SHINJUTSU: Otsusuki abilities revision

[karo_senpaii]

Hi so today I'm trying to revise an otsutsuki ability we currently have on the wiki, I'm talking about karma
For Karma it should have soul manipulation, mid-godly to possibly high-godly resurrection.
The karma is noted as being the core reason why the otsutsuki clan members are very hard to kill as even if you killed them as long as they have implanted someone with the karma they will always come back howbeit overtime. The method used is it takes the information that makes up the body and uses it to overwrite the body of the host or new vessel, at least that is what is accepted right now but i believe it takes not only the info of the body but the mind and soul as well.

The first detailed explanation of how karma works came from amado who is not only one of the smartest people on earth literally but also worked extensively on karma and he will be one of the focal points in my argument.





Yes i know the description of karma in this scan seems to imply once they die their soul would just migrate to an available vessel but that's just a half truth or just part of what karma does but the scan below is what makes me believe there is much more going on here.





As you can see from the above scan amado is confirming something he already knew with his own eyes that when one vessel has undergone resurrection , all other vessels no matter how many had been prepared prior their karma is immediately removed and this most likely due to preventing duplicates of the same person. We know karma works through the otsutsuki body overriding the current hosts and then snuffing out the person's soul and the otsutsuki soul then takes over. Now this will only happen if the karma not only takes information of the body but also the soul as well as if not then a duplicate won't be possible. That way you'd have say multiple ishikki walking over the place.
The second piece of evidence is akebi, amado's daughter.





The scans below denote a couple of things. Amado was able to preserve akebi brain and fully convert it into data. Not literally but you get what i mean. He was trying to use the info he had to recreate akebi thinking as a scientist all that is neede is her brain and a new body. But he repeatedly failed as while the new akebi had all the memories and such, she was still not akebi as her soul just wasn't there. After his encounter with jigen he realised that karma was almost identical to what he was doing. The key difference was while he could just copy the brain or the memories, the karma took it further to as far as the soul itself and through that he is hoping akebi could be brought back. This is more evidence to show clearly that the soul is involved in the information. With that i can say using information to recreate the mind, body and soul is textbook mid-godly regen. Karma information manipulation should also be type 2. The high-godly regen i wasn't quite sure as technically when an otsutsuki is destroyed even if they were destroyed to the level of their information being erased the karma effectively still has a back of said information in another body and would then resurrect them from there, that also sounds like High-godly resurrection to me.

EDiT: high godly and info type 2 was scrapped due to reasons pointed out to me. So just mid godly

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

wouldnt this also add corruption type 2 for karma as its also rewriting the mind and soul using data which is non-physical?

 

[Apotheosis69]

That is at max Mid Godly. Because it still Relies on said Information/Data of their Karma…

Now IF their Information/Data is erased/deleted/destroyed and they can still come back, THEN that would be High-Godly (Information/Data)

Note: this isnt a vote or anything. Just a correction

 

[Godernet]

Just to be sure, are you saying that Karma should naturally have information type 2 due to its status as a Shinjutsu? Or that it should because it’s the information of an Otsutsuki’s mind, body, and soul compressed into data?

Im guessing the ladder based on the last paragraph but if it’s either of those things then I disagree with High Godly, because the former would need to be proven and the ladder just isn’t info manipulation, as it’s not literal fundamental information (think the laws that govern reality for example) in this case, just compressed data, which even the info manip page creates a distinction between.

Edit: also yeah what Apotheosis said, High Godly Reincarnation would be like if Isshiki’s Mind, Body, and Soul + all of his Karma (assuming it was Info Manip) were all destroyed and he still came back.

 

[karo_senpaii]

That is at max Mid Godly. Because it still Relies on said Information/Data of their Karma…

Now IF their Information/Data is erased/deleted/destroyed and they can still come back, THEN that would be High-Godly (Information/Data)

Note: this isnt a vote or anything. Just a correction

Just to be sure, are you saying that Karma should naturally have information type 2 due to its status as a Shinjutsu? Or that it should because it’s the information of an Otsutsuki’s mind, body, and soul compressed into data?

Im guessing the ladder based on the last paragraph but if it’s either of those things then I disagree with High Godly, because the former would need to be proven and the ladder just isn’t info manipulation, as it’s not literal fundamental information (think the laws that govern reality for example) in this case, just compressed data, which even the info manip page creates a distinction between.

Edit: also yeah what Apotheosis said, High Godly Reincarnation would be like if Isshiki’s Mind, Body, and Soul + his Karma (assuming it was Info Manip) were all destroyed and he still came back.

It's the latter and actually you're right. I'm gonna scrap the high godly

 

[DavidTPPM]

Only issue I think there could be is that nothing here seems to be implying the soul is created from nothing which is a requirement for mid-godly.
The fact that without extra karmas disappearing there would be duplicates doesn't prove each karma creates its own soul, since Akebi here technically proves you can create a living person without their soul. So there's no reason to believe that the duplicate personalities here wouldn't just be soulless.

On the other hand there's the whole Momoshiki and Kawaki stuff. Momoshikis soul has been clearly clinging to Borutos body from moment he imposed karma on it. Meanwhile Kawaki never seemed to have that issue even when he transformed into his own horned state, something that would normally bring out Momoshikis soul in Borutos case. The only reason we can really deduce here is that since Isshikis soul already occupied Jigens body it couldn't take over Kawaki but that'd also mean Kawaki didn't produce an extra Isshiki soul.

So TLDR;
I don’t think there's any solid evidence the soul and mind are created from nothing here while there is a solid reason to believe the soul just migrates to a new vessel.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Only issue I think there could be is that nothing here seems to be implying the soul is created from nothing which is a requirement for mid-godly.
The fact that without extra karmas disappearing there would be duplicates doesn't prove each karma creates its own soul, since Akebi here technically proves you can create a living person without their soul. So there's no reason to believe that the duplicate personalities here wouldn't just be soulless.

On the other hand there's the whole Momoshiki and Kawaki stuff. Momoshikis soul has been clearly clinging to Borutos body from moment he imposed karma on it. Meanwhile Kawaki never seemed to have that issue even when he transformed into his own horned state, something that would normally bring out Momoshikis soul in Borutos case. The only reason we can really deduce here is that since Isshikis soul already occupied Jigens body it couldn't take over Kawaki but that'd also mean Kawaki didn't produce an extra Isshiki soul.

So TLDR;
I don’t think there's any solid evidence the soul and mind are created from nothing here while there is a solid reason to believe the soul just migrates to a new vessel.

I'm not saying the soul is created form nothing. The soul is created from information from karma. Akebi is not a defeater but actually supports my claim instead. As if the duplicates could be souless then karma would essentially be the same thing as what Amado was doing. He would basically just be wasting his time. Basically the whole plot of bringing akebi back would be irrelevant coz she'd also be souless because her soul is already gone and nothing would bring her back. Meanwhile Amado seems to be sure after studying karma and how it works that akebi would in fact come back with a soul.

There is a reason why I said the soul migrating is a half truth. Karma does contain a back up but if the original soul already exists then it's more or less not necessary.
Kawaki never had that issue because his own karma had not been fully processed as that would be when the problem of ishikki should would become a factor.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm not saying the soul is created form nothing. The soul is created from information from karma.

Which is not supported by anything. As far as we know the data from karma only transfers the DNA of an Otsutsuki. Hence why when Isshiki died Kawaki retained the 80% Otsutsuki body but didn't keep 80% of Isshikis soul within his body.
Similarly Boruto didn't just have >80% of Momoshikis soul as the data extracted, he had his entire soul from the start.

Akebi is not a defeater but actually supports my claim instead. As if the duplicates could be souless then karma would essentially be the same thing as what Amado was doing. He would basically just be wasting his time. Basically the whole plot of bringing akebi back would be irrelevant coz she'd also be souless because her soul is already gone and nothing would bring her back. Meanwhile Amado seems to be sure after studying karma and how it works that akebi would in fact come back with a soul.

No because that assumesALL bodies are soulless where I'm just saying the duplicates would be.

Hell if the karma created an entirely new soul then what it wouldn't even be Akebi. It would be an identical clone, just like what Amado was doing, while real Akebis soul would still be in the pure lands. If Amados goal is the true, REAL Akebi then the idea karma creates a duplicate soul is pretty contradictory to his actual goal.

There is a reason why I said the soul migrating is a half truth. Karma does contain a back up but if the original soul already exists then it's more or less not necessary.

How would it be unnecessary? Karma completely recreates the body of the Otsutsuki. The body they spent millenia slowly evolving would be completely gone here. Unless they want to start from scratch every time they reincarnate, it absolutely is necessary mid godly or low godly.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Which is not supported by anything. As far as we know the data from karma only transfers the DNA of an Otsutsuki. Hence why when Isshiki died Kawaki retained the 80% Otsutsuki body but didn't keep 80% of Isshikis soul within his body.
Similarly Boruto didn't just have >80% of Momoshikis soul as the data extracted, he had his entire soul from the start.

No because that assumesALL bodies are soulless where I'm just saying the duplicates would be.

Hell if the karma created an entirely new soul then what it wouldn't even be Akebi. It would be an identical clone, just like what Amado was doing, while real Akebis soul would still be in the pure lands. If Amados goal is the true, REAL Akebi then the idea karma creates a duplicate soul is pretty contradictory to his actual goal.

How would it be unnecessary? Karma completely recreates the body of the Otsutsuki. The body they spent millenia slowly evolving would be completely gone here. Unless they want to start from scratch every time they reincarnate, it absolutely is necessary mid godly or low godly.

1. I already said that if the original soul hasn't been destroyed there is no reason for another to be recreated hence kawaki having zero percent of ishikki soul.

2. Here is the thing. Both momoshiki, Amado and ishikki said once there is no vessel anchoring the soul then the soul can't stay in the living world and that's the way to kill an otsusuki for good. Akebi doesn't have any vessel implanted with karma for her. Her soul is in the pure lands. Yet somehow she is still going to come back. If you cannot come back once your soul isn't anchored to the living world then the only probable answer is the should would be recreated. It doesn't also conflict with Amado's goal..His problem isn't it being a duplicate. His problem directly stated is that what he creates has no personality. Whether the soul is a duplicate or not is not really relevant to him.
In fact by your logic akebi is never coming back because we know karma can't help you bring back a soul if they are already in the pure lands. That's why lack of vessel means by by.

3. No I mean recreating a soul if the first one wasn't destroyed yet is not necessary. That's what I'm saying

 

[DavidTPPM]

1. I already said that if the original soul hasn't been destroyed there is no reason for another to be recreated hence kawaki having zero percent of ishikki soul.

That's an awfully convenient assumption given no soul has ever been erased in all of Naruto.

But it's not even true because that means it literally CAN'T be mid godly. Karma can only be placed by a living Otsutsuki meaning their soul hasn't been erased yet. This means no karma will ever the soul and mind because like you said it's unnecessary as one already exists.

2. Here is the thing. Both momoshiki, Amado and ishikki said once there is no vessel anchoring the soul then the soul can't stay in the living world and that's the way to kill an otsusuki for good. Akebi doesn't have any vessel implanted with karma for her. Her soul is in the pure lands. Yet somehow she is still going to come back. If you cannot come back once your soul isn't anchored to the living world then the only probable answer is the should would be recreated.

That's just a baseless assumption though. An Otsutsuki can't come back after their karmas are gone because THEY CAN'T PLACE A KARMA. They're dead so the thing they need for their souls to reincarnate us impossible to create.
But Amado is using an alive Otsutsuki to place Akebis karma on someone. He's creating the vessel for Akebis already existing soul even after her death which Otsutsuki normally can't do.

It doesn't also conflict with Amado's goal..His problem isn't it being a duplicate. His problem directly stated is that what he creates has no personality. Whether the soul is a duplicate or not is not really relevant to him.

No he verbatim says it wasn't "just her personality" but it seemed more like her humanity itself was gone. He said it seems human consciousness is more than just an aggregate of memories.

And what did we see in Naruto? That your consciousness is tied to your soul. An edo body made out of paper could still possess the consciousness of a human when all it truly possessed was their soul.

In fact by your logic akebi is never coming back because we know karma can't help you bring back a soul if they are already in the pure lands.

That's just straight up pure headcanon. We do NOT know that karma can't bring back a soul from the pure lands. Again an Otsutsuki not being able to reincarnate when they're in the pure lands isn't because the karma can't bring them back but because they can't even create a karma to begin with.

Also even inferior human-made ninjutsu like rinne tensei or edo tensei can bring a soul from the pure lands with as little as a drop of blood, to say an Otsutsuki shinjutsu that contains all of Otsutsukis data can't wouldn't even make sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll wait for more input.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Disagree per David’s reasons and ones I’ve shared on disc, it really doesn’t seem like existential aspects are recreated from nothing

 

[karo_senpaii]

That's an awfully convenient assumption given no soul has ever been erased in all of Naruto.

But it's not even true because that means it literally CAN'T be mid godly. Karma can only be placed by a living Otsutsuki meaning their soul hasn't been erased yet. This means no karma will ever the soul and mind because like you said it's unnecessary as one already exists.

That's just a baseless assumption though. An Otsutsuki can't come back after their karmas are gone because THEY CAN'T PLACE A KARMA. They're dead so the thing they need for their souls to reincarnate us impossible to create.
But Amado is using an alive Otsutsuki to place Akebis karma on someone. He's creating the vessel for Akebis already existing soul even after her death which Otsutsuki normally can't do.

No he verbatim says it wasn't "just her personality" but it seemed more like her humanity itself was gone. He said it seems human consciousness is more than just an aggregate of memories.

And what did we see in Naruto? That your consciousness is tied to your soul. An edo body made out of paper could still possess the consciousness of a human when all it truly possessed was their soul.

That's just straight up pure headcanon. We do NOT know that karma can't bring back a soul from the pure lands. Again an Otsutsuki not being able to reincarnate when they're in the pure lands isn't because the karma can't bring them back but because they can't even create a karma to begin with.

Also even inferior human-made ninjutsu like rinne tensei or edo tensei can bring a soul from the pure lands with as little as a drop of blood, to say an Otsutsuki shinjutsu that contains all of Otsutsukis data can't wouldn't even make sense.

1. A living otsusuki still implants karma on someone yet still has mid godly resurrection because while their body has not been completely destroyed yet, if it does get completely destroyed they would still come back because they have copied their body in their new vessel. It's exactly the same thing , here if their mind , soul and body has been destroyed on can be created again via information from the karma.

2. Two of your points seem to be the same so I'll say them as one. If it is true that karma can indeed bring back an otsusuki from the pure land s but what hinders them is there is simply no one to implant their karma in them, the moment Amado restored kawaki karma ishikki should have immediately been back as he now has a vessel. The data has not changed, his information for his body is still what is in kawaki karma but he can't come back because he simply can't. Amado description of ishikki power still there but he is no more there just further proves my point. Ishikki should never have been there in the first place coz he never got resurrected in kawaki .


3. Do you remember the first time Amado used personality? He was referring to the copies that would be created from karma, implying they wouldn't just be souless beings. Now to explain better.
Amado says that ishikki promised that he would revive akebi. He then says he suspected that he was probably not even going to do that so he then studied karma himself. Upon extensively studying it he discovered it was identical to his own process. This is important why? Amado process does not involve recreating flesh from data. Amado just manually prepares a body down for where he would transfer the data or consciousness of akebi. So the comparison he was making here was in relation to the consciousness as information which karma would overlay on the host. He then noted that karma took it a step further as while his the human won't still exist, just a body with memories, in karma case the person ,mind, soul and body would be back. Which means karma is not only just overlaying information of memories or the mind on a host, it is also overlaying information of the soul itself.


3. The ninjutsu stuff is irrelevant. Just because it's Shinjutsu does not mean it is always better. The rinnengan is actually arguably a Shinjutsu so let's not even dwell on that.

 

[DavidTPPM]

1. A living otsusuki still implants karma on someone yet still has mid godly resurrection because while their body has not been completely destroyed yet, if it does get completely destroyed they would still come back because they have copied their body in their new vessel. It's exactly the same thing , here if their mind , soul and body has been destroyed on can be created again via information from the karma.

Based on what? There's no evidence of complete soul recreation.

2. Two of your points seem to be the same so I'll say them as one. If it is true that karma can indeed bring back an otsusuki from the pure land s but what hinders them is there is simply no one to implant their karma in them, the moment Amado restored kawaki karma ishikki should have immediately been back as he now has a vessel.

Actually the exact opposite lol. If the karma recreates the soul, then the moment Kawakis karma has been recreated it should have also started producing Isshikis soul.

You said it hasn't been doing that before because Isshikis soul was already existing in the real world and bound to Jigen but that's no longer the case, so by your own argument Kawaki should have instantly gained a copy of Isshikis soul when his karma was recreated.

3. Do you remember the first time Amado used personality? He was referring to the copies that would be created from karma, implying they wouldn't just be souless beings.

Again the issue with Akebi isn't just personality, Amado says that verbatim. It's consciousness and humanity.

Now to explain better.
Amado says that ishikki promised that he would revive akebi. He then says he suspected that he was probably not even going to do that so he then studied karma himself. Upon extensively studying it he discovered it was identical to his own process. This is important why? Amado process does not involve recreating flesh from data. Amado just manually prepares a body down for where he would transfer the data or consciousness of akebi. So the comparison he was making here was in relation to the consciousness as information which karma would overlay on the host. He then noted that karma took it a step further as while his the human won't still exist, just a body with memories, in karma case the person ,mind, soul and body would be back. Which means karma is not only just overlaying information of memories or the mind on a host, it is also overlaying information of the soul itself.

Uhhh you do realize karma overlays the exact same information that Amados process did right? Like the difference is the process not the data.

3. The ninjutsu stuff is irrelevant. Just because it's Shinjutsu does not mean it is always better. The rinnengan is actually arguably a Shinjutsu so let's not even dwell on that.

It's not irrelevant because you're portraying summoning souls from the pure lands as impossible while even vastly inferior beings like humans could come up with ways to achieve that.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Based on what? There's no evidence of complete soul recreation.

Actually the exact opposite lol. If the karma recreates the soul, then the moment Kawakis karma has been recreated it should have also started producing Isshikis soul.

You said it hasn't been doing that before because Isshikis soul was already existing in the real world and bound to Jigen but that's no longer the case, so by your own argument Kawaki should have instantly gained a copy of Isshikis soul when his karma was recreated.

Again the issue with Akebi isn't just personality, Amado says that verbatim. It's consciousness and humanity.

Uhhh you do realize karma overlays the exact same information that Amados process did right? Like the difference is the process not the data.

It's not irrelevant because you're portraying summoning souls from the pure lands as impossible while even vastly inferior beings like humans could come up with ways to achieve that.

1. Uhhm no it won't, the original soul hasn't been destroyed. It's still there. And I know what you want to say next "it applies to akebi". Not really coz Amado is the one giving instructions to karma this time.

2. I didn't add the bound part. You did, all I said was the original still exist so no need for another. Whether ishikki is still bound or not it doesn't change this.

3. I didn't say it's just personality. I was trying to tell you the things missing in Amado process that are in karma. Like you said consciousness and humanity

4. No, Amado just directly states that the domain of the gods, where he can't reach is the extra that karma does, he's talking about her "consciousness and humanity" like you say but I call it mind and soul


5. The rinnengan is not a humanity thing. It's still an otsusuki thing and possibly even a Shinjutsu which is why I said we should not be using that as an argument

 

[DavidTPPM]

The way you respond makes it really difficult to tell which argument you're actually replying to man.

1. Uhhm no it won't, the original soul hasn't been destroyed. It's still there.

If a soul still existing is enough to make karma not create a new soul, then the entire duplicates argument completely falls apart.

Because now according to you, the potential duplicates would HAVE to be soulless since karma doesn't create a soul as long as another soul exists. And them being soulless completely nukes your only potential argument about karma creating souls.

And I know what you want to say next "it applies to akebi". Not really coz Amado is the one giving instructions to karma this time.

How's that any different? As far as we know all Amado did was add Akebis data to Kawakis karma.

And if the difference is made by Amado then karma normally can't duplicate a soul and that's something only Amado can make it do so once again you're shooting yourself in the foot.

2. I didn't add the bound part. You did, all I said was the original still exist so no need for another. Whether ishikki is still bound or not it doesn't change this.

I have no idea what you're replying to here.

3. I didn't say it's just personality. I was trying to tell you the things missing in Amado process that are in karma. Like you said consciousness and humanity

Yeah things that get restored by putting Akebis soul back to her body. No soul duplication/regeneration needed.

4. No, Amado just directly states that the domain of the gods, where he can't reach is the extra that karma does, he's talking about her "consciousness and humanity" like you say but I call it mind and soul

Again no idea what you're replying to because you're making random bullet points instead of actually quoting stuff.

5. The rinnengan is not a humanity thing. It's still an otsusuki thing and possibly even a Shinjutsu which is why I said we should not be using that as an argument

Crazy how you coincidentally ignored edo tensei.

Dude you just generally don't have any evidence implying karma creates a completely new soul and mind. And the more we talk the more you just seem to contradict your own arguments.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Will respond later

 

[karo_senpaii]

I actually am starting to see some holes in my arguments tbh. Will request this before closed while I gather my thoughts again

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, instead of regeneration it seems that the soul itself in the verse may have a type 2 information nature. Karma is not regenerating the soul but rather backing it up and downloading it which means that the soul itself is a file. And there are several demonstrations of how the soul is fundamental to the reality it governs (body) such as when Orochimaru had his soul's arms cut off and with that they lost its functionality, or the Edo Tensei which places a person's soul in a formless body and that body takes the form of that person's soul which is a beautiful example of rewriting the body's information, but it needs to be further explored and I think the work supports this idea a lot, and Kishimoto has also worked with this concept in Samurai 8

 

[Kayzz]

Right now, there is no evidence that Soul is recreated by karma.

Not denying there could be a possibility but it's not available.

The only thing confirmed to create a soul is
- the Yin Yang Manipulation of Sage of Six Paths. It's possibly the reason why tailed beast can revive even after soul destruction.

 

[Kayzz]

Though to be fair, it's not stated how Akebi's soul is going to be revived.

- There's a possibility her soul is revived from the pure lands.

- There's a possibility her soul is recreated just from the genetic data in the Karma, ignoring her soul in the pure lands.

However, what we see on panel feats concerning the karma has always been Soul Transfer.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I have no problem with the above article because we have this scan.

Whike I do still believe karma recreates the soul I do think my arguments are a bit mumbled rn. I will retry this at a latter time

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Not seeing any reason for this to go beyond its current level of regeneration.

 

[Godernet]

Pretty sure he said he wanted to brush up on some of the arguments on the topic on a later date, due to some stuff that was pointed out, if anything, this thread should probably just be closed for the time being.

Or if Karo wants, he can eventually make a whole new thread altogether, that's his call tho.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Pretty sure he said he wanted to brush up on some of the arguments on the topic on a later date, due to some stuff that was pointed out, if anything, this thread should probably just be closed for the time being.

Or if Karo wants, he can eventually make a whole new thread altogether, that's his call tho.

Yeah I'd prefer to make a new thread