Review about Instant Death.

[Azertyhuuh]

I want to discuss the contradictions between the novel Instant Death and the novel The Demon King vs. the Hero regarding narrative, as the two works contradict each other in many ways, and one of the most important is the matter of infinity, which is said to be merely an abstract concept.

First, in the novel Instant Death, the term "infinity" is mentioned in every context. Beyond that, there is the statement of the Ultimate God, who is the greatest in the entire novel, and who himself said that there are all possible worlds (all conceivable worlds) in the series. This is the word of the Ultimate God, and the word of the Ultimate God is equivalent to the word of the author himself, as he is the only one who knows everything in the novel and knows everything.

In contrast to that, the statement that came from the novel The Demon King vs. the Hero, which came from one of the random characters claiming that the concept of infinity is an abstract concept, remains only her personal opinion since it is not supported by additional contexts, statements from the author, or other remarks. Because we do not take a single context and ignore all other contexts; if we followed this logic, we would have to upgrade half of all works to very high levels based on a single context issued by a character within the work. A prime example is the statement from one of the leaders in Bleach who said that the Soul King is the king of spacetime and all infinite dimensions. Now, based on this statement alone, should we make the Soul King High 1-B and assume that the cosmology is also High 1-B? There is something called personal opinion. Not everything said in a work by a character is true if it is not supported by other contexts and clear statements, especially when that statement contradicts what is stated in the novel and a character like the Absolute God himself.

The evidence ↓

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ibb.co

Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٣ ٥٤ ٤٦ ١٤ 99c04817c0de5652397fc8b56c3b3817 hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٣ ٥٤ ٤٦ ١٤ 99c04817c0de5652397fc8b56c3b3817 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٣ ٥٦ ٢٧ ٢٦ 99c04817c0de5652397fc8b56c3b3817 hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٣ ٥٦ ٢٧ ٢٦ 99c04817c0de5652397fc8b56c3b3817 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

I ask everyone to please give their opinion on this respectfully this time. Also, I do not deny what @SweetDao said regarding the relationships or that they share the same cosmology and those evidences. However, even so, the fact that they are different narratives with different stories and characters means that not every statement or single context from a random character is necessarily true, especially if it contradicts everything mentioned in the novel and particularly with the Ultimate God.

Agree: @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Reiner04 @SweetDao

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[SweetDao]

I think it's a fair thread for once, so If you can wait I finish work I can address your concerns (or if anyone else want to do so, feel free)

 

[Cipher72]

Following neutral for now

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I think it's a fair thread for once, so If you can wait I finish work I can address your concerns (or if anyone else want to do so, feel free)

Alright, I'm waiting.

 

[SweetDao]

Also please guys, don't meme for once.

 

[ROZAN-U]

Rather than making a low-effort post with three scans, you could have refuted the argument he used to remove "infinite" from the verse.

It's here.

I disagree as of now

 

[Robo432343]

'...remains only her personal opinion since it is not supported by additional contexts, statements from the author, or other remarks...'
This is not true FRA...

 

[BoastJr]

I disagree for now

 

[Re5yh]

Yogiri is just not that strong, at all.

So dissagre

 

[sukuna171]

Spoiler

If she wanted to, she could create an infinite space between herself and the outside world. Hiruko swung her hand in a chopping motion. The shock wave it created sliced through the grass in front of her, but in moments, the grass was back to normal. The split blades immediately stitched themselves back together.

Spoiler

"Ah, you were the one who manipulated space."　Daimaou nodded her head in understanding.I think you can understand the ...... way, can't you? You can't reach me, you know. I manipulate space-time and control infinity. There is an infinite gap between you and me. It seems my attack didn't get through, but your attack didn't get through to me either...”　The Great Demon King waved one hand carelessly. Her hand sword ripped through space. Patty could not tell what it cut through, but she could see that the Great Demon King had cut through something of his own volition.　One of Ganze's hands fell. His right hand, with its heavy cuirass, fell, making a dull thud.　More than pain, more than fear, the thought of unreasonableness prevailed. Distorting space and building infinite distance. Any attack is meaningless if it cannot reach you. This is the best defense Ganze has. But it was easily broken. He didn't understand the meaning. Infinite means literally limitless. No attack could ever reach him.

Spoiler

“We don't know how many parallel worlds there are, but if it's a world that branches off with slight differences in conditions, it would exist infinitely. No matter how unreasonable the conditions were, there should have been a result eventually.”

Spoiler

Luciela quietly drew the knife.

The infinite possibilities arising from that movement converged into a single point, eliminating the possibility of missing.

The knife was supposed to pierce Paella.

But the knife flew in the wrong direction, along with Luciela's arm.

"What?" That shouldn't have happened.

There was no such future in Paella's movements.

It was an impossible sight.

A white, beautiful hand flew away, dripping with blood.

Honestly, sometimes Fujitaka's writing makes no sense. One moment infinite is a concept, and the next it’s not—I blame him for that.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Alright, first, let me clarify something important that some may not have noticed or are unaware of regarding the concept of infinity itself. We all know that this concept has been controversial among scientists and philosophers for centuries, and even to this day, the concept of infinity is abstract and has no concrete reality in its explanation or application in the real world meaning there is no actual physical infinity, nor can we measure mathematical infinity. This concept can only be applied in mathematics, as all philosophers and scientists, including Max Tegmark himself, who proposed the Type 4 Multiverse theory, do not acknowledge the existence of infinity. To this day, he argues and says there is no evidence for its existence and that it is better to avoid or disregard it. In short, the concept of infinity, as presented by scientists and philosophers, is related to human understanding. Scientists say this concept cannot be grasped by the mind; our minds cannot comprehend something infinite in reality, which leads us to say that this concept is abstract and has no application in reality. This is how scientists and philosophers have agreed that the concept of infinity is abstract and has no application in reality a concept that has been debated for centuries and continues to be so.

Evidence ↓

Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٥ ٣٠ ٥٧ ٩١ 40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12 hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٥ ٣٠ ٥٧ ٩١ 40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٥ ٣٦ ٠٩ ٧٥ 40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12 hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٥ ٣٦ ٠٩ ٧٥ 40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٥ ٢٦ ٠٤ ١٠ 40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12 hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot ٢٠٢٦ ٠١ ١٥ ١٥ ٢٦ ٠٤ ١٠ 40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

The character’s statement here about infinity is only a definition of it, and this statement that was mentioned in the novel The Demon King vs. the Hero is the following ↓

"Infinity is an abstract concept. However, its implementation does not exist. Don't get that wrong. What you think of as infinity is merely something long enough to seem infinite, but it is not infinity itself. So..."

The concept of infinity is an abstract concept that has no actual application in reality, and even Tegmark himself argues about its existence, as do philosophers. As I said above, and regarding discussions about infinity, what was mentioned in the novel reflects the views of scientists and philosophers about the concept of infinity up to the present day. The concept of infinity currently exists only in mathematics, and its real existence is not acknowledged; rather, it is described as an abstract concept. It is stated that the concept of infinity cannot be comprehended by the human mind, which leads us to say that something is merely so large that we cannot grasp it. The issue is related to the limitations of our minds in understanding this concept, and this is what philosophers and scientists have argued. Because of this, the existence of infinity is also disputed and it is presented as a purely abstract concept with no actual existence.

— The concept of actual infinity is currently controversial among people, scientists, and philosophers alike. Our perspectives differ from person to person regarding how one chooses to understand it—whether to believe in it or not. However, it remains an abstract concept with no practical application, as stated by scientists and as mentioned above. In the novel The Demon King vs. the Hero specifically, the character who mentioned this did so based on the definition of this concept and its perceived impact on our lives today, which reflects what is currently agreed upon. However, in this forum, infinity is treated as a clear concept, not an abstract one, because it exists within fiction and is detached from all of that. Therefore, we should not rely on characters’ statements on this matter, because this concept has different interpretations. What we do know is that all scientists and philosophers, including Tegmark, debate this concept and consider it an abstract one with no actual existence. For this reason, works such as anime, novels, and others refer to it, since most works naturally base their cosmology on theology, multiverse theories, and philosophical discussions, especially when using such terminology. Thus, it is not strange to see such statements coming from a character; this is normal. Ultimately, the matter depends on our level of understanding of the concept, as scientists and philosophers have explained. The term infinity is rejected by the mind because it is something the mind cannot comprehend, which leads them to reject the concept itself and say that it is merely something so vast that we cannot grasp it, and that it does not truly exist. This is the result of our limited minds being unable to تصور (conceive) the concept of infinity. However, in this forum, we should not take such explanations too seriously; we do not doubt infinity here, and we must take into account that there are controversial concepts like this.

I will give you an idea of how such things should be taken into consideration:

For example, if a work states that a certain world is infinite, then that world is infinite. But if one of the characters rejects that and says that infinity is an abstract concept with no real application, and so on, this does not mean that the world is not infinite. In this situation, we treat it as an explanation of the concept itself, starting from the principle of the concept as discussed by philosophers and scientists. As we mentioned, this concept is controversial and is often defined as abstract and not believed to exist. Therefore, we in the forum should not take such statements at face value, because we already know that this concept is inherently controversial and that authors borrow real-world concepts; this interpretation results from that. We can say that this current explanation, as scientists state, is related only to the limitations of the human mind. Thus, any character who says that infinity is an abstract concept with no real application does not affect the cosmology, due to the difference between the definition of this concept in the forum and outside it.

— There is one thing that would negate this, and that is if it is stated that a world is infinite and then later they reach its end, or it is said to have an end, or there is a contradiction such as saying that time is infinite but then it ended this would negate infinity. In that kind of case, yes. But merely mentioning the concept of infinity and related discussions does not negate anything, given the nature of the concept itself.

 

[SweetDao]

First of, I'd just say it again that I'm on phone so it's really not the optimal way to answer but I'll try my best to be concise.

I want to discuss the contradictions between the novel Instant Death and the novel The Demon King vs. the Hero regarding narrative, as the two works contradict each other in many ways, and one of the most important is the matter of infinity, which is said to be merely an abstract concept.

I don't believe both novels contradict themselves in any way that I can think of right now. Maybe it does on smaller stuff, but if anything, it actually expand on stuff we already know or stuff that we know exist but never had any explanation. See the magical power stuff, the way how magic works, more information about the way Gods acts/govern the worlds...

First, in the novel Instant Death, the term "infinity" is mentioned in every context.

What do you mean by this exactly?

Beyond that, there is the statement of the Ultimate God, who is the greatest in the entire novel, and who himself said that there are all possible worlds (all conceivable worlds) in the series. This is the word of the Ultimate God, and the word of the Ultimate God is equivalent to the word of the author himself, as he is the only one who knows everything in the novel and knows everything.

I agree with you that Ultimate God is without a doubt in the most knowledgeable character in the work, there is no problem with that postulate. However, I think you're hyper focusing to much on one aspect of his statement and not on the rest.

He himself stated that a world is the range of cognition/awareness, and obviously, Ultimate God's awareness (excluding singularities) is the highest in the whole verse. However he also state that not only "omnipotence and omniscience" are just pseudo-power, not REAL omniscient and omnipotence, but also that he can't be sure that there aren't world he isn't aware of.

I can't show the scan right now (don't have the volumes downloaded on the phone, but if really needed I'll try to find a way)

In contrast to that, the statement that came from the novel The Demon King vs. the Hero, which came from one of the random characters claiming that the concept of infinity is an abstract concept, remains only her personal opinion since it is not supported by additional contexts, statements from the author, or other remarks

I think you're really underestimating Paella. It's probably because you don't know here well but she has a massive amount of knowledge when it comes to the verse. Be it the way magic work or mathematical concepts. She also someone very down to earth.

Moreover, as shown in the last thread that Rozan kindly linked, it isn't something that was once stated and everything else is contradictory, I firmly believe that it's still the view of Fujitaka for now.

Be it Mitsuki directly stating he can't give infinite energy (meaning that as a result, no God below him could)

Be it the Omega Sword not being able to create anything related to infinity.

I'm sure there are other examples but you get the idea.

---
Concerning the scans you have in the OP, the first one is from a MTL but since the official translation says the same I think it's fine. However, here in VSB, we don't simply give a rating because someone once said "all possible worlds" once (especially since in the context, it was merely referring to the worlds he knows about).

Regarding the second one, there is two issue. We know that range of awareness is conditioned by the power of one's individual (Ultimate God being the strongest and as such, having the biggest range we know officially) so since we know UEG isn't the strongest, that it is stated her senses can't "see the end of the darkness" isn't truly relevant. Additionally, that space she was in is extremely ambiguous since for a long time many people believed it was related to Yogiri's true form, which is a claim substantiated by nothing (and if anything, it is highly contradictory with the claim that Yogiri "true form" is a rule) so I don't think it's terribly relevant for your case.

For the third scan, while it's true Kouryu explain a theory many gods believe (and that to some extent was validated by Ultimate God existence) no one has an awareness/reach far enough to actually assert with certainty that the space and time are infinite.

ask everyone to please give their opinion on this respectfully this time. Also, I do not deny what @SweetDao said regarding the relationships or that they share the same cosmology and those evidences.

I thank you for being reasonable on this aspect. However, you can understand that there is definitely an issue at hand here. In the most recent Webnovel of Fujitaka (Instant Death Gaiden) Yogiri makes an appearance and the whole setting of said story happens inside Paella's world. If something happens in paella world (let's say that magic can heal) you can't reasonably assume that "it doesn't work in Instant Death" when it's the same setting and same environment (and same character to some extent).

---
Regarding this :

Honestly, sometimes Fujitaka's writing makes no sense. One moment infinite is a concept, and the next it’s not—I blame him for that.

The first scan is similar to what the God with time and space power does (pictures Gojo's infinity) so I don't think it's a problem.

The second one is one with a lot of interpretation honestly. If you take the side of Paella, infinite here is really just a big number, if you assume a neutral stance, one might want to think it's actually infinite.

The scan about possibilities is one without much issue since possibilities are abstract and thus can be infinite if needed.

 

[Iiliminal]

Yakub and his children approve of this CRT therefore anything sweetdao says does not count due to the overwhelming power of Yakub

 

[sukuna171]

Regarding this :

The first scan is similar to what the God with time and space power does (pictures Gojo's infinity) so I don't think it's a problem.

The second one is one with a lot of interpretation honestly. If you take the side of Paella, infinite here is really just a big number, if you assume a neutral stance, one might want to think it's actually infinite.

The scan about possibilities is one without much issue since possibilities are abstract and thus can be infinite if needed.

Also, I can't remember the girl's name, but she had a dimension with countless doors and an infinite hallway.

 

[SweetDao]

Also, I can't remember the girl's name, but she had a dimension with countless doors and an infinite hallway.

Yeah but that one is also a problem, because not only it is stated, verbatim, that her power is to create SMALL world, but also that the energy she uses is from the stone inside her body, which is a fragment of Luu, which mean her energy can't be infinite either. Mitsuki really just ruin everyone's fun here.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

First of, I'd just say it again that I'm on phone so it's really not the optimal way to answer but I'll try my best to be concise.

I don't believe both novels contradict themselves in any way that I can think of right now. Maybe it does on smaller stuff, but if anything, it actually expand on stuff we already know or stuff that we know exist but never had any explanation. See the magical power stuff, the way how magic works, more information about the way Gods acts/govern the worlds...

What do you mean by this exactly?

I agree with you that Ultimate God is without a doubt in the most knowledgeable character in the work, there is no problem with that postulate. However, I think you're hyper focusing to much on one aspect of his statement and not on the rest.

He himself stated that a world is the range of cognition/awareness, and obviously, Ultimate God's awareness (excluding singularities) is the highest in the whole verse. However he also state that not only "omnipotence and omniscience" are just pseudo-power, not REAL omniscient and omnipotence, but also that he can't be sure that there aren't world he isn't aware of.

I can't show the scan right now (don't have the volumes downloaded on the phone, but if really needed I'll try to find a way)

I think you're really underestimating Paella. It's probably because you don't know here well but she has a massive amount of knowledge when it comes to the verse. Be it the way magic work or mathematical concepts. She also someone very down to earth.

Moreover, as shown in the last thread that Rozan kindly linked, it isn't something that was once stated and everything else is contradictory, I firmly believe that it's still the view of Fujitaka for now.

Be it Mitsuki directly stating he can't give infinite energy (meaning that as a result, no God below him could)

Be it the Omega Sword not being able to create anything related to infinity.

I'm sure there are other examples but you get the idea.

---
Concerning the scans you have in the OP, the first one is from a MTL but since the official translation says the same I think it's fine. However, here in VSB, we don't simply give a rating because someone once said "all possible worlds" once (especially since in the context, it was merely referring to the worlds he knows about).

Regarding the second one, there is two issue. We know that range of awareness is conditioned by the power of one's individual (Ultimate God being the strongest and as such, having the biggest range we know officially) so since we know UEG isn't the strongest, that it is stated her senses can't "see the end of the darkness" isn't truly relevant. Additionally, that space she was in is extremely ambiguous since for a long time many people believed it was related to Yogiri's true form, which is a claim substantiated by nothing (and if anything, it is highly contradictory with the claim that Yogiri "true form" is a rule) so I don't think it's terribly relevant for your case.

For the third scan, while it's true Kouryu explain a theory many gods believe (and that to some extent was validated by Ultimate God existence) no one has an awareness/reach far enough to actually assert with certainty that the space and time are infinite.


I thank you for being reasonable on this aspect. However, you can understand that there is definitely an issue at hand here. In the most recent Webnovel of Fujitaka (Instant Death Gaiden) Yogiri makes an appearance and the whole setting of said story happens inside Paella's world. If something happens in paella world (let's say that magic can heal) you can't reasonably assume that "it doesn't work in Instant Death" when it's the same setting and same environment (and same character to some extent).

---
Regarding this :

The first scan is similar to what the God with time and space power does (pictures Gojo's infinity) so I don't think it's a problem.

The second one is one with a lot of interpretation honestly. If you take the side of Paella, infinite here is really just a big number, if you assume a neutral stance, one might want to think it's actually infinite.

The scan about possibilities is one without much issue since possibilities are abstract and thus can be infinite if needed.

No, I am not denying or underestimating Puella at all. I know she is very strong and also possesses vast knowledge. However, regarding this specific point about her statement below ↓

"Infinity is an abstract concept. However, its implementation does not exist. Don't get that wrong. What you think of as infinity is merely something long enough to seem infinite, but it is not infinity itself. So..."

Regarding what she said here, I have already addressed it and responded to you. It is not about the extent of her knowledge or anything like that. I actually explained this matter in a previous comment of mine, here it is ↓

Post in thread 'Review about Instant Death.' https://vsbattles.com/threads/review-about-instant-death.187036/post-7491863

Please review the comment and read it, as I clarified this point within it.

 

[SweetDao]

Please review the comment and read it, as I clarified this point within it.

Alright I will do, give me some time.

 

[SweetDao]

There is one thing that would negate this, and that is if it is stated that a world is infinite and then later they reach its end, or it is said to have an end, or there is a contradiction such as saying that time is infinite but then it ended this would negate infinity. In that kind of case, yes. But merely mentioning the concept of infinity and related discussions does not negate anything, given the nature of the concept itself.

I'm not sure about everything you mentioned and the point you're trying to make. I'll make a summary and feel free to correct me if you think I missed something or misinterpreted something.

You're basically saying that Infinity is more or less an abstract concept and that it has been seen that way by a lot of philosophers and such, therefore you agree with that point.

However, your counterargument for the case at hand (Instant Death) is that since it's a character statement, it shouldn't be taken into account and we should only focus on what is shown directly to us.

I can understand your point, but I think you don't see the issue here. If that's the case, then we shouldn't take any character's statement into account, no Mitsuki, no UEG, no Kouryu, No Ultimate God ect, because you could always say that it's merely their interpretation of any given event happening and not the true facts themselves.

Look. Mitsuki says he can't realize illogical things and give infinite energy. Who do you think would be more reliable than him to know the extent to his power, beside the narrator?

Similarly, what about the Omega Sword (with the spirit/AI/assistant) that explains the possibilities of the sword and clearly define a limit with "it can't realize anything related to infinity" (since it uses the energy present in the world)?

I don't think it's a good way to invalidate statement merely because it comes from a character. On the contrary, we take them into consideration unless something else happen that might discredit that idea which, from my point of view, didn't happen for now.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I'm not sure about everything you mentioned and the point you're trying to make. I'll make a summary and feel free to correct me if you think I missed something or misinterpreted something.

You're basically saying that Infinity is more or less an abstract concept and that it has been seen that way by a lot of philosophers and such, therefore you agree with that point.

However, your counterargument for the case at hand (Instant Death) is that since it's a character statement, it shouldn't be taken into account and we should only focus on what is shown directly to us.

I can understand your point, but I think you don't see the issue here. If that's the case, then we shouldn't take any character's statement into account, no Mitsuki, no UEG, no Kouryu, No Ultimate God ect, because you could always say that it's merely their interpretation of any given event happening and not the true facts themselves.

Look. Mitsuki says he can't realize illogical things and give infinite energy. Who do you think would be more reliable than him to know the extent to his power, beside the narrator?

Similarly, what about the Omega Sword (with the spirit/AI/assistant) that explains the possibilities of the sword and clearly define a limit with "it can't realize anything related to infinity" (since it uses the energy present in the world)?

I don't think it's a good way to invalidate statement merely because it comes from a character. On the contrary, we take them into consideration unless something else happen that might discredit that idea which, from my point of view, didn't happen for now.

No. It seems you didn't understand my point at all.

Okay, I'll explain briefly, and I don't know if I can summarize or clarify it better, but I'll try.

First, regarding concepts, they are fixed. Most concepts are fixed, with their own specific definitions that everyone agrees on, such as the concepts of death, life, time, etc. These are clear, fixed concepts where there is no doubt among everyone, and you won't find anyone objecting to them or presenting them differently.

← I am now talking about the concept of infinity itself. This concept is not a fixed concept like all the others. This concept has sparked debate for very long centuries among scientists and philosophers over how to interpret and understand it. Most scientists and philosophers have agreed, even to this day, that the concept of infinity is an abstract concept that has no existence in reality whatsoever; rather, this concept only applies to mathematics. That is, it is only possible in mathematics, and that's why philosophers and scientists have said about this concept that it is an abstract concept. Do you know the reason? The reason is that this concept cannot be applied to reality, and the mind cannot comprehend this concept. Our mind cannot comprehend something infinite or unlimited, which leads the mind and leads you to say that the concept of infinity is an abstract concept with no application in reality, and that everything is merely something very large and not infinite. This is what scientists have said, and this is what Puella said, and it is mentioned in the novel itself. Copying and pasting the concept of infinity and the exact words of scientists into the novel. Even Tegmark, who proposed the Type 4 Multiverse theory, does not believe in infinity, questions its existence, and rejects it. Even though the Type 4 Multiverse is at a Low 1-A level, the very person who proposed the theory rejects the idea of actual infinity and says there is no evidence for its existence. Puella's words in the novel reflect the words of scientists and philosophers; they are the same. That sentence she said is the exact words of scientists and philosophers and what they said about the concept of infinity. You can refer to that comment; I provided evidence there (Puella's exact words = the words of scientists and philosophers and the exact explanation of the concept of infinity, word for word).

In short, this concept is controversial, but on this forum we consider infinity to be a complete concept. If a character says that the concept of infinity is an abstract concept and that it has no application in reality, etc., that relates only to their personal interpretation of this concept, and this happens due to the limitation of the mind, as it cannot comprehend something like the concept of infinity, which leads it to say that it is an abstract concept with no application in reality or that something is merely very large. This pertains only to their explanation of the concept.

If Puella had explicitly stated that the world is not infinite, or simply said that there is no infinite world in the finite set, that would have been clearly convincing and sufficient. However, she explained the concept of infinity in her words, and this concept is not fixed and only reflects the words of scientists and philosophers. This is because authors rely on scientists' words and all these concepts when creating the cosmology for their work. But in fiction, on the forum, we acknowledge infinity.

In short, Puella explained the concept of infinity, and this concept is not fixed and is controversial. Puella's words are the exact same words of scientists and philosophers, without the slightest change copy and paste about the concept of infinity. This is only her personal interpretation of this concept, not a denial of the cosmology within it. To give you an example now: suppose a scientist today tells you that the concept of infinity is an abstract concept (and this is actually what most scientists have said to this day), and there is another group that does not see it that way they see the concept of infinity as existing and real. Would these conclusions now change the truth of the world? They are all scientists, and they all possess knowledge of concepts, yet despite that, there is a difference of opinion regarding their explanation of the concept of infinity. Would these conclusions now affect the truth of the entire world? No, of course not. We still don't know if it is infinite or not, but this is only an explanation of the concept. However, the truth is not known.

I consider this only an explanation of the concept of infinity, and this concept has different views and interpretations among scientists. It is not about knowledge; all scientists and philosophers possess knowledge of concepts, yet they differ on the meaning of this concept, and this does not affect the nature of the world in any way. In VSBW, the concept of infinity is treated as a reality. If we follow this logic, even Tegmark himself disagrees, so should we now not consider the Type 4 Multiverse at a Low 1-A level based on his words? Therefore, we cannot take her words about her explanation of the concept because it is a controversial concept. When this concept is infinity, we acknowledge it. Otherwise, she should have simply said that nothing is infinite; that would have been better.

 

[SweetDao]

In short, this concept is controversial, but on this forum we consider infinity to be a complete concept.

Obviously, as long as it's proven, if a world is stated to be infinite, we will not put into question it's state, we can agree on that.

If a character says that the concept of infinity is an abstract concept and that it has no application in reality, etc., that relates only to their personal interpretation of this concept, and this happens due to the limitation of the mind, as it cannot comprehend something like the concept of infinity, which leads it to say that it is an abstract concept with no application in reality or that something is merely very large. This pertains only to their explanation of the concept.

The issue is that it's not the case here. The person in front of her was a God who controlled space and time (and therefore controlled infinity as per the text stated), he boasted about how "his attacks and her attacks will never reach the other since there is now an infinite distance between the two." But Paella proved him wrong because :

1 : The gap between them was not infinite
2 : Explained to him that realizing infinity in a physical term is impossible.

No, of course not. We still don't know if it is infinite or not, but this is only an explanation of the concept. However, the truth is not known.

We can indeed agree on that, if there are contradictory statement and no concrete proof, it's hard to truly pinpoint the exactitude of the world.

In VSBW, the concept of infinity is treated as a reality

Again, you can ask a staff if necessary, but that's the case only when nothing is contradicted.

If someone state that "the universe is infinite", without anything contradictory and if the character is knowledgeable, it would be rated at High 3-A (and Low 2-C but that's not topic and not important here).

Now if someone knowledgeable in the verse says the opposite (nothing is infinite in the world) and that nothing contradict it and that some other statements from other characters or narration gives additional evidence to it, there is no reason to assume it was false.

Otherwise, she should have simply said that nothing is infinite; that would have been better.

Saying that "Infinity can't exist physically" and saying "Nothing in the world is infinite/can be infinite" is legit the same statement tho...

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Obviously, as long as it's proven, if a world is stated to be infinite, we will not put into question it's state, we can agree on that.

The issue is that it's not the case here. The person in front of her was a God who controlled space and time (and therefore controlled infinity as per the text stated), he boasted about how "his attacks and her attacks will never reach the other since there is now an infinite distance between the two." But Paella proved him wrong because :

1 : The gap between them was not infinite
2 : Explained to him that realizing infinity in a physical term is impossible.

We can indeed agree on that, if there are contradictory statement and no concrete proof, it's hard to truly pinpoint the exactitude of the world.

Again, you can ask a staff if necessary, but that's the case only when nothing is contradicted.

If someone state that "the universe is infinite", without anything contradictory and if the character is knowledgeable, it would be rated at High 3-A (and Low 2-C but that's not topic and not important here).

Now if someone knowledgeable in the verse says the opposite (nothing is infinite in the world) and that nothing contradict it and that some other statements from other characters or narration gives additional evidence to it, there is no reason to assume it was false.

Saying that "Infinity can't exist physically" and saying "Nothing in the world is infinite/can be infinite" is legit the same statement tho...

You still don't understand what I'm trying to say to you.

Regarding the person who said the distance between them is infinite, that's merely an exaggeration by that person and doesn't negate anything. All characters use this term and exaggerations in their speech, like saying "I have absolute power that no one can stop," and then they are stopped, or someone claims to be omnipotent, and then they can't do something and fail, and so on. This is called exaggeration in speech or in expressing a certain ability or power they possess, and this is a normal thing in the anime world, so it's irrelevant here.

Now, you're not understanding what I mean at all. I'm telling you that the concept of infinity is not fixed; it's controversial. Scientists and philosophers explain this concept in different ways, but most scientists and philosophers agree that infinity is an abstract concept. Even Tegmark himself questions this concept, rejects it, and says there is no evidence for it. Meanwhile, in VSBW, the concept of infinity is considered a real concept and is not defined as scientists agreed because most works, in their cosmology, follow what scientists and philosophers said, and cosmology is built on theories and so on. So, it's natural to find in works a character or characters explaining the concept of infinity as an abstract concept because this concept is different in VSBW from its original concept, which everyone agreed upon that the concept of infinity is abstract and not a reality.

Puella's statement is based on her understanding of the concept itself, not on the truth. Please focus here, and you'll understand what I'm saying to you. Please focus so we don't repeat the same thing. As I told you, Puella's statement about there being nothing infinite is based on her understanding of the concept of infinity as an abstract concept, as she said and as scientists exactly stated. She doesn't know if the world is infinite or not, but she concluded that the world is not infinite based on her understanding of the concept of infinity as not being real. She thinks the concept of infinity is abstract, which naturally leads her to say, of course, that nothing is infinite this is based on her understanding of the concept of infinity, especially since the work mentioned she has knowledge of concepts. Meaning, her conclusion that the world is not infinite depends on her understanding of the concept of infinity as an abstract concept, as scientists said, and not on her knowing that it is not infinite or that nothing is infinite. Rather, this conclusion came solely from her understanding of this concept. However, this concept in VSBW is considered real meaning the concept of infinity is a real concept, not abstract as Puella understands it. Puella thinks the concept of infinity is abstract, and thus she tells you nothing is infinite, while in VSBW this concept is real, making Puella's statement incorrect according to how we understand this concept in VSBW. Her statement was a result of her understanding of the concept only, and not about the world not being infinite, but rather a result of her understanding of the concept of infinity. This is what makes her statement not negate anything, since her statement is tied to her understanding of the concept of infinity as an abstract concept.

 

[SweetDao]

I think we'll just repeat ourselves at that point so let's wait for staff instead

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

@SweetDao makes much more sense for me, so I disagree with the thread, and my vote lies there too.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I think we'll just repeat ourselves at that point so let's wait for staff instead

Okay, I will wait. However, regarding possible worlds, you are taking an incorrect understanding of this statement, and this point also contributes to refuting what Paella said.

The translation clearly states that the Final Set contains all possible worlds, and your interpretation of it is not correct. The term possible worlds means all worlds that can possibly exist, not only those that already exist. The Absolute God did not say that the Final Set contains all worlds that currently exist; rather, he said that the Final Set contains all possible worlds. In all translations, you will find expressions such as all possible worlds, all conceivable worlds, or all types of worlds. In every translation, it is indicated that the Final Set includes all possible and conceivable worlds, which therefore also negates Paella statement.

Paella argument is based on her understanding of infinity as a purely abstract concept, and thus she believes that nothing infinite can exist, because she assumes infinity is merely an abstract concept. However, this is incorrect, as the concept of infinity itself is already controversial. On the forum, we consider infinity to be a concept that is not purely abstract as Paella assumes. Therefore, her statement is built upon her own interpretation of this concept. Furthermore, the Ultimate God also negates her claim by stating that the set contains all possible worlds. Please do not change this term, as it is very clear: possible worlds ≠ existing worlds. This is something everyone knows. All other translations confirm this as well (all types of worlds, all possible worlds, all conceivable worlds). In short, all translations expose this clearly.

 

[Reiner04]

This seems to be OP's first proper CRT so i will give it a read and comment.

 

[Orioreeem]

Agree with @SweetDad

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I partially agree, but you used the worst scans in the OP to justify this. Regardless, my main issue with with taking Paella's statement literally. The problem with her statement is that she was just chunnibyou'ing there. As we can see from this quote that Sukuna brought up here:

"Ah, you were the one who manipulated space."
　
Daimaou nodded her head in understanding.

I think you can understand the ...... way, can't you? You can't reach me, you know. I manipulate space-time and control infinity. There is an infinite gap between you and me. It seems my attack didn't get through, but your attack didn't get through to me either...”　

The Great Demon King waved one hand carelessly. Her hand sword ripped through space. Patty could not tell what it cut through, but she could see that the Great Demon King had cut through something of his own volition.　

One of Ganze's hands fell. His right hand, with its heavy cuirass, fell, making a dull thud.　

More than pain, more than fear, the thought of unreasonableness prevailed. Distorting space and building infinite distance. Any attack is meaningless if it cannot reach you. This is the best defense Ganze has. But it was easily broken. He didn't understand the meaning. Infinite means literally limitless. No attack could ever reach him.

[...]

"Infinity is an abstract concept, but its implementation doesn't exist. Don't get the wrong idea. What you think is infinite in size is merely vast enough that it appears to be likely infinite, so the thing itself isn't infinite at all."

~ Volume 4

The context of Paella saying that infinity does not exist, is because she is powerful enough to ignore distance/space. Later, she does the same thing again, but this time saying that no one is immortal (because she negates immortality):

Something's wrong. Nothing is going well. Luciela began to be seized with fear.

"Well, I don't know what you're surprised about...next you'll be surprised that you can't regenerate, right?"

Luciella looked at her own right arm as Paella spoke. It was gone from the shoulder down. The bleeding had stopped, but it hadn't regenerated any further. A wound like this should have been regenerated in an instant.

"Yes, yes. There were various people who boasted of being immortal, but they all died in the end. From that, we can conclude that immortality simply does not exist.", Paella said, a serene smile on her face.

Luciella stumbled backward. She put all her strength into prompting regeneration, but there was no response. She thought it was foolish. This regeneration was not only biological. It was a complete regeneration ability that could be activated even if the entire body was completely destroyed.

"Why...?" She didn't expect an answer. She just asked.

"It's simple. Since you were proud of your regeneration ability, I destroyed the information necessary for regeneration. I also deleted all backups, so you are now in your original form. Such tricks are not effective in the demon world, but it seems to have worked on you. And, there's no need to use time regression, it's a waste of time."

~Volume 5

So, are we going to say that there is no immortals in the verse? No, right? It's just Paella abusing her power and belittling opponents. Same with the first statement. So I don't think Paella's infinity statement should be used. The fact that the narration even goes to say "Infinite means literally limitless" is glaring enough to infer that what Paella said shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[SweetDao]

So, are we going to say that there is no immortals in the verse? No, right? It's just Paella abusing her power and belittling opponents. Same with the first statement. So I don't think Paella's infinity statement should be used. The fact that the narration even goes to say "Infinite means literally limitless" is glaring enough to infer that what Paella said shouldn't be taken seriously.

Quick say on that, I don't think people understand that statement really.

She is saying that people who boasted about immortality (here, being able to regenerate from their information, there was also someone with a time-manipulation bug inside him) all ended up dead, therefore (true immortality) doesn't exist. People can regenerate themselves, people can have some type of immortality (regeneration, resurrection, cloning,...) but they aren't "immortal" since they can die.

 

[Reiner04]

I partially agree, but you used the worst scans in the OP to justify this. Regardless, my main issue with with taking Paella's statement literally. The problem with her statement is that she was just chunnibyou'ing there. As we can see from this quote that Sukuna brought up here:



The context of Paella saying that infinity does not exist, is because she is powerful enough to ignore distance/space. Later, she does the same thing again, but this time saying that no one is immortal (because she negates immortality):



So, are we going to say that there is no immortals in the verse? No, right? It's just Paella abusing her power and belittling opponents. Same with the first statement. So I don't think Paella's infinity statement should be used. The fact that the narration even goes to say "Infinite means literally limitless" is glaring enough to infer that what Paella said shouldn't be taken seriously.

I am on same page as UMR considering the context provided.

 

[SweetDao]

Although yeah, I'm not completely against removing the infinity statement either, since I think the intent was clear enough regarding the whole parallel worlds stuff either. (Although what would it changed? Make everyone complete 2-B? If so I'm not against honestly)

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Quick say on that, I don't think people understand that statement really.

She is saying that people who boasted about immortality (here, being able to regenerate from their information, there was also someone with a time-manipulation bug inside him) all ended up dead, therefore (true immortality) doesn't exist. People can regenerate themselves, people can have some type of immortality (regeneration, resurrection, cloning,...) but they aren't "immortal" since they can die.

Yes. As I said, for her there are no true immortals since she can kill them (doesn't mean they actually aren't immortal). Likewise, for her there would be no infinity since she can bypass it (doesn't mean there can't be infinite spaces). Ultimately, it ends up the same.

 

[SweetDao]

Yes. As I said, for her there are no true immortals since she can kill them (doesn't mean they actually aren't immortal). Likewise, for her there would be no infinity since she can bypass it (doesn't mean there can't be infinite spaces). Ultimately, it ends up the same.

Hmmm...

I see your point, I don't think I fully agree with it, since I feel like her statements and an objective fact aren't so different since we've seen in a lot of Fujitaka's novel that truly, everyone can die lol, but it's plausible yeah.
(Unrelated can I DM you about something? Completely unrelated to the topic, although you can refuse)

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

(Although what would it changed? Make everyone complete 2-B? If so I'm not against honestly)

I think so.

 

[SweetDao]

I think so.

And change the cosmology to 2-A via the infinite universes statements? Does that seems fine to you?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

(Unrelated can I DM you about something? Completely unrelated to the topic, although you can refuse)

Sure.

And change the cosmology to 2-A via the infinite universes statements? Does that seems fine to you?

Which statement exactly?

 

[SweetDao]

Sure.

Which statement exactly?

The one with Bizarre's ability, check the downgrade thread Rozan sent on the few first messages

 

[sukuna171]

also, what about the sea being infinite and containing countless Celestial foundations.

Spoiler: countless foundations

There are countless Celestial Foundations, all floating in a space known as the “Sea.” The individual foundations are like bubbles in this Sea. By the way, aS we are comparing it to the ocean, the Sea also has a depth. If foundations are at the same relative depth, traveling between them is simple. Moving to a foundation at a lower depth is even easier, but moving up in the Sea is much more difficult. Doing so requires an enormous amount of energy. That is one of the reasons it is not so easy for Yogiri and Tomochika to return to their own worl

Spoiler

Celestial Disk:
The Celestial Disk is the vessel of the world and is considered the world itself.
Upon the Celestial Disk rest the cosmos—continents, stars, solar systems, and galaxies—where various intelligent lifeforms dwell.
The text explicitly states that the Celestial Disk is the universe.
Countless such Celestial Disks exist, all contained within a vast space called the “Sea.”
The Celestial Disks are covered by a robust shell called the Celestial Canopy, isolating them from the influence of the “Sea.”
Other worlds and the world the protagonists originally came from are contained within separate Celestial Disks as individual worlds.

 

[SweetDao]

also, what about the sea being infinite and containing countless Celestial foundations.

Spoiler: countless foundations

There are countless Celestial Foundations, all floating in a space known as the “Sea.” The individual foundations are like bubbles in this Sea. By the way, aS we are comparing it to the ocean, the Sea also has a depth. If foundations are at the same relative depth, traveling between them is simple. Moving to a foundation at a lower depth is even easier, but moving up in the Sea is much more difficult. Doing so requires an enormous amount of energy. That is one of the reasons it is not so easy for Yogiri and Tomochika to return to their own worl

Spoiler

Celestial Disk:
The Celestial Disk is the vessel of the world and is considered the world itself.
Upon the Celestial Disk rest the cosmos—continents, stars, solar systems, and galaxies—where various intelligent lifeforms dwell.
The text explicitly states that the Celestial Disk is the universe.
Countless such Celestial Disks exist, all contained within a vast space called the “Sea.”
The Celestial Disks are covered by a robust shell called the Celestial Canopy, isolating them from the influence of the “Sea.”
Other worlds and the world the protagonists originally came from are contained within separate Celestial Disks as individual worlds.

Where does the second scan comes from? I'm not aware of it but it seems like ID statement?

Otherwise yeah, the Sea would become... High 3-A?

Well we can devise everything in another thread, I'm fine with it

 

[Maniaunavailable]

agree with 2-B for everyone