Revising Goku's Kaioken stats

[Tivanenk]

OK, so I simply don't understand the basis for universe level for his Kaioken.

Surprising Beerus? OK, but that is still not enough evidence for universe, especially since DB characters get surprised all the time.

Kaioken boosts his power by 10x? Not enough. At this level of power, 10x is paltry. 1 trillion galaxies being busted is multi-galaxy. Same with 10 trillion. Unless there is sufficient proof that Goku can bust a universe or even go up against a universe buster, then he should be revised to just 3-B. Same with Hit.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Well, in DBZ, we see expressions of surprise when he/she sees that the other fighter is capable of being a potential threat, or approaching their power level. For example, Vegeta's Final Flash against Cell, as well as Goku's Kamehameha against Cell (along with Goku going SSJ against Frieza).

However, when we see Goku go SSJ Blue Kaioken, we see not just Beerus, but Whis being surprised as well. We also see Champa being surprised as well as even Vados taking note of that transformation (and even being surprised by it). This is an indication that Goku as SSJ Blue Kaioken, isn't actually too far behind Beerus at this point in terms of power level, although Beerus still holds a significant gap in power.

Also, in regular Super Saiyan God, Goku was actually trading blows with Beerus without getting utterly annihilated while sending shockwaves that vibrated through the universe. Even if Beerus was holding back, that still easily places Goku on the upper range of Multi-Galaxy level due to actually matching Beerus in the first place.

Also keep in mind that the power gap between Universe and Universe+ is >>> compared to Universe and Multi-Galaxy. This means that even if Goku was Universe level, and if Beerus was much, much stronger than Goku, Beerus would still be Universe level.

Personally, I'm okay with SSJ x10 Goku being Universe level, just for the fact that Beerus and Champa were actually surprised by it when Goku performed it.

 

[Tivanenk]

Well, they might be surprised because Goku is getting close to that level, and I don't have a problem with multi-galaxy+, but the thing is, there's no evidence whatsoever that Goku is either on Champa's, Beerus' or Whis' level. Keep in mind that the range for multi-galaxy+ is huge as well. 10x multiplier suddenly making one jump from multi-galaxy+ to universe just because someone was "surprised" is not enough. For all we know, it could mean that he is simply stronger than what they thought he is.

I have no doubt Goku will eventually become universe level, but we can only evaluate him as such from feats or scaling from fights, not anything vague.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Goku was already on the high end of multi-galaxy as just a ssg, with a new form ssb that surpasses ssg and 3 years of training and a 10x kaioken i think he reaches universe level. Remember goku contributed energy to ball of energy that was going to destroy the universe even if we assume goku only put 10% of the energy in there which is an extreme lowball as the beam struggle suggested goku and beerus were relatively even, with a 10x kaioken he would be universe level. Another thing just because goku is universe level it doesnt mean he is on beerus and champa's level universe level is ridiculously large.

 

[Lina_Shields]

There was a fight between Beerus and Goku where Goku matches blows with Beerus in regular SSG form. That easily places Goku at the very upper range of Multi-Galaxy+. SSJ God * Kaioken = x500 boost in power. This could potentially be enough to tip the scales for Goku to become Universe level, although barely.

Wasn't Beerus supposed to be a casual universe buster or something? If Beerus actually is a casual universe buster and Goku isn't all that far from him, then Goku could scale to Beerus in terms of PL.

Personally, I will wait until we get more feats on Goku and other characters in general.

 

[Tivanenk]

You two guys are only advancing assumptions. Multi-galaxy+ x 10 or x 500 is still multi-galaxy+. Busting 10 trillion galaxies and busting 100 or 5000 trillion galaxies is the same tier. The range is huge. The range is huge in that tier. Scaling from Beerus based on how much weaker he is only result in assumptions and cannot be allowed, especially for such a popular franchise.

 

[Lina_Shields]

So, Beerus stated at one point that when trading blows with Goku, and Old Kai says this.

https://youtu.be/xxncbeyLgoE?t=1m6s

Old Kai says that if Beerus and Goku clash their fists each other a few more times, he says that the Universe will be completely destroyed due to the shockwaves generated from both of their punches. This means that SSGod Goku released a large fraction, or more of the energy required to obliterate the entire universe, in a casual punch.

Keep in mind that Goku actually contributed half of the destructive power of the universal shockwave released in that scene by evenly matching Beerus' punch.

Now, when Goku goes SSBlue, and when he applies Kaioken x10 on top of that, Goku's power increases by 500 times. Yea.

Edit: At 1:32 Old Kai says when there will be nothing left in the universe due to shockwaves generated from Goku/Beerus' punches.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I get what you are saying goku doesnt have any "definetive" universal feat as he hasnt been stated to one shot a universe or destroy one in one hit but we have enough evidence to conclude that at this point he should be at universe level. This is what dragon ball is about really powerscaling cell has never destroy a solar system yet we have him at solar system level because its not contradicted and its supported by powerscaling as freeza is star level. A lot of characters have never performed feats to legitimately justify their tiering but we know by powerscaling that they should be at the level they are powerscaled at.

Goku as a ssg could destroy the universe in 3 blows thats a multi-galaxy+ feat and as a ssg he contributed most likely half the energy to the energy ball that was gonna nuke the universe. Since performing those feats he has obtained a form that is stated to surpass ss and has spent 3 years training and got even stronger and now with a 10x kaioken he should be universe level. As i said before this is based on the feats ssg performed if ssg is 1/2 of universe level or even a lowballed then a 10x kaioken should logically put him at universe level. Now clearly goku has never destroyed a universe and probably never will but he at this point be on that level and this is based on conjecture but then again so is most of dragon ball. Universe level literally goes up to infinity so beerus can fit there and still be way above goku.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

.Now, when Goku goes SSBlue, and when he applies Kaioken x10 on top of that, Goku's power increases by 500 times. Yea.

Where are you getting 500 from? We don't use SSJ multiplier on the wiki

 

[Tivanenk]

snip

Doesn't count. How do you know that Beerus' and Goku's punches didn't amplify each other ala Athena's Exclamation style? How do you know that Goku contributed a major amount towards this universe busting?

Beerus at least has other statements that indicate that he's universe level, and he's clearly above Goku so Goku can't scale to him. Neither does Goku have any feats nor statements of universe level.

 

[Ryukama]

@Tivenak Where are you getting 5000 trillion galaxies? The observable around 92 billion lightyears.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Even if SSJ multiplier is not factored in, Kaioken x10 still increases Goku's power by x10, which bumps up Goku's PL enough to obliterate the universe entirely.

And Goku and Beerus performed this with a punch no less.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

They weren't casual punches at all

They were full powered punches


About the multiplication... SSG Goku and Beerus were going to destroy the universe (I don't remember how many punches), SSB is stronger (Even probably his new SSJ is stronger) and for the and Goku trained 3 years with Vegeta for the Tournament

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Doesn't count. How do you know that Beerus' and Goku's punches didn't amplify each other ala Athena's Exclamation style? How do you know that Goku contributed a major amount towards this universe busting?

Beerus at least has other statements that indicate that he's universe level, and he's clearly above Goku so Goku can't scale to him. Neither does Goku have any feats nor statements of universe level.

Well you might now this already, but our Tier 3A is just for destroying the observable universe, not more. The real universe is High 3-A.

 

[Tivanenk]

@Tivenak Where are you getting 5000 trillion galaxies? The observable around 92 billion lightyears.

I'm talking as an example for multipliers being used.

Also, using multipliers is shaky at best. Beerus' percentages are clearly not indicative of what he is able to do at each tier. For universe level Goku, we need either concise feats, or definite statements that, "Yes, he can destroy the universe by himself." As it stands, right now it's pure theory and speculation based on a multiplier with many unknown factors.

 

[Tivanenk]

Actually, I'm curious, but where does it saying that SSB is stronger than SSG? Just a question.

 

[Ryukama]

@Tivenak I'm not sure what you mean by multipliers, however busting 5000 trillion galaxies would not be 3-B, as that size vastly exceeds the size of our observable universe.

 

[Tivanenk]

@Tivenak I'm not sure what you mean by multipliers, however busting 5000 trillion galaxies would not be 3-B, as that size vastly exceeds the size of our observable universe.

It was my error to set such a high number. Let's use an example in the millions.

 

[Ryukama]

Alright @Tivenak.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Actually, I'm curious, but where does it saying that SSB is stronger than SSG? Just a question.

The narrator says it in the anime before fighting Frieza.

 

[Tivanenk]

Actually, I'm curious, but where does it saying that SSB is stronger than SSG? Just a question.

The narrator says it in the anime before fighting Frieza.

Ah, okay, thanks.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

Question, do they say x10 power level or x10 strength, because x10 power level doesn't make you 10x stronger

 

[Kyo_Zero]

Also just for the sake of posting my own thoughts on Goku vs Beerus being able to destroy the universe.

Scaling Goku off of Beerus is somewhat questionable, as it isn't fair to assume that Goku was doing a mass portion of this event putting him close to universe level to begin with. Beerus is the god of destruction, destruction being his thing, so his busting feats are likely far higher than just someone who is around his strength. The universe crumbling may have been more Beerus's doing, so rather than just assuming Goku is near capable of the same feat, it might be better to wait for sufficient proof that Goku is a universe buster. Also, Beerus is significantly stronger than Goku, i believe the numbers had Goku at a 6 and Beerus at a 10, further emphasising Beerus's superiosity over Goku, as well as his destructive feats.


(Seriously I've edited this around 20 times trying to get the grammar correct)

 

[Promestein]

Goku still contributed. He still kept up with these universe-busting punches. If Beerus was 60% of the force behind those blows, Goku probably would have died.

You're basically saying the feat is invalid for Goku, which is absurd.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

, i believe the numbers had Goku at a 6 and Beerus at a 10, further emphasising Beerus's superiosity over Goku, as well as his destructive feats.

We don't use the 6, 10, 15 scale here, that was for the movie and completely retconned by Super. Goku was a small tree compared to Beerus' giant castle in the anime

 

[Kyo_Zero]

, i believe the numbers had Goku at a 6 and Beerus at a 10, further emphasising Beerus's superiosity over Goku, as well as his destructive feats.

We don't use the 6, 10, 15 scale here, that was for the movie and completely retconned by Super. Goku was a small tree compared to Beerus' giant castle in the anime

Fair enough, but my original point still stands in that case doesn't it?

 

[Kyo_Zero]

Goku still contributed. He still kept up with these universe-busting punches. If Beerus was 60% of the force behind those blows, Goku probably would have died.
You're basically saying the feat is invalid for Goku, which is absurd.

I'm not trying to say it's invalid for Goku, I'm suggesting that Goku may not be capable of universe busting on his own, and that it was the collisions between he and Beerus, god of DESTRUCTION that was causing the collapse of the universe.

Also, if what you're saying is true, why wasn't Goku considered universe level before Kaioken?

 

[Huesito88]

Goku isn't going to be multiversal in this wiki anytime soon why because he needs to affect space and time with his destructive capabilities and affect more then just 3D matter.

 

[Promestein]

Because Goku wasn't causing universal destruction in a single blow. He was causing it over a series of punches exchanged with Beerus; which is Multi-Galaxy.

 

[Tivanenk]

Goku still contributed. He still kept up with these universe-busting punches. If Beerus was 60% of the force behind those blows, Goku probably would have died.
You're basically saying the feat is invalid for Goku, which is absurd.

That is fair enough, but Goku and Beerus' attack amplified in power the more it travelled. And Beerus was obviously not serious during the fight (by that I mean 100%), so we can't scale Goku off Beerus' power either. And besides, the two blows kept at it for a while. Think of the clash between Agyo and Ungyo in the Saint Seiya series where they rebirthed countless of universes, although each technique is only universal level. It's because the clash between them lasted over time and thus elevated the combined technique into multiversal level.

Same scenario here. Goku so far hasn't been shown to be able to bust a universe by himself other than scaling off some arbitrary feat from a weaker form by using a multiplier.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

I honestly think that Goku should stay around MG, because honestly, it makes zero sense right now that something like surprising Beerus would count as a good feat. Lots of fighters could at least surprise him, and a lot more Dragon Ball feats are more direct with scaling. Cell made a statement that can easily be argued to not be a bluff, especially given his situation and that that was never his style, guidebooks confirm it, and so does scaling. There you go. There is a huge power gap, so scaling confirms almost nothing here, we do not have anything changing what we know via statements, and finally, this is an extremely odd situation to be saying he is universal, especially in Dragon Ball.

Of course, Goku will be universal anyway at some point in time. Somehow. So I guess it is far too early to be making cases.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

Goku still contributed. He still kept up with these universe-busting punches. If Beerus was 60% of the force behind those blows, Goku probably would have died.
You're basically saying the feat is invalid for Goku, which is absurd.

That is fair enough, but Goku and Beerus' attack amplified in power the more it travelled. And Beerus was obviously not serious during the fight (by that I mean 100%), so we can't scale Goku off Beerus' power either. And besides, the two blows kept at it for a while. Think of the clash between Agyo and Ungyo in the Saint Seiya series where they rebirthed countless of universes, although each technique is only universal level. It's because the clash between them lasted over time and thus elevated the combined technique into multiversal level.
Same scenario here. Goku so far hasn't been shown to be able to bust a universe by himself other than scaling off some arbitrary feat from a weaker form by using a multiplier.

Here we have the same arguments brought up again, namely Goku can't destroy the universe because he never destroyed a universe and that he can only do this feat whilst clashing with Beerus.

To the first point this makes no sense, because 1) He never destroyed the universe because he never wanted or needed to 2) Multiple highly intelligent characters, including both Whis and the Kais have all directly stated that the entire universe would be destroyed if Goku and Beerus continued fighting. Keep in mind that the Elder Kais are among the highest authority in the universe and they all stated that three clashes between Goku and Beerus would have destroyed the universe.

As for the fact that he can only do this feat whilst clashing with Beerus. Well, put it this way, if Goku were to punch just about anything in his God form at full power, then that thing would be instantly destroyed. The whole reason that Beerus was actually capable of creating those uinversal shockwaves is because he was durable enough to tank Goku's punches.

Also even though the shockwaves got stronger the further away from the source, the key point is that it was created by the energy of Goku and Beerus. And again the fact that it lasted over time is unimportant due to the statements made by the Kais and Whis

Beerus might not have been serious in the fight, but crucially he was matching Goku's power meaning that exactly half of the energy that was created is because of Goku. This means that Goku can destroy half the universe in 6 punches.

Given this and the fact that SSJB > SSJG, it's reasonable to state that SSJB Kaio-Ken is universe level

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

The shockwaves becoming stronger as they traveled further away is likely just PIS. Fiction hardly ever follows the rules of reality. The profile we have for Agyo notes that we have no idea on whether it involved the space-time of Universes or not. That said if Goku wasn't comparable in some way he would have been obliterated in the clash. I disagree with the downgrade.

 

[Akuto_Sai12]

If the shockwaves did get stronger the further they traveled then King Kais planet should've been dusted that said i don't really care for this since Goku will get even more impressive feats either way

 

[Majin_Acolyte]

Goku still contributed. He still kept up with these universe-busting punches. If Beerus was 60% of the force behind those blows, Goku probably would have died.
You're basically saying the feat is invalid for Goku, which is absurd.

There's also the fact Goku wasn't even applying full force to his punches. He was trying to cancel the force of Bills' punch the entire time.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

After thinking about it, I don't know why we cannot just leave it at Goku will get stronger anyway. Some fights on here use characters at specific points in their timeline, true, but more often, to me, anyway, it seems like it is always the latest and the greatest.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Staff have discussed this in detail and the results of it won't be changing, regardless of what this thread believes.

On that point, i'm going to save everyone some time and close this thread