Setting up some rules for Toon Force

[ArbitraryNumbers]

So the thing that sparked this issue in my mind was Gumball's Multi-Galaxy level durability feat, and how it went unnoticed for an unacceptably long amount of time.

We need some rules and regulations regarding Toon Force to ensure that this kind of leniency with cartoon characters has some control placed on it. Many people seem to think that outliers don't exist in cartoons for some reason. My proposal is that we discuss to add some guidelines and criteria for Toon Force and add it to the page, as some people have way too much fun ignoring some general rules of consistency when it comes into discussion, and we don't seem to have any fine lines drawn aside from differing opinions of users.

Here is my two cents:

The "abilities" and "power levels" of characters in cartoons tend to vary greatly depending on what is most entertaining for the situations they are placed in. This goes for EVERY character in the story: For example, Character A can tank lightning bolts and Character B can damage them with their punches. In any other instance this scaling would work, but with Toon Force thrown into the equation, it isn't that simple.

In this case Character A tanked the lightning bolt because the image of them getting burnt is considered funny, but the slapstick humor wouldn't come across as cleanly if Character A was outright killed. In this case, it was more entertaining for the situation to have the 8-C+ durability required to tank the lightning, but we still frequently see said character being afraid of getting hit by cars and trucks, which top out at Wall level+ via Kinetic Energy.

So, how should we go about handling this stuff? Personally I think Ryukama had the right idea with the ranking placed on Agent P's profile; It Varies between 9-C and High 8-C depending on what is most entertaining for the situation in question.

Because cartoons tend to be all over the place, shonen levels of consistency are a bit much to ask for and it could deny some half decent rankings, leaving the character another blank 10-B profile, so I think we can cut cartoon characters some slack and at least give them some variable rankings that cover small ranges. That being said, I think we should still expect some levels of consistency from cartoons. Like how we're obviously not going to allow Low 2-C Gumball characters, 7-C Dipper, or 5-A Spongebob.

I would like to get some more input on this.

NOTE: Staff only.

 

[Sera_EX]

A note in the Toon Force page should suffice.

 

[Ryukama]

I agree that this idea of Toon Force meaning outliers don't exist is getting bothersome.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Staff discussion only.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm not really a fan of the idea of just putting variable tier based on "what's funny".

You could argue that for any fiction. Superman varies from 8-C to 2-B depending on what the plot demands. Cartoons just tend to be more extreme with it than other fictions.

Them being threatened by far weaker things isn't unique to cartoons either. Most of our characters here are treated as having human limits despite being clearly superhuman.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

As with anything, i think this should be handled on a case by case basis. But certainty don't agree with the "lol toonforce" argument to justify feats which are clear outliers.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I still can't believe people are constantly spamming Toon Force to explain ridiculous outliers when the whole point of the thing is that it's not an in-universe power or explanation but merely something to explain the quirks of the medium.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

@Sera

The point I'm getting across is that I'd like this stuff to be set in stone. A note can easily be overlooked.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I think Bo-bobo has a lot of consistency, and unlike most series with toon force, has a linear plot, and I have been making his page and others for the Bo-bobo verse for awhile now, but there are forks in my path that are addressed in this post.

How Bo-bobo can perform such high tier feats and has 2-A statements, but sometimes can be defeated by things like literal clams, or how he once died by literally sunlight, and once died by the force of his own punch. These deaths were comedic, but then there was his death that occurred when fighting his brother, which was done by using a weakness that Bo-bobo has held consistently throughout the whole manga.

I'm babbling at this point. Basically just getting at how scaling doesn't work well with these characters, and there should be a line between just being able to hurt these characters for comedic purposes, and actually overpowering them in a serious battle.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

@Hadou I agree with your third paragraph very much so. I think there has to be a line drawn somewhere, which is why I made this thread in the first place.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Bo-bobo has a linear plot where the characters are constantly training and becoming more powerful, and they don't really hold any feats or statements I would consider outliers other than the statement that Bo-bobo transcends everything, which was a genuine and serious statement, but obviously contradicted later on. Not only this, but the villains that Bo-bobo fight also continue to be more powerful, through statements, they are more powerful, and sometimes through feats. The villains that are relevant to the plot should scale to Bo-bobo, but sunlight should not scale to Bo-bobo, and clams should not scale to Bo-bobo.

In a series like Gumball or Looney Tunes that barely has a plot instead of just recurring elements in stories, there is barely any consistency, and so who scales to who and what's serious and whatnot I'd questionable. If Gumball genuinely has Multi-Galactic durability in a serious moment, but his mum can hurt him in a comedic moment, she shouldn't scale.

But this isn't the case. Gumball has Multi-Galactic durability from a gag, and is seriously scared of his mum, who in serious moments, has much weaker feats consistently.

And thank you.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I'm not really a fan of the idea of just putting variable tier based on "what's funny".
You could argue that for any fiction. Superman varies from 8-C to 2-B depending on what the plot demands. Cartoons just tend to be more extreme with it than other fictions.

Them being threatened by far weaker things isn't unique to cartoons either. Most of our characters here are treated as having human limits despite being clearly superhuman.

Except that this kind of inconsistency is a bit different.

Toon Force isn't necessarily dependent on the plot, but what is amusing. Different rankings depending on the plot happen because sometimes writers just don't know how to write and/or write themselves into corners, meanwhile in cartoons the levels are often intentionally varied.

Take, for instance, Spongebob usually not being able to lift two stuffed animals, or Eric Cartman being so below average athletically that he alone put the school below average, despite everyone else doing just fine. The writers can intentionally disregard this and have Spongebob lift an entire piano, or have Cartman show Disneyland up his rectum, because it's funny.

Cartoon-like inconsistency is intentional and is done purely for the comedic value. Meanwhile inconsistencies from non-cartoon plotlines happen because the authors either aren't paying attention to how powerful they're making their characters, or have no choice but to write themselves out of a hole.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I 100% agree that "Lol, toonforce, so outliers don't exist" is dumb.

Inb4 this turns into a 5-A Spongebob thread.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I agree with pretty much everything ArbitraryNumbers, Celestial Pegasus, and Matthew Schroeder said. And with going the way of Agent P's profile.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Spongebob being 5-A

> Outlier

What ignorance! ovo

But seriously, the "Arale throws Jiren on a manga panel" thing or "X via toonforce" is getting tiresome. I agree completely with this.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I definitely agree with this after seeing Pucca's profile and the reason behind her ratings. Just because it's a cartoon, doesn't mean outliers do not exist. Especially when they can be literal gag feats.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

> Spongebob being 5-A

> Outlier

What ignorance! ovo

But seriously, the "Arale throws Jiren on a manga panel" thing or "X via toonforce" is getting tiresome. I agree completely with this.

But...X doesn't have toonforce ovo

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Arb It's still a similar inconsistency. "For the plot" or "For humor" are both excuses to try and explain inconsistency.

Allowing varying tier would encourage even more stuff like 3-B Gumball. Because 3-B is just a tier that happened if it was funny, right?

How would we even define outliers if we assume those characters vary in power all the time?

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk is usually very good at setting up rational regulation pages for the wiki. I will ask him to contribute here.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

@Saikou

You seem to be misinterpreting my proposition, here. I never said we're going to throw out consistency altogether, I'm suggesting we set in stone some policies regarding toon force, with my suggestion being that we cut toon force some slack but not allow inflationary high end feats that only happen once or twice.

9-B to 8-C isn't as big of a gap as 9-B to 2-B. By allowing some 9-B and 8-C feats, as they are somewhat recurrent throughout the series with multiple characters having displayed them, we're giving Gumball some wiggling room, but we're not inflating him to ridiculous levels by virtue of a single feat, much like how we didn't allow 5-A Spongebob or 7-C Dipper.

There's still another (almost) 300 episodes filled with counter feats where they are commonly portrayed as regular citizens with regular human weaknesses. Of course we're not going to allow a single 3-B or Low 2-C feat to grant any rankings. The whole point of this thread is to discuss things and draw a line as to what's acceptable and what's not.

 

[DontTalkDT]

when the whole point of the thing is that it's not an in-universe power or explanation but merely something to explain the quirks of the medium.

Sometimes there exist something close to canon toon force, though. Like in "Who framed Roger Rabbit" Roger explains, after simply pulling his hands out of handcuffs when they just found a way to cut them open, that he couldn't simply have pulled them out the entire time, but only if it is funny.

But that aside.

I don't watch too many toon forcey cartoons.

In many franchises Toon Force is rather inconsistent by nature, since it is entirely bound by what is funny.

That produces feats in both directions, as a toon can be harmed by things too weak to usually harm it, if that is funny, but also be unharmed by things it would usually be harmed by, if funny.

These abilities are basically consistently inconsistent, similar to how an ability that has different effects at random would have inconsistent results, while the way it works is consistent.

That doesn't mean we should take only high end feats for toons, though.

In total I basically agree with the proposition at the top, of granting some amount of variance and sorting out outliers. I would maybe write it on the profile as "usually between x level and y level, dependend on how funny/entertaining a result would be" or something like that.

Additionally I would suggest to try to split serious stats from toon force stats, if a series isn't 100% toon force powers.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Also, Hadou, this is a staff discussion thread.

Unless you're a recently retired staff, because I've had that misunderstanding before.

 

[Antvasima]

Hadou is not a former staff member.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, so what are the conclusions here?

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I'm not sure.

I would've like to have had a further discussion but everyone seems to be in agreement with my propositions except for Saikou.

 

[Antvasima]

So, should we leave extra instructions in the Toon Force page, and if so, does anybody have suggestions for the wording?

 

[Blademan9999]

Toon force usually doesn't stop characters from being hurt, It merely stops them from being killed.

Hurting a toonforcer that can survive the planet blowing up can be achieved with wall level and below attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

We still need to decide a wording for the instructions in the Toon Force page.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I indeed think we should include something in the toon force page. But DontTalk would probably be better at wording things than me, and I will be leaving for school shortly.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to politely ask him to comment here again via his message wall.

 

[Antvasima]

This did not seem to lead to any progress. Perhaps we should revive the discussion?

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

It's relevant, so yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, let's hope that the previous participants respond again.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I agree we should probably split toon force stats from serious ones if the verse isn't 100% toon force.

That aside I still stand by my points.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. To make things easier for the rest of us, can you summarise the conclusions so far?

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry, but this is a staff discussion.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I believe the consensus we have come to so far is to cut toon force characters some slack and give them a little bit more wiggling room as far as consistency goes, but still not accepting blatant outliers that are far above all other showings in the series.

Along with that I think we also agreed that we should obviously separate toon force feats from real feats for characters that aren't 100% toon force.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. In what manner do we need to improve the Toon Force page?