when he clearly isn't. Why be selective over certain parts as if those concepts vanished when a god dies? Its just their law won't be a god's law anymore.


the issue is naraka is something very different. Only Mithra knows what's beyond the deeper layers anyway but that doesn't mean those concepts would be superior to the gods. It just means Naraka is way above their paygrade.

It just means Naraka operates on something fundamentally different from even a god. Its his way of saying trying to label him from even a God's PoV is useless as he is more than that so if anything it shows how far Naraka is to the Gods at the moment when Hajun only vaguely knew the shape of the rangers.


Just because that's a thing doesn't necessarily mean it isn't above it. The throne is still above all things that exist in the god's world that isn't a taiji level anyway. And collapse in what way is a bit vague no? You have to remember multiverse can exist but the god's can forbid it like Mithra as her world is by definition a restriction type. She doesn't allow possibilities while someone like Marie would letting the multiverse flourish

1.
The fact that most mortals cannot face a god is related to the idealistic framework on which the world of Shinza is based. Gods, as the epitome of thoughts, emotions, and desires, naturally govern a world founded on those notions — just as Mitra intended, in opposition to what she look in the original coordinate. In any case, you don’t exclusively need “Taikyoku” to confront a god. Magsarion has the power level of a god without having the disposition of one. (Categorically saying that Magsarion is a god just because he scales with Varhran or any other character ignores his entire character development...)


2.
The fact that the thrones after Muzan’s lack higher dimensions doesn’t mean they are inferior. All the thrones after Muzan’s lie at a greater depth, which implies that with or without higher dimensions, they are metaphysically superior structures.


3.
Re-listen to the CD Drama from 3:04 to 5:12.

At 3:12, Ren himself declares that “The throne they were fighting over was not as absolute as they assumed” (which happens right after Reinhard’s statement that “It transcends everything,” making this a direct refutation of that notion). Then, both he and Marie elaborate better on the argument behind that statement, explaining how strange it is that they (the gods and their thrones) are still subject to rules (such as the impossibility of coexistence or the impermanence caused by the continuous succession of gods) if they were supposed to be the origin of all laws and rules. Marie, with her law, was able to undermine these rules somewhat, but as she herself said, she couldn’t completely annul the system.

If I may elaborate with a bit of the philosophy that inspires Masada: the idea that gods are bound by rules — and even subject to a form of impermanence — and that the Throne isn't as "absolute" as once believed, makes sense when we consider that its power is classified as Taiji and that desire is its driving force.

In Taoism, Taiji is an aspect derived from the unnamable and truly permanent Tao, but as such, it is not the unnamable and permanent Tao. Regarding the part about “desire,” although translations may vary, in a recent version of the Daodejing I bought, the first poem states directly that “With desires and cravings, one can only glimpse what one wants, not the true Tao.” This happens — according to the book’s notes — because in that way, we only perceive a projection of our own desires: reality appears painted by our intentions, which prevents us from seeing it as it truly is. (I could go deeper, but I suppose it’s not that relevant.)


4.
That is why Naraka is truly the only one who could be argued to transcend duality in every sense (until proven otherwise). The fact that even gods can still be labeled with parameters like “strong and weak” or “big and small” is incompatible with the idea that they radically transcend all forms of duality.

5.
It’s not vague — they literally mention that it is a first-level contradiction that “can’t even be defined in the world of Avesta” and that it could cause the collapse of all creation. Also, for this reason, Shinga had to act by suppressing Incest’s (Mashyana’s) memories when returning to the past, to prevent the timeline from changing drastically and collapsing the system:

よって過去(ミライ)を知るような行動は封じられ、場当たり的な対応にならざるを得なかったが、これについてはある程度納得していた。　なぜなら二重に存在して入れ替わり続ける私という概念は、この一三年を何百回何千回と繰り返してきた可能性がある。自覚はできずにいるものの、本当にそうだとしたら滅茶苦茶すぎる話だろう。　それは宇宙を幾つも増やすような出鱈目。今の世界では、定義さえ不可能な特級の矛盾。　つまりあってはならない掟破りで、仕組みを正しく認識した瞬間に宇宙が滅ぶほどの爆弾だ。私の祈りとマシュヤグの力だけで成せるレベルの業(わざ)じゃなく、そこにはきっとズルワーンの愛も絡んでいる。

Therefore, actions that involved knowing the past (future) were restricted, and I had no choice but to respond in an improvised manner—but to some extent, I was at peace with that.

Because the concept of "me," which exists in duplicate and continues to switch places, might have repeated these thirteen years hundreds or even thousands of times. Although I have no awareness of it, if that were truly the case, it would be an utterly absurd story.

It is nonsense on the level of multiplying the number of universes—a supreme-class contradiction that cannot even be defined within the framework of the current world.

In other words, it is an unforgivable transgression, a bomb so destructive that merely understanding its structure correctly would cause the universe to perish. It’s not a feat that can be accomplished with just my prayer and the power of Mashyag; surely, it is also entwined with Zurvan’s love.

The introduction of the multiverse into the Throne system involves more than just the type of management a god may have. As far as I recall, Muzan's universe was of the "free" type, and that alone did not automatically create a multiverse. There was a structural change in the Throne system throughout the First and Third Heavens due to various factors (Incest, Astaroth, Myojo, etc.), which ultimately culminated in Suigin, who destroyed and rewrote the system of the throne — thus integrating the multiverse into its structure.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

And? What's the point? Magsarion clearly scales to the gods and his case is more unique anyway.

It always makes it clear no mortal unless they have taiji would be able to do something to the god.

See

Are you high? No one was folding Hajun you bloke. Hajun only got cuts from MUZAN who is fundamentally different from Magsarion.

I never said Muzan, I said Magsarion. According to everyone novel Magsarion is comparable to Varhram. Varhram is is supposed to be the highest rarity 7 or something along those lines putting him above the likes of Hajun. That means Magsarion is above Hajun.

Simple scaling.

Because Vahram isn't the strongest tier 7? Tony its just logic. Plus the Hadou would be stronger than Mithra and potentially him. Vahram is the highest RARE not the strongest tier 7 for crying out loud. Its just his power is more fundamentally different from Mags as Mags absorbed Big bang character's prayers which allowed his transition to being a Hadou through a personality armor. Meanwhile Vahram uses 0 and Aeon which is not something the gods have at all...

I mean, the highest rarity tier 7 strongly implies he is the most powerful among them.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I mean, the highest rarity tier 7 strongly implies he is the most powerful among them.

Eh... I'm skeptical about that. What that statement actually says is that Varhram belongs to the rarest class (tier 7), which makes sense considering that in the context of the statement, it's referring to gacha rarity.

I don't think it's referring to Varhram being literally the rarest in Tier 7.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Man, we are still have dead arguments about shinza in 2025. Smh.
Btw Mags was a God, Madou... a mix of both Hadou and Godou, that was why mithra won't let him take the throne. Anyone who ascends is a God.
And yes there are tons of people who are God level without becoming Gods themselves, as characters with qualification can be boosted by whatever God they serve.

@Deriot2 the throne is not absolute because above the Gods stand entitie(s) called Naraka.
The Gods are bound by the rules they made. It really is just when the biggest freshwater fish finds itself in the ocean

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

The introduction of the multiverse into the Throne system involves more than just the type of management a god may have. As far as I recall, Muzan's universe was of the "free" type, and that alone did not automatically create a multiverse. There was a structural change in the Throne system throughout the First and Third Heavens due to various factors (Incest, Astaroth, Myojo, etc.), which ultimately culminated in Suigin, who destroyed and rewrote the system of the throne — thus integrating the multiverse into its structure.

true it is free but we need more details on this part. But still the thing is Muzan does fashion his world based on the sephiroth and qlliphoth trees. So there's that.

1.
The fact that most mortals cannot face a god is related to the idealistic framework on which the world of Shinza is based. Gods, as the epitome of thoughts, emotions, and desires, naturally govern a world founded on those notions — just as Mitra intended, in opposition to what she look in the original coordinate. In any case, you don’t exclusively need “Taikyoku” to confront a god. Magsarion has the power level of a god without having the disposition of one. (Categorically saying that Magsarion is a god just because he scales with Varhran or any other character ignores his entire character development...)


2.
The fact that the thrones after Muzan’s lack higher dimensions doesn’t mean they are inferior. All the thrones after Muzan’s lie at a greater depth, which implies that with or without higher dimensions, they are metaphysically superior structures.


3.
Re-listen to the CD Drama from 3:04 to 5:12.

At 3:12, Ren himself declares that “The throne they were fighting over was not as absolute as they assumed” (which happens right after Reinhard’s statement that “It transcends everything,” making this a direct refutation of that notion). Then, both he and Marie elaborate better on the argument behind that statement, explaining how strange it is that they (the gods and their thrones) are still subject to rules (such as the impossibility of coexistence or the impermanence caused by the continuous succession of gods) if they were supposed to be the origin of all laws and rules. Marie, with her law, was able to undermine these rules somewhat, but as she herself said, she couldn’t completely annul the system.

If I may elaborate with a bit of the philosophy that inspires Masada: the idea that gods are bound by rules — and even subject to a form of impermanence — and that the Throne isn't as "absolute" as once believed, makes sense when we consider that its power is classified as Taiji and that desire is its driving force.

In Taoism, Taiji is an aspect derived from the unnamable and truly permanent Tao, but as such, it is not the unnamable and permanent Tao. Regarding the part about “desire,” although translations may vary, in a recent version of the Daodejing I bought, the first poem states directly that “With desires and cravings, one can only glimpse what one wants, not the true Tao.” This happens — according to the book’s notes — because in that way, we only perceive a projection of our own desires: reality appears painted by our intentions, which prevents us from seeing it as it truly is. (I could go deeper, but I suppose it’s not that relevant.)


4.
That is why Naraka is truly the only one who could be argued to transcend duality in every sense (until proven otherwise). The fact that even gods can still be labeled with parameters like “strong and weak” or “big and small” is incompatible with the idea that they radically transcend all forms of duality.

5.
It’s not vague — they literally mention that it is a first-level contradiction that “can’t even be defined in the world of Avesta” and that it could cause the collapse of all creation. Also, for this reason, Shinga had to act by suppressing Incest’s (Mashyana’s) memories when returning to the past, to prevent the timeline from changing drastically and collapsing the system:

1. I meant it more like his power level is one. My bad on what I meant to say but there are factors like how Mags did absorb Hadou traits overall

2. Well yeah I'm just saying the Gods fashion the world however they want based on their wish.

3. I mean I was again talking about whatever was below which would include concepts like duality and higher dimensions. They are bounded a different thing entirely which is Naraka and the issue with what happened with it during the original coordinate.

Ik masada uses Taoism and Taiji in its literal sense but let's not go too much.

4. The thing is the Gods can transcend anything in the LOWER world that isn't the throne. The throne originates all things even duality as a whole. The gods are above that but Naraka is above them. Unless you tell me they are bound by dimensions and the like which isn't true then the issue is the fact Naraka is an even more different breed.

5. I kinda can see the problem when I said that. That's more to a chain reaction though so there is that.

 

[Deriot2]

Man, we are still have dead arguments about shinza in 2025. Smh.
Btw Mags was a God, Madou... a mix of both Hadou and Godou, that was why mithra won't let him take the throne. Anyone who ascends is a God.
And yes there are tons of people who are God level without becoming Gods themselves, as characters with qualification can be boosted by whatever God they serve.

@Deriot2 the throne is not absolute because above the Gods stand entitie(s) called Naraka.
The Gods are bound by the rules they made. It really is just when the biggest freshwater fish finds itself in the ocean

I think the mistake here was assuming that everyone who has "Taikyoku" is a god.
The Tenma are not true gods, but they possess Taikyoku thanks to Yato, who shares his divine power with them (to cite an example).

But the problem with the opposite claim remains the same.
Taikyoku is not required to confront a god. Even though Magsarion shares characteristics of both Gudou and Hadou, he still does not possess Taikyoku.

Based on everything I’ve written, it should be obvious that I’m well aware of Naraka and what it entails. My point is simply this: it’s counterproductive to present something as “absolute” or as “transcending all dualities” while using a scene that was specifically written to relativize the supposed absoluteness.
Not to mention that in the same CD drama, it’s implied the gods are still bound to certain dualistic notions (which could even be debated as not superior to the R>F notions).

true it is free but we need more details on this part. But still the thing is Muzan does fashion his world based on the sephiroth and qlliphoth trees. So there's that.


1. I meant it more like his power level is one. My bad on what I meant to say but there are factors like how Mags did absorb Hadou traits overall

2. Well yeah I'm just saying the Gods fashion the world however they want based on their wish.

3. I mean I was again talking about whatever was below which would include concepts like duality and higher dimensions. They are bounded a different thing entirely which is Naraka and the issue with what happened with it during the original coordinate.

Ik masada uses Taoism and Taiji in its literal sense but let's not go too much.

4. The thing is the Gods can transcend anything in the LOWER world that isn't the throne. The throne originates all things even duality as a whole. The gods are above that but Naraka is above them. Unless you tell me they are bound by dimensions and the like which isn't true then the issue is the fact Naraka is an even more different breed.

5. I kinda can see the problem when I said that. That's more to a chain reaction though so there is that.

0. I don’t know what other information you need. You have Suigin as the opposite example to Muzan: someone with a closed type of management and yet the father of the Shinza multiverse.
.
1. Having clarified this point, I suppose there's no need to keep discussing it.

2. I understand that gods shape the world as they please, but that’s precisely what defines the limits of the concepts that can exist within it. The world simply becomes a reflection of the concepts and principles embedded in the god’s deepest desire.

And these principles and concepts are fundamentally different from any random ideas or thoughts a character might have within the god’s domain. The example I gave with Avesta was precisely to demonstrate that. Several characters throughout the story speculate about the existence of the multiverse, but that doesn’t magically make the multiverse real or turn it into a concept implemented within the Throne.

Even when it was implemented, it required what the work itself defined as “a destruction and reconstruction”.

If that’s the case, how can we be certain that the Throne encompasses and transcends the notion of R > F (in its most radical sense) just because it’s notion mentioned a couple of times in the story?

3. I don’t think I went that far—I only said that it makes sense for the gods not to be truly absolute in the story, because the philosophical concepts their powers are based on isn’t absolute either.

4. Whether or not they are subject to the concept of dimensions is at the very least debatable...
I’d elaborate more on this point, but I don’t have access to the PC where I had PL, DI, and K3 installed, along with the VFBs.


5. The problem isn’t whether the destruction is instantaneous or not, but the fact that the very laws (And system of the throne) don’t allow for the existence of more than one universe—and this paradox, which could end everything, should in itself demonstrate that the duality framework Shinga operates within is narrow.

At least, in the way I understand what it means to transcend duality in the radical sense you’re suggesting, Shinga’s Throne should be able to accommodate the duality of “Multiverse” and “No Multiverse.” Or at the very least, if Shinga had shown the ability to alter logic in order to incorporate this new duality of “Multiverse and No Multiverse,” your argument would seem more convincing. Instead, to deal with the paradoxes and everything else, she had to erase Zurvan and suppress Mashyana memories, preventing the universe from changing.



But oh well, I don’t think this is going anywhere. And I don’t like debating unless I have the source for everything I’m saying (the VNs and VFBs, in this case).

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Weak ass non dual scans.

Comeback when you achieved Chinamen level of ND.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I think the mistake here was assuming that everyone who has "Taikyoku" is a god.
The Tenma are not true gods, but they possess Taikyoku thanks to Yato, who shares his divine power with them (to cite an example).

I worded it badly likely but i guess god tier is more accurate. I don't mean throne god or anything.

But the problem with the opposite claim remains the same.
Taikyoku is not required to confront a god. Even though Magsarion shares characteristics of both Gudou and Hadou, he still does not possess Taikyoku.

I can argue due to Magsarion's prayer, he had Big bang around him but I feel its not super clear on what his generally entails. Madou has characteristics of both sides yet is neither after all. I'm not gonna use that as I'm saying Mags absorbed people who had big bang and considering he can use it to become a personality armor of muzan its not far off.

Based on everything I’ve written, it should be obvious that I’m well aware of Naraka and what it entails. My point is simply this: it’s counterproductive to present something as “absolute” or as “transcending all dualities” while using a scene that was specifically written to relativize the supposed absoluteness.
Not to mention that in the same CD drama, it’s implied the gods are still bound to certain dualistic notions (which could even be debated as not superior to the R>F notions).

Why would that be the issue as again whatever is on the lower floor which is basically everything below the throne and all concepts and non taiji laws. Its not vague on how the gods see reality and wouldn't be bounded by the dualistic notions of the lower floor they see as fiction. Naraka is above that and has his own rules which is the simple logic of the stronger subjugates the weak. Naraka is different from the reality we know as Shinza so its different. It doesn't contradict they are above all of the reality that make up that fiction which wouldn't include the throne.

2. I understand that gods shape the world as they please, but that’s precisely what defines the limits of the concepts that can exist within it. The world simply becomes a reflection of the concepts and principles embedded in the god’s deepest desire.

And these principles and concepts are fundamentally different from any random ideas or thoughts a character might have within the god’s domain. The example I gave with Avesta was precisely to demonstrate that. Several characters throughout the story speculate about the existence of the multiverse, but that doesn’t magically make the multiverse real or turn it into a concept implemented within the Throne.

Even when it was implemented, it required what the work itself defined as “a destruction and reconstruction”.

If that’s the case, how can we be certain that the Throne encompasses and transcends the notion of R > F (in its most radical sense) just because it’s notion mentioned a couple of times in the story?

3. I don’t think I went that far—I only said that it makes sense for the gods not to be truly absolute in the story, because the philosophical concepts their powers are based on isn’t absolute either.

4. Whether or not they are subject to the concept of dimensions is at the very least debatable...
I’d elaborate more on this point, but I don’t have access to the PC where I had PL, DI, and K3 installed, along with the VFBs.


5. The problem isn’t whether the destruction is instantaneous or not, but the fact that the very laws (And system of the throne) don’t allow for the existence of more than one universe—and this paradox, which could end everything, should in itself demonstrate that the duality framework Shinga operates within is narrow.

At least, in the way I understand what it means to transcend duality in the radical sense you’re suggesting, Shinga’s Throne should be able to accommodate the duality of “Multiverse” and “No Multiverse.” Or at the very least, if Shinga had shown the ability to alter logic in order to incorporate this new duality of “Multiverse and No Multiverse,” your argument would seem more convincing. Instead, to deal with the paradoxes and everything else, she had to erase Zurvan and suppress Mashyana memories, preventing the universe from changing.

2. Again if you call that a limit then you're putting a hard cap on everyone that doesn't explicitly mention higher dimensions which makes no sense. Its like saying that concept died completely with the god since they embodied that very concept by the end and are its very law.

3. I mean just saying unless the game goes more, using IRL isn't really gonna cut too much of it.

4. Why would they? Its part of the lower areas which the gods are unbounded by in the first place. Naraka is a different story.

5. We do remember Shinga elevated that very dualitic law to a god's level right? My point is normally it wouldn't have such a catastrophic effect on a god which my counter point is, Mithra's a case where her wish made something like dualism throne level. Same with Ren's time. It SHOULDN'T freeze something like the throne which is above such concepts yet his wish and law does that. I know Shinga bounded herself by her own law but that doesn't take away the thing I'm saying.

I think to say it better, Shinga's dualism isn't normally that strong and only encompassed the throne due to insanity shit where that wish elevates a law. Hence why Yakou made it clear something like fire or water wouldn't matter but if its embuded with Taiji like with dualism, it would shape the world in such a way.

Normal laws of reality = a painting to the throne level deities or anything in between.

Embuded with Taiji or the like = become throne level and can encompass reality if its hadou.

Weak ass non dual scans.

Comeback when you achieved Chinamen level of ND.

Dayum gonna get Chinamen'ed

Eh... I'm skeptical about that. What that statement actually says is that Varhram belongs to the rarest class (tier 7), which makes sense considering that in the context of the statement, it's referring to gacha rarity.

I don't think it's referring to Varhram being literally the rarest in Tier 7.

He wouldn't. Plus Vahram is a very strange way of getting to tier 7 in comparison anyway. Otherwise Masada would likely use 最強 instead of 最高. The former means highest and such. The latter is strongest. So its very blatant.

ワルフラーンは星七の最高レア。特級魔将は星五か な。

 

[Deriot2]

I worded it badly likely but i guess god tier is more accurate. I don't mean throne god or anything.

I can argue due to Magsarion's prayer, he had Big bang around him but I feel its not super clear on what his generally entails. Madou has characteristics of both sides yet is neither after all. I'm not gonna use that as I'm saying Mags absorbed people who had big bang and considering he can use it to become a personality armor of muzan its not far off.


Why would that be the issue as again whatever is on the lower floor which is basically everything below the throne and all concepts and non taiji laws. Its not vague on how the gods see reality and wouldn't be bounded by the dualistic notions of the lower floor they see as fiction. Naraka is above that and has his own rules which is the simple logic of the stronger subjugates the weak. Naraka is different from the reality we know as Shinza so its different. It doesn't contradict they are above all of the reality that make up that fiction which wouldn't include the throne.


2. Again if you call that a limit then you're putting a hard cap on everyone that doesn't explicitly mention higher dimensions which makes no sense. Its like saying that concept died completely with the god since they embodied that very concept by the end and are its very law.

3. I mean just saying unless the game goes more, using IRL isn't really gonna cut too much of it.

4. Why would they? Its part of the lower areas which the gods are unbounded by in the first place. Naraka is a different story.

5. We do remember Shinga elevated that very dualitic law to a god's level right? My point is normally it wouldn't have such a catastrophic effect on a god which my counter point is, Mithra's a case where her wish made something like dualism throne level. Same with Ren's time. It SHOULDN'T freeze something like the throne which is above such concepts yet his wish and law does that. I know Shinga bounded herself by her own law but that doesn't take away the thing I'm saying.

I think to say it better, Shinga's dualism isn't normally that strong and only encompassed the throne due to insanity shit where that wish elevates a law. Hence why Yakou made it clear something like fire or water wouldn't matter but if its embuded with Taiji like with dualism, it would shape the world in such a way.

Normal laws of reality = a painting to the throne level deities or anything in between.

Embuded with Taiji or the like = become throne level and can encompass reality if its hadou.


Dayum gonna get Chinamen'ed



He wouldn't. Plus Vahram is a very strange way of getting to tier 7 in comparison anyway. Otherwise Masada would likely use 最強 instead of 最高. The former means highest and such. The latter is strongest. So its very blatant.

ワルフラーンは星七の最高レア。特級魔将は星五か な。

It must be remembered that battles between Taikyoku function by denying the other’s reason (divinity) with one’s own, which also allows the effects of one's attacks to be engraved onto the opponent's core. This same logic applies to Gudou as well, with the difference that they require a more direct approach (physical contact or specifically focused attacks):



Even if Magsarion had possessed a Gudou-type Taikyoku, he should have killed Shinga the first time he blew her to pieces, because that kind of damage cannot be inflicted by one Taikyoku upon another without simultaneously engraving it onto the enemy’s core. That’s why, when Magsarion obtains Taikyoku, a single clean strike is enough to put Shinga to sleep.

1. Regarding the whole Naraka dilemma and everything else, I think you’re approaching it with a scaling logic that’s… rather strange, to say the least. Though I guess that’s pretty common around here, so I couldn’t really counter-argue without outright criticizing the categorization system itself, along with several of its frameworks that try to use philosophical models to scale characters. So there’s not much point in going too deep into this.

2. In fact... it’s more or less like you said. The concept of "higher dimensions", as seen in Paradise Lost, not exist in the later worlds. It’s not unusual for a concept introduced by one God to be completely absent in another Heaven. For example, in the Sixth Heaven, there was no concept of "life after death" at all, unlike in the Fourth and Fifth Heavens where such concepts did exist. (At most, one could say that the essence of those concepts remains like stubble in Taiji that the current God could use if desired, but they are not part of the world. They are merely shadows and memories.) The reason we can state that the throne of any post-Muzan God surpasses the cosmological structure seen in Paradise Lost is, I repeat, because it lies at a deeper level— and that invariably grants it a higher metaphysical status.

Though... one could even argue whether the higher dimensions in Paradise Lost were truly such grandiose structures to begin with.

3. Masada even contemplated the impermanence of the Taiji, so it’s not that simple either. But anyway, let’s leave this point there.

4. No comment (For the same reason mentioned in point 1).

5. This is actually the most relevant point. First of all, the fact that the Shinga throne does not allow the logical duality of "Multiverse" and "Non-multiverse" is already a problem in itself for the transduality you propose. And this isn’t something that can be fixed just because their law has reached the Throne.
But there is also the fact that the dualities mentioned in the Avesta are more elemental or complementary dualities (like water and fire) rather than logical dualities (which, if I understand the group's parameters correctly, are the ones that qualify to grant transduality).

On the other hand, characters with transduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them. Besides immunizing them against the dualities in question, this power also immunizes them against attempts to apply those dualities to them, as they would transcend the scope of the haxes that could do so.

For this ability, dualities refer to logical dualities where the duality is between "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. For example, fire and water are not a duality; the duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, or, alternately, existence and nonexistence or existence and void. However, not all verses follow this logic, and many may treat things not logically considered dualities - such as water and fire or time and space - as dualities, meaning what is and isn't a duality can change between verses.

Anyway, I’m surprised by how much they trivialize the throne’s expansion into the multiverse, when it’s something that involved the destruction and reconstruction of its system by Suigin.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Legend, get Shinza (Hajun) back to where they deserve!

 

[First_Witch]

This fodder verse is not getting back without you goobers learning japanese to a native level. Its just how the universe is

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

This fodder verse is not getting back without you goobers learning japanese to a native level. Its just how the universe is

Good. Red must suffer my headcanon until I learn Japanese and fold him there.

 

[Deriot2]

This fodder verse is not getting back without you goobers learning japanese to a native level. Its just how the universe is

Even though I don't know Japanese, I read K3 several years ago and Paradise Lost earlier this year (and a large part of Avesta in Japanese) using AI, a virtual Japanese dictionary, and a lot of patience. I wouldn't mind contributing, although honestly (and seeing how things are going with this publication), it would probably lead to endless discussions, which isn't exactly motivating.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Even though I don't know Japanese, I read K3 several years ago and Paradise Lost earlier this year (and a large part of Avesta in Japanese) using AI, a virtual Japanese dictionary, and a lot of patience. I wouldn't mind contributing, although honestly (and seeing how things are going with this publication), it would probably lead to endless discussions, which isn't exactly motivating.

MTL is prohibited on this wiki as far as I know. The correct approach would be to organize a set of scans and have the wiki's translators take care of it.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

In fact... it’s more or less like you said. The concept of "higher dimensions", as seen in Paradise Lost, not exist in the later worlds.

Rather, they were "retconned". Masada has mentioned in the past that the sephirot of the Tree of Life are equivalent to the path toward the Taikyokuza, representing the Keter. In theory, it should be something akin to the concept of singularity, but the main difference between the 2nd Heaven and the 4th Heaven is that while the sephirot are the "structure of the universe" (that is, they are within what one could define as “creation”) the singularity is external, representing the spiritual evolutionary path of God toward the origin point of the emanation of his hegemony.

 

[Deriot2]

MTL is prohibited on this wiki as far as I know. The correct approach would be to organize a set of scans and have the wiki's translators take care of it.

It’s curious, because I’ve been looking some accepted posts of Xuanhuan and Wuxia whose scans seem to be MTL.

Rather, they were "retconned". Masada has mentioned in the past that the sephirot of the Tree of Life are equivalent to the path toward the Taikyokuza, representing the Keter. In theory, it should be something akin to the concept of singularity, but the main difference between the 2nd Heaven and the 4th Heaven is that while the sephirot are the "structure of the universe" (that is, they are within what one could define as “creation”) the singularity is external, representing the spiritual evolutionary path of God toward the origin point of the emanation of his hegemony.

I know what you mean. It's a statement by Masada in the K3 VFB.



Certainly, Masada hadn’t fully developed his cosmological notions when he created Paradise Lost, but I don’t think it’s a retcon. The dimensions in Paradise Lost are more spiritual than physical in nature. The quintessence, to begin with, is spiritual energy (the equivalent of PL to Ewigkeit, distortions, and garyoku),
and governs the four elements that make up the material world. It’s also sometimes called “pre-existing matter,” if I’m not mistaken. With a bit of comparative philosophy, you realize it shares many similarities with the concept of singularity.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Certainly, Masada hadn’t fully developed his cosmological notions when he created Paradise Lost, but I don’t think it’s a retcon. The dimensions in Paradise Lost are more spiritual than physical in nature. The quintessence, to begin with, is spiritual energy and governs the four elements that make up the material world. It’s also sometimes called “pre-existing matter,” if I’m not mistaken. With a bit of comparative philosophy, you realize it shares many similarities with the concept of singularity.

Right. By retconned I meant more how the path to the Throne went from being part of creation (in fact, the Throne was Keter) to being entirely external and disconnected.

From an in-verse lore perspective, it's most likely that this change happened precisely because Suigin rewrote the Throne system.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Even if Magsarion had possessed a Gudou-type Taikyoku, he should have killed Shinga the first time he blew her to pieces, because that kind of damage cannot be inflicted by one Taikyoku upon another without simultaneously engraving it onto the enemy’s core. That’s why, when Magsarion obtains Taikyoku, a single clean strike is enough to put Shinga to sleep.

1. Regarding the whole Naraka dilemma and everything else, I think you’re approaching it with a scaling logic that’s… rather strange, to say the least. Though I guess that’s pretty common around here, so I couldn’t really counter-argue without outright criticizing the categorization system itself, along with several of its frameworks that try to use philosophical models to scale characters. So there’s not much point in going too deep into this.

2. In fact... it’s more or less like you said. The concept of "higher dimensions", as seen in Paradise Lost, not exist in the later worlds. It’s not unusual for a concept introduced by one God to be completely absent in another Heaven. For example, in the Sixth Heaven, there was no concept of "life after death" at all, unlike in the Fourth and Fifth Heavens where such concepts did exist. (At most, one could say that the essence of those concepts remains like stubble in Taiji that the current God could use if desired, but they are not part of the world. They are merely shadows and memories.) The reason we can state that the throne of any post-Muzan God surpasses the cosmological structure seen in Paradise Lost is, I repeat, because it lies at a deeper level— and that invariably grants it a higher metaphysical status.

Though... one could even argue whether the higher dimensions in Paradise Lost were truly such grandiose structures to begin with.

3. Masada even contemplated the impermanence of the Taiji, so it’s not that simple either. But anyway, let’s leave this point there.

4. No comment (For the same reason mentioned in point 1).

5. This is actually the most relevant point. First of all, the fact that the Shinga throne does not allow the logical duality of "Multiverse" and "Non-multiverse" is already a problem in itself for the transduality you propose. And this isn’t something that can be fixed just because their law has reached the Throne.
But there is also the fact that the dualities mentioned in the Avesta are more elemental or complementary dualities (like water and fire) rather than logical dualities (which, if I understand the group's parameters correctly, are the ones that qualify to grant transduality).

If we go by power yes. The thing as we noted is attribute...Madou's biggest problem is that its a very 1 v 1. And Gudou won't help as he needs to take the throne somehow. Observers were likely gonna interfere.

1. Let's not cuz naraka still vague but clearly superior to every god.

2. Tbf Last I checked some verse don't really need something like higher dimensions let alone infinite higher dimensions to reach outerversal like pokemon. So not really a point for issues. You even admits its on a higher metaphysical status anyway so the point stands that regardless if the concept applies the god would already be above the "fiction" know as reality with all its laws and concepts

3 and 4 yeah lets leave that

5. The law of the world (the "painting" known as Avesta) is made by Shinga. Again the narration makes it clear she herself possess it all. Every infinite duality is Shinga besides the one that she purposely sealed for herself. And again we have no idea how Merc did anything so the details are vague. In the end unless you can say one duality doesn't exist in Shinga's world which the narration said should be all then there's no real point.

Good. Red must suffer my headcanon until I learn Japanese and fold him there.

says the guy who can't even play Nikke on the ******* phone.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Tbf Last I checked some verse don't really need something like higher dimensions let alone infinite higher dimensions to reach outerversal like pokemon

Yeah because 1-A Pokemon is a wank

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

says the guy who can't even play Nikke on the ******* phone.

I'm too lazy :v

 

[Huesito88]

I'm too lazy :v

And Red is "The World's Unluckiest Person", there are no excuses

 

[Deriot2]

If we go by power yes. The thing as we noted is attribute...Madou's biggest problem is that its a very 1 v 1. And Gudou won't help as he needs to take the throne somehow. Observers were likely gonna interfere.

1. Let's not cuz naraka still vague but clearly superior to every god.

2. Tbf Last I checked some verse don't really need something like higher dimensions let alone infinite higher dimensions to reach outerversal like pokemon. So not really a point for issues. You even admits its on a higher metaphysical status anyway so the point stands that regardless if the concept applies the god would already be above the "fiction" know as reality with all its laws and concepts

3 and 4 yeah lets leave that

5. The law of the world (the "painting" known as Avesta) is made by Shinga. Again the narration makes it clear she herself possess it all. Every infinite duality is Shinga besides the one that she purposely sealed for herself. And again we have no idea how Merc did anything so the details are vague. In the end unless you can say one duality doesn't exist in Shinga's world which the narration said should be all then there's no real point.


says the guy who can't even play Nikke on the ******* phone.

1. My point was that Magsarion does not possess Taikyoku Gudou or Hadou because with either of the two he would have killed Shinga. Nothing more.

2. Yeah, well, I’m not entirely in agreement with that criterion, to begin with. But even if we apply it, it’s not like Shinza lacks elements that challenge the evaluation you want to give it.

3 (Really 5). The categories establish that what a work considers as “duality” can differ from what this group defines as the necessary “duality” to assign transduality. The dualities mentioned in the scans of the Mandala of Shinga, even if they are “infinite” dualities, are complementary rather than logical. Of course, one could argue that it even includes the duality of “logic and illogic,” but even if that were true, it is not at a level that allows for multiple levels of truth because, I reiterate, if that were the case, its universe would not be threatened by simple temporal paradoxes (which involve levels of contradiction far lower than).

The details with Mercurius may be vague, but the fact that the throne’s expansion from a universe to a multiverse required profound structural changes is there.

It’s hard to consider the Throne as “absolute” when Masada himself thought it possible for worlds to emerge outside his system, develop their own Thrones, and ultimately culminate in a war between multiverses. Although he never developed this idea (which doesn’t negate its implications), he also mentioned that Mercurius destroy Satanael in a similar manner.

Q: It is said that Mercurius, the Fourth God, expanded his domain of the Throne, but do there still exist universes that have not been incorporated into that system?
Also, if they do exist, what kind of existence do those places have?

A: At present, there are none. However, I believe it is possible for new ones to come into existence.
In such a case, it would mean that there is a God of the Throne who has seized (or created) that alternate universe of possibilities, which would inevitably lead to war.
Mercurius, the God of the Fourth Heaven, destroyed the Third Heaven in a similar manner.

What does Masada mean when he says that Mercurius destroyed the Third Heaven in a similar way?
Although the details are unknown, it is known that Satanael used a temporal paradox (Astaroth) to overthrow Muzan. (In retrospect, this event reinforces the entire perspective presented in Avesta about how catastrophic a paradox can be.) This reaffirmed the temporal axis, allowing timelines to start diverging and creating other dimensions that, in some way, the Throne did not recognize within its system.




Another factor that may have influenced the creation of the multiverse was perhaps the very desire of Myojo to imagining a world where someone (probably his sister, a new character not mentioned in PL) continued to live. The point is that something came from one of these unrecognized dimensions and infected Lament (who bears a strong resemblance to a certain NEET...).

Lament
The long-haired man shown in the illustration on the right.
He is the first Gomorrah. His will has been consumed by “something” that came flying in from another dimension, and he’s gradually beginning to fall apart. He’s the leader of Imora and is locked in conflict with his twin sister—and their sibling rivalry will decide the fate of the Third Throne.

Explanation
Ignorance is a sin. The unknown causes fear in humans and drives them to commit foolish acts.
The Third Divine Throne, the Omniscient Heaven, born from this concept, was attacked by something "unknown."
This is the irrationality that Satanael, who became a God, could not ignore...
If she is still alive, perhaps that desire could lead to a possible universe.

In short, the multiverse wasn’t just anything. Its introduction involved many factors, several of which challenge the “absolute” notion some have about the Throne around here. I think the problem is that people forget that the Throne, before any of the metaphysical speculations seen, is a technological device with its own delimited system and functionality. As the ages have passed, that system has been modified, expanded, and evolved.

Q: Regarding the Throne system, I recall there was a mention of "creating the Throne." What was the original idea or inspiration behind its creation?

A: During the era of the Interstellar War, based on theories related to the so-called warp, it is set that this was an accidental byproduct born from the concepts of "time leap" and "unification of the universe."

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@TISSG7Redgrave

HA! I ******* KNEW I WASN'T WRONG! MY MEMORY ISN'T THAT BAD!

Take it in your face, that's what you get for not reading as a typical YGO player

I ain't letting you live this one down

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

HA! I ******* KNEW I WASN'T WRONG! MY MEMORY ISN'T THAT BAD!

Take it in your face, that's what you get for not reading as a typical YGO player

I ain't letting you live this one down

And? He did it as a god so...what's your point? It's not the same level of paradox as when he was human

1. My point was that Magsarion does not possess Taikyoku Gudou or Hadou because with either of the two he would have killed Shinga. Nothing more.

2. Yeah, well, I’m not entirely in agreement with that criterion, to begin with. But even if we apply it, it’s not like Shinza lacks elements that challenge the evaluation you want to give it.

3 (Really 5). The categories establish that what a work considers as “duality” can differ from what this group defines as the necessary “duality” to assign transduality. The dualities mentioned in the scans of the Mandala of Shinga, even if they are “infinite” dualities, are complementary rather than logical. Of course, one could argue that it even includes the duality of “logic and illogic,” but even if that were true, it is not at a level that allows for multiple levels of truth because, I reiterate, if that were the case, its universe would not be threatened by simple temporal paradoxes (which involve levels of contradiction far lower than).

The details with Mercurius may be vague, but the fact that the throne’s expansion from a universe to a multiverse required profound structural changes is there.

It’s hard to consider the Throne as “absolute” when Masada himself thought it possible for worlds to emerge outside his system, develop their own Thrones, and ultimately culminate in a war between multiverses. Although he never developed this idea (which doesn’t negate its implications), he also mentioned that Mercurius destroy Satanael in a similar manner.

1. Gudou won't work by virtue of how Naraka plays their hand. They wouldn't allow such a thing. Mags has Hadou traits from other factors.

3. How...does that even make any sense? I've been wrapping my head around it but the more you use "logical dualities" the less it makes sense. Like there are infinite dualities plain and simple. You're just making a big fuss over an extreme straight forward point because it's there...how much elaboration do you need for that?? It even spells out what was missing when needed so why the blood soaked shit does it matter? And I don't think it was as simple considering the hoops that happened. Been a while since I've seen vol 2 tbf.

Ok and? It expanded yes but does that mean it should be lower by that logic? Cuz it seems like Merc messed with it so badly it did that.

I never said the throne is absolute. Its above the "fiction" known as the shinza reality which would have these dualities.

In short, the multiverse wasn’t just anything. Its introduction involved many factors, several of which challenge the “absolute” notion some have about the Throne around here. I think the problem is that people forget that the Throne, before any of the metaphysical speculations seen, is a technological device with its own delimited system and functionality. As the ages have passed, that system has been modified, expanded, and evolved.

Again the issue is that we have no idea on the throne's origin first. It's a summary yes but then again so was Naraka being an individual before turning to 5. If we try using aditya's thing, the issue becomes we don't have enough. Once again why in the bloody sack are you claiming I said the throne is absolute? The narrations I gave are about the laws being above reality. I only said its above every single thing in the heaven's world. Which should include all these concepts being introduced. The fact you even think I meant to say "absolute" for the throne is not the point...Because I even know Naraka...which is already a damp on that...does it contradict a potential High 1-A rating if its not absolute? No. Last I check you don't need to be "absolute" to be High 1-A. That's for tier 0 which is NOT what I'm going to touch with a 10 giga meter pole

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I don't see the High 1-A using this kind of argument. If they do, it's very likely it won't pass a serious revision because it's full of holes.

I wouldn't like Shinza to fall below 1-A again because of a poorly done revision, like it's happened before in the past.

 

[Deriot2]

And? He did it as a god so...what's your point? It's not the same level of paradox as when he was human


1. Gudou won't work by virtue of how Naraka plays their hand. They wouldn't allow such a thing. Mags has Hadou traits from other factors.

3. How...does that even make any sense? I've been wrapping my head around it but the more you use "logical dualities" the less it makes sense. Like there are infinite dualities plain and simple. You're just making a big fuss over an extreme straight forward point because it's there...how much elaboration do you need for that?? It even spells out what was missing when needed so why the blood soaked shit does it matter? And I don't think it was as simple considering the hoops that happened. Been a while since I've seen vol 2 tbf.

Ok and? It expanded yes but does that mean it should be lower by that logic? Cuz it seems like Merc messed with it so badly it did that.

I never said the throne is absolute. Its above the "fiction" known as the shinza reality which would have these dualities.



Again the issue is that we have no idea on the throne's origin first. It's a summary yes but then again so was Naraka being an individual before turning to 5. If we try using aditya's thing, the issue becomes we don't have enough. Once again why in the bloody sack are you claiming I said the throne is absolute? The narrations I gave are about the laws being above reality. I only said its above every single thing in the heaven's world. Which should include all these concepts being introduced. The fact you even think I meant to say "absolute" for the throne is not the point...Because I even know Naraka...which is already a damp on that...does it contradict a potential High 1-A rating if its not absolute? No. Last I check you don't need to be "absolute" to be High 1-A. That's for tier 0 which is NOT what I'm going to touch with a 10 giga meter pole

To claim that Muzan was erased by Satanael using a paradox simply because he ascended, and that this somehow makes the paradox "outerversal," is, first of all, to overlook the fact that, in Avesta, paradoxes are presented as a danger in and of themselves due to what they imply within a Throne that contains a unidirectional flow of time. And secondly, it also ignores the fact that Satanael resorted to a paradox precisely because, in a direct fight, he had no chance against Muzan.






1. I think we are misunderstanding each other… Let’s just leave it at that.

3. The examples of dualities you gave from the Avesta are complementary. Assuming I haven’t misunderstood of categories the wiki (since I’m not fully familiar with them), transcending this kind of duality does not qualify as transduality.

Btw, neither the concepts nor the dualities in the Avesta are truly infinite.

First of all, and reiterating something I have already said: the statement refers only to the concepts and complementary dualities that exist within Ahura Mazda. It does not refer to every conceivable concept (let alone inconceivable ones), but only to the concepts conceived within that world.

白と黒、青と赤、光と闇、表と裏。この世に存在するありとあらゆる二元的な、鬩ぎ合い相克する現象、概念、残らずすべてがそこにあった。

White and black, blue and red, light and darkness, front and back.
All dualistic phenomena and concepts that exist in this world, constantly struggling and conflicting, without exception, were there.

Second, the existence of infinite concepts is never mentioned. Assuming these "colors" represent concepts, the Japanese text expresses it more like “there were so many that they seemed infinite” (と思えるほど). This statement is more of a impression than an objective categorical assertion.

流動し、流転して、万華鏡のごとく形を変えながら回り続ける綾模様の大曼荼羅。無限と思えるほどの色に溢れ、だというのに独立しているものが一つとしてない。敵(つがい)となる何がしかが、絶対的な法のもとに必ず定められている。

A great mandala of interwoven patterns that flowed, turned, and constantly changed shape like a kaleidoscope. Overflowing with colors that seemed infinite, and yet, there wasn’t a single independent entity. Every opposing pair was always determined by an absolute law.

Now, I am aware that in some other scenes it is stated more categorically that there are "infinite colors," but given this precedent, I think the most reasonable assumption is that "infinite" here is merely a rhetorical expression meant to indicate something very numerous (And I say 'more reasonable' because the opposite would present many inconsistencies).

When I say that the Throne “is not absolute,” I don’t just mean its role within the story itself, but also the notion of absoluteness you believe it holds: a structure beyond all temporal, spatial, and dualistic limitations.

In short...
It doesn’t make much sense for a structure already assumed to be “above the concept of dimensions” to need to restructure itself in order to accommodate a multiverse (or any other form of time).
Also, the fact that it’s not entirely impossible for worlds to emerge beyond its control is a huge red flag.

And this is only speaking from the physical aspect.
Let’s not even get started on the metaphysical side, because things aren’t looking much better there either: From that perspective, the gods are contingent, conditioned, and impermanent.
.

But well, if on this Wiki any mention of “transcending the concept of dimensions” (Or similar) is enough for a character to be outerversal, I’m not going to argue with that. I don’t agree, but hey, when in Rome...

Just don’t think I have any hatred towards Shinza — it’s one of my favorite sagas.
In fact, I also don’t believe Pokémon is Outerversal, even though it’s one of my favorite sagas too (even more than Shinza).

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

In fact, I also don’t believe Pokémon is Outerversal, even though it’s one of my favorite sagas too (even more than Shinza).

Sigma.

 

[Huesito88]

the throne was stated to be a hyperdimension that is an anti feat for 1-A

Robo now is not the time for this

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

the throne was stated to be a hyperdimension that is an anti feat for 1-A

have you learned nothing?