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Saeko Desantis vs Zain Vaerpath
- Thread starter Imouto-tan
- Start date
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From what I'm reading, it seems Zain is going to take this one. Not with much difficulty either. First of all Saeko can't even really kill Zain unless his Regenerationn is too slow for SBA to beat him out for being out for too long (yes this is a thing), while Zain has a higher dimensional resistance negation, and abilities such as inducing death wouldn't even put Regenerationn into question.
Either that, or Zain dimensional tier stomps. (I don't know if Saeko is 10 or 11 dimensional, so I can't tell which case is which)
If I missed any big hax, tell me.
Either that, or Zain dimensional tier stomps. (I don't know if Saeko is 10 or 11 dimensional, so I can't tell which case is which)
If I missed any big hax, tell me.
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- Thread starter
- #3
Mil Noches can pull higher dimensional beings down to lower dimensions while also negating any boons that are normally associated with being a higher dimensional being. Plus her attacks negate durability, immortality and Regenerationn up to low-godly levels. Furthermore, The Eyes of the Observer can choose what exists and what does not allowing her to existence erase beings even beings on her dimensional level meaning once she pulls him to her level she can erase him (being that he would presumably be stripped of his High-Godly Regenerationn once brought down to her level he'd remain erased).
Not to mention her sealing powers that can seal basically anything, so she could just seal him away even if she can't permanently defeat him.
With Crimson Reaper she can gain the knowledge that she needs in order to kill her target (which would allow her to come up with a plan of attack most effective to use)
(NOTE: None of my characters are tenth dimension beings) (NOTE: Saeko's page explicitly says that Mil Noches brings them down to the physical realm meaning the 3rd dimension or at least that's what I mean to translate it as)
Not to mention her sealing powers that can seal basically anything, so she could just seal him away even if she can't permanently defeat him.
With Crimson Reaper she can gain the knowledge that she needs in order to kill her target (which would allow her to come up with a plan of attack most effective to use)
(NOTE: None of my characters are tenth dimension beings) (NOTE: Saeko's page explicitly says that Mil Noches brings them down to the physical realm meaning the 3rd dimension or at least that's what I mean to translate it as)
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All of what you said is either resisted or made useless by other things (trying to negate high godly with low godly negation, durability negating a regenerator of this level). Power null resistance pretty much makes absolutely everything you said there not work. That and EE resistance also screws that even if you could pull him down. And all of these powers are apparently by equipment (some present in 3D keys), so negating powers is double noped.
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- #5
I would say that she just seals up all of his equipment and powers but that is probably not allowed. (even though sealing is really nullification just acts similarly meaning that it technically bypasses any abilities such as Anti-Power Nullification being that the power isn't nullified just sealed away)
And wouldn't her sealing the concept of Regenerationn and resistance make these things nonexistent allowing her to then Existence Erase him?
And wouldn't her sealing the concept of Regenerationn and resistance make these things nonexistent allowing her to then Existence Erase him?
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I have a feeling that you're not reading the profile, since it literally says "on a conceptual level" in those resistances. And sealing powers does fall within power nullification.
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- Thread starter
- #7
Then I concede
Because in my verse Sealing powers bypass resistances and power nullification. And I assume that just sealing him away doesn't count as a win. Furthermore, I can't add any of her other powers and weapons because that would be spoilers ^ ^
So I will be back for round two once the visual novel is out
Because in my verse Sealing powers bypass resistances and power nullification. And I assume that just sealing him away doesn't count as a win. Furthermore, I can't add any of her other powers and weapons because that would be spoilers ^ ^
So I will be back for round two once the visual novel is out
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- Thread starter
- #8
Also on Saeko's page it says that her scythe bypasses resistances both magical and innate but that wouldn't actually change the tide of the battle would it?
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Oh wow, I missed this, apparently. Beige jacket fight?
It can actually be done pre-slight rework of his page, too, since the final key's essentially going unchanged. Hopefully this isn't a Necro.
I guess I vote mah boi, for reasons above, though I can also elaborate on some specific bits with one of my signature essays-
As it stands, for starters, I see no reason that Zain doesn't also automatically have all of Saeko's powers on account of her being a sapient entity, in combination with the True Monad's archetypical nature as 'all sapient entities', unless I guess you want to rule that's an 'assimilation' power of sorts that she can resist? Even if Saeko isn't just a part of the True Monad on account of what the True Monad is, you're looking at an infinite wall of everything that a sapient being can do with Allbring for an opening move, an unlimited well of willpower to defend against anything that can be thought of as a 'Reality Fracture' which at this point is more or less anything that is a threat to the existence of sapient life, i.e. him,... etc.
He has multiple feats of using the Sephira to resist hax above his paygrade even before receiving the Kether proper, and even following that withstood witnessing the Ain Soph Aur (i.e. the twelfth "Sphere" of reality that holds apart the Tree of Life from the rest of the world, effectively preventing anything higher than 12-D from interacting with anything within it for fear of the whole cosmology falling apart like it almost did the first time), so... I don't really see any of the hax she has working any time soon.
In theory, that scythe might be a Win-Con, since hax in her world seems to reach High 1-B levels to some degree? But assuming that it can shut off the Tiphareth, even, the likelihood of her actually getting something like that off against, y'know, someone that wields the duality a hit off against someone with that kind of sheer defense isn't great. Plus, you know, "...Her scythe can only control humans and it can't control people if they have a strong enough will, love trumps it's influence, a lack of emotions or an immunity to pain also prevents the scythe from controlling them." seems like a pretty debilitating weakness against a character whose superpower is the perseverance of the human heart made incarnate.
Eyes of the Observer would be a trump card, except the Daathe exists on top of the Kether. The whole point of Arc IV and the Daathe, etc. is that "it doesn't really matter whether or not something can be categorized as 'real' or not, my ascribing meaning to it as a conscious being with thoughts and hopes is enough to make the difference meaningless"- in order words, deciding something Zain does or is isn't 'real' isn't really going to make a difference here. This applies on an infinite scale, an account of the Kether... you see where this is going.
Basically what I'm seeing: Saeko makes Zain into Waifu Zain, who proceeds to say "lolokay, I Allbring with all-of-life-plus-you's powers, to prevent any wall of hax/resistance you might have to stop me from Sealing with Ahura Mazda before that scythe gets anywhere near me just to be on the safe side." (Of course, convincing her to stop fighting with Talk No Jutsu'd be preferable in-character, but somehow I doubt that goes anywhere, his mindhax/social influence feats aren't very impressive.)
I guess I'll wait for Round 2 to see if anything changes...
It can actually be done pre-slight rework of his page, too, since the final key's essentially going unchanged. Hopefully this isn't a Necro.
I guess I vote mah boi, for reasons above, though I can also elaborate on some specific bits with one of my signature essays-
As it stands, for starters, I see no reason that Zain doesn't also automatically have all of Saeko's powers on account of her being a sapient entity, in combination with the True Monad's archetypical nature as 'all sapient entities', unless I guess you want to rule that's an 'assimilation' power of sorts that she can resist? Even if Saeko isn't just a part of the True Monad on account of what the True Monad is, you're looking at an infinite wall of everything that a sapient being can do with Allbring for an opening move, an unlimited well of willpower to defend against anything that can be thought of as a 'Reality Fracture' which at this point is more or less anything that is a threat to the existence of sapient life, i.e. him,... etc.
He has multiple feats of using the Sephira to resist hax above his paygrade even before receiving the Kether proper, and even following that withstood witnessing the Ain Soph Aur (i.e. the twelfth "Sphere" of reality that holds apart the Tree of Life from the rest of the world, effectively preventing anything higher than 12-D from interacting with anything within it for fear of the whole cosmology falling apart like it almost did the first time), so... I don't really see any of the hax she has working any time soon.
In theory, that scythe might be a Win-Con, since hax in her world seems to reach High 1-B levels to some degree? But assuming that it can shut off the Tiphareth, even, the likelihood of her actually getting something like that off against, y'know, someone that wields the duality a hit off against someone with that kind of sheer defense isn't great. Plus, you know, "...Her scythe can only control humans and it can't control people if they have a strong enough will, love trumps it's influence, a lack of emotions or an immunity to pain also prevents the scythe from controlling them." seems like a pretty debilitating weakness against a character whose superpower is the perseverance of the human heart made incarnate.
Eyes of the Observer would be a trump card, except the Daathe exists on top of the Kether. The whole point of Arc IV and the Daathe, etc. is that "it doesn't really matter whether or not something can be categorized as 'real' or not, my ascribing meaning to it as a conscious being with thoughts and hopes is enough to make the difference meaningless"- in order words, deciding something Zain does or is isn't 'real' isn't really going to make a difference here. This applies on an infinite scale, an account of the Kether... you see where this is going.
Basically what I'm seeing: Saeko makes Zain into Waifu Zain, who proceeds to say "lolokay, I Allbring with all-of-life-plus-you's powers, to prevent any wall of hax/resistance you might have to stop me from Sealing with Ahura Mazda before that scythe gets anywhere near me just to be on the safe side." (Of course, convincing her to stop fighting with Talk No Jutsu'd be preferable in-character, but somehow I doubt that goes anywhere, his mindhax/social influence feats aren't very impressive.)
I guess I'll wait for Round 2 to see if anything changes...
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- Thread starter
- #10
So inconclusive still?
I am still in the middle of the revisions to her page as we speak (adding Vampire Queen and changing things that are apparently against the rules)
which is why I said that I concede until I am truly finished with the page
I am still in the middle of the revisions to her page as we speak (adding Vampire Queen and changing things that are apparently against the rules)
which is why I said that I concede until I am truly finished with the page
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ThePerpetual said:
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...yeah, I see no reason he doesn't just win straight-up right now, even granting Saeko the benefit of the doubt in regards to "doesn't have all powers stripped/copied by the True Monad, and also doesn't instantly die to Allbring" I don't see it as likely that the scythe both lands cleanly and gets through layers upon layers of defenses (the Kether, most notably, which probably would just remove the scythe's properties from it if it recognized them as a legitimate threat.)
"Defines all undesired phenomena within oneself as Idea Fractures, and thus allows the Will to function as an absolute defense against any and all irregular phenomena." essentially means that, even if this scythe's effect goes off past all levels of infinity, it's still contending with an all-purpose defense that's handled things from what I can tell? more potent than its magic, or whatever it is. (I think we're also assuming that Zain has organs to target at all as a weird, abstract coalescene of thoughts and souls, which doesn't make a lot of sense but eh, I'll roll with it if it makes the debate more interesting.)
"...negates any form of immortality, Regenerationn, and durability, no matter how infinite it is" is almost verbatim what Samael's All Must Die move is, and he just threw Allbring over his head to stop that from crushing him the last time such that there could be a reasonably normal/sane fight. So, she'll probably need to think up a second Win Condition on top of that, while Allbring's checked (again, assuming any of this works in the first place and Allbring doesn't overwhelm her resistance to everything first.)
What exactly are Saeko's feats? Her profile doesn't have a section for it, and I'm not really well-versed on what her Verse of origin has going on in it aside from Jiang Ying Yue is in it.
(Unless you'd rather just make this thread once you're done with whatever revisions, I guess, to get back to that, but as is I've seen more mismatched threads. In this case, there's at least a theoretical Win Condition that I can imagine.)
"Defines all undesired phenomena within oneself as Idea Fractures, and thus allows the Will to function as an absolute defense against any and all irregular phenomena." essentially means that, even if this scythe's effect goes off past all levels of infinity, it's still contending with an all-purpose defense that's handled things from what I can tell? more potent than its magic, or whatever it is. (I think we're also assuming that Zain has organs to target at all as a weird, abstract coalescene of thoughts and souls, which doesn't make a lot of sense but eh, I'll roll with it if it makes the debate more interesting.)
"...negates any form of immortality, Regenerationn, and durability, no matter how infinite it is" is almost verbatim what Samael's All Must Die move is, and he just threw Allbring over his head to stop that from crushing him the last time such that there could be a reasonably normal/sane fight. So, she'll probably need to think up a second Win Condition on top of that, while Allbring's checked (again, assuming any of this works in the first place and Allbring doesn't overwhelm her resistance to everything first.)
What exactly are Saeko's feats? Her profile doesn't have a section for it, and I'm not really well-versed on what her Verse of origin has going on in it aside from Jiang Ying Yue is in it.
(Unless you'd rather just make this thread once you're done with whatever revisions, I guess, to get back to that, but as is I've seen more mismatched threads. In this case, there's at least a theoretical Win Condition that I can imagine.)
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- Thread starter
- #13
Saeko has the speed to surpass him being that he's only immeasurable meaning he has a top speed while her speed is irrelevant meaning that she has no top speed aka far beyond being able to be measured (surpasses someone who literally fought and defeated an omnipresent being in a 1-on-1 fight, defeated someone who attacks/travels in half of a plank instant and is comparable to Yingyue who outpaced a being with the ability to always be faster (one of her legionaries has this power and she must defeat someone before she has them join); furthermore, keep in mind that my verse has infinite dimensions, infinite space, infinite timelines, infinite multivserses and at base Saeko is beyond the 11th dimension making her far faster than your beyond time Zain). So Saeko has this solely on being the faster of the two.
Saeko can control the blood in other's body a specific resistance that your character seems to lack so even without getting closer she could easily make him bleed and once she does that she can make her stats rise and lower his (her attacks also turn blood and the opponent's energy into usable energy for herself) Furthermore, one of her techniques turn her into a voodoo doll of sorts once she consumes the blood of the opponent meaning that everything that happens to her is reflected back onto him as well (another resistance seemingly missing), there is also her spell that covers the 11 dimensions with a red fog that allows to and I quote: "Blood Zone: When using the spell Saeko gathers the Dark Ki of the surrounding area in her hand. From here Saeko infuses a bit of the Dark Ki into her own blood to give her blood mystical properties. The blood is then released as a fine mist from the pores on her hand once she is relatively close to the opponent. The size of the mist can vary in size depending on how much of her blood was used. When the opponent is caught in the mist the blood enchants the opponent to bring them under Saeko's complete control. She uses this control to lower the opponent's blood pressure to induce fatigue or fainting, dizziness, decreased concentration, blurred vision, cold skin, and rapid shallow breathing. She can also stop the blood flow to the heart completely if the opponent's willpower is weak enough resulting in a heart attack."
And you are also forgetting that her red moon removes her concept of death and grants a nullification field that drastically reduces the effect of all offensive magic and attacks directed towards her (in this case any attack that he tries to use).
Even if he were to close off a sphere of existence (which she'd probably still survive being that she destroyed Pandemonium which is in Hell "Earthquake Generation via Nightmare Blood (She once made an Earthquake that submerged Pandemonium [a city in hell which is an infinite 11th dimensional space]) ") Meaning not only was she in the city, she destroyed it and was unaffected by destroying it. Heck they both have conceptual level resistances but with her speed and an attack (doubles as a durability) feat that far exceeds his she has this in the bag. And she has Limited Omniscience via The Eyes of the Observer giving vast knowledge and seeing that she is apart of a Think Tank full of the multiverse's smartest people her level of supergenius far exceeds his own. Plus with the power to negate Limited Omniscience he wouldn't be able to connect to her intellect to use it while she could do the reverse and continually change fate via the Eyes of the Observer to give herself favorable outcomes.
But sure we should probably wait for me to finish the last of the updates
Saeko can control the blood in other's body a specific resistance that your character seems to lack so even without getting closer she could easily make him bleed and once she does that she can make her stats rise and lower his (her attacks also turn blood and the opponent's energy into usable energy for herself) Furthermore, one of her techniques turn her into a voodoo doll of sorts once she consumes the blood of the opponent meaning that everything that happens to her is reflected back onto him as well (another resistance seemingly missing), there is also her spell that covers the 11 dimensions with a red fog that allows to and I quote: "Blood Zone: When using the spell Saeko gathers the Dark Ki of the surrounding area in her hand. From here Saeko infuses a bit of the Dark Ki into her own blood to give her blood mystical properties. The blood is then released as a fine mist from the pores on her hand once she is relatively close to the opponent. The size of the mist can vary in size depending on how much of her blood was used. When the opponent is caught in the mist the blood enchants the opponent to bring them under Saeko's complete control. She uses this control to lower the opponent's blood pressure to induce fatigue or fainting, dizziness, decreased concentration, blurred vision, cold skin, and rapid shallow breathing. She can also stop the blood flow to the heart completely if the opponent's willpower is weak enough resulting in a heart attack."
And you are also forgetting that her red moon removes her concept of death and grants a nullification field that drastically reduces the effect of all offensive magic and attacks directed towards her (in this case any attack that he tries to use).
Even if he were to close off a sphere of existence (which she'd probably still survive being that she destroyed Pandemonium which is in Hell "Earthquake Generation via Nightmare Blood (She once made an Earthquake that submerged Pandemonium [a city in hell which is an infinite 11th dimensional space]) ") Meaning not only was she in the city, she destroyed it and was unaffected by destroying it. Heck they both have conceptual level resistances but with her speed and an attack (doubles as a durability) feat that far exceeds his she has this in the bag. And she has Limited Omniscience via The Eyes of the Observer giving vast knowledge and seeing that she is apart of a Think Tank full of the multiverse's smartest people her level of supergenius far exceeds his own. Plus with the power to negate Limited Omniscience he wouldn't be able to connect to her intellect to use it while she could do the reverse and continually change fate via the Eyes of the Observer to give herself favorable outcomes.
But sure we should probably wait for me to finish the last of the updates
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- #14
The kicker to this is that in character Saeko would just remove her own concept of speed and the scythe's concept of speed, distance and missing (being that The Crimson Reaper would suggest doing this to end the fight quickly) via the Eyes of the Observer being that it can decide what is true or not. Zain's profile says that he is immune to concepts but he wouldn't be able to undo Saeko using the Eyes of the Observer to remove her own concepts which would allow her to make her scythe never miss and make its attacks instantaneous.
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Okay, so before I continue with this,
We are waiting until reworks come in then, yes? How long do you think that'll take you?
We are waiting until reworks come in then, yes? How long do you think that'll take you?
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- #16
I should have them up by tomorrow morning in like 6 - 7 hours
Got busy with troubles IRL
Got busy with troubles IRL
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- #17
Hmm honestly seeing as her revisions actually put her in low 1-B (making her other form a High 1-B) and seeing that she defeats the MC of the visual novel (who is the living Embodiment of the Collective Unconscious and the Collective Consciousness at the same time) I highly doubt someone with a similar powerset would do much to her (especially being that he is a lower tier than the MC). You both keep ignoring the fact that she could just as easily defeat him as he could her. They both have the same negations basically, but she has the brains and more combat experience than him.
She can affect Type 4 Acausality users (seeing that all of the Remnants of Darkness and characters uploaded so far are Type 4) where as Zain is a type 2 and has no resistance to Causality Manipulation. (Meaning she could change cause and effect around all willy nilly and he couldn't stop her because can't even control it himself ans has no resistance to it). She also has full fledged Fate Manipulation which would beat out his limited fate negation (which again can affect highly resistant beings). She is immune to power nullification, power absorption (power stealing being that this is what Jiang does) and power mimicry so all of is copying or sealing will not work on her so easily.
Being that they both have powers that would make them equal to each other HAX-wise this would come down to speed and Attack Power in the end. She has both being comparable to beings that can outrun beings beyond speed and withstand attacks from a character who fought a being who leveled Creation (which is far bigger than 11 dimensions).
She can affect Type 4 Acausality users (seeing that all of the Remnants of Darkness and characters uploaded so far are Type 4) where as Zain is a type 2 and has no resistance to Causality Manipulation. (Meaning she could change cause and effect around all willy nilly and he couldn't stop her because can't even control it himself ans has no resistance to it). She also has full fledged Fate Manipulation which would beat out his limited fate negation (which again can affect highly resistant beings). She is immune to power nullification, power absorption (power stealing being that this is what Jiang does) and power mimicry so all of is copying or sealing will not work on her so easily.
Being that they both have powers that would make them equal to each other HAX-wise this would come down to speed and Attack Power in the end. She has both being comparable to beings that can outrun beings beyond speed and withstand attacks from a character who fought a being who leveled Creation (which is far bigger than 11 dimensions).
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There is no low 1-B. But if revisions throw her in another tier, we might as well leave this thread. (cause different tiers means she fights someone else for a different spot on wiki's strongest, and this starts closing towards a dimensional tier stomp)
Please do not write this on any VS thread. Especially when people were debating against that very thing.Imouto-tan said:
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but seriously, update the profile, then go back to this thread.
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- #20
Heck being that he has no resistance to Causality Manipulation she wins just by changing the cause and effect of using his powers because he also doesn't have resistance to his powers being altered in any way.
Being that she also have double resistance to death manipulation (and can only have the concept of death placed on her by a stronger being which Zain is not being that he is around the same level as her and this isn't even mentioning that she reflects the concept of death back onto the attacker meaning that he'd just place it onto himself)
And he could banish her however the Eyes of the Observer allows her to travel space and time making this useless. His time stop won't work being that she is comparable to Hibiki #23 who can move at MFTL+ speed even in stopped time, furthermore, her Acausality Type 4 makes her immune to timey-wimey HAX, Paradox HAX and Causality HAX.
Being that she also have double resistance to death manipulation (and can only have the concept of death placed on her by a stronger being which Zain is not being that he is around the same level as her and this isn't even mentioning that she reflects the concept of death back onto the attacker meaning that he'd just place it onto himself)
And he could banish her however the Eyes of the Observer allows her to travel space and time making this useless. His time stop won't work being that she is comparable to Hibiki #23 who can move at MFTL+ speed even in stopped time, furthermore, her Acausality Type 4 makes her immune to timey-wimey HAX, Paradox HAX and Causality HAX.
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- #21
Transcribing from the game onto actual character pages is a lot of work and is taking longer than expected
And seeing that even the incomplete Saeko has more than enough tricks to overcome Zain I will take my time finishing her
And seeing that even the incomplete Saeko has more than enough tricks to overcome Zain I will take my time finishing her
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...wait, these are game characters? (Their Verse of origin isn't linked anywhere so I've not had the ability to check)
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- #23
Yup I am making a visual novel with them in it
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- #24
The updates again but like I said with the revisions and balacing done it would raise her stats to Low 1-B
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I literally said that that tier doesn't exist.Imouto-tan said:
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- #26
I meant 1-B
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...so, if you knew you were going to just change her entire Powers and Abilities section on top of her Tier, immediately before making the match,
What was the point of any of this?
What was the point of any of this?
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Tbh, i do that. I have stuff i never add, simply because i'm lazy. Reality warping gives you 99% of powers but reality warping has levels, can be limited and isn't impressive sometimes. I made a match and i'm not even done adding powers. But reality warping gives me an excuse to be lazy. Gunna start writing "ultimate reality warping" so i don't have to list unlimted sub powers, cause rw at it's highest level gives you everything that aint omnipotence.
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you can't really have reality warping (or anything) at the "highest level" without being tier 0. Saying something is at it's highest level is an NLF.
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I know that. I never said I would use that but Advanced or Ultimate
(On my phone and not on my computer, which is why the account is different)
(On my phone and not on my computer, which is why the account is different)
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- #31
To be fair it was suggested that I make them less inconsistent, so I did but hey at least this is one less character that it vying for you High 1-C spot. ^u^
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