Ren Amamiya Profile Updates

[Solacis]

So, to prepare for the coming cosmology revisions and the inevitable need to update the older profiles with newer templates and formats, I decided to get this out of my head.

Essentially, there are quite a few changes I'd like to implement when it comes to Ren's profile. Missing abilities here, explanations there, re-formatting, cutting out unneeded content, etc. I'll list the proposed changes below.

Concerning Ren's Abilities:

• Ren's abilities should be separated with tabbers into Base/On his own, w/ Personas, w/ Satanael and Optional Equipment.
• Ren is missing his optional items list and the corresponding abilities.
• Ren is missing abilities such as Magic (something all Persona-users should have), Creation (he recreated his equipment after rebelling against his execution) and Non-Physical Interaction (all Shadows should be considered Abstract Existences alongside being spiritual and mental constructs).
• Ren's Personas should be noted to be Non-Corporeal due to being manifested representations of his mental strength, and having no true physical body.
• Ren should have BFR using the Metaverse Navigator by bringing people into the Metaverse and leaving them there, which is basically a more direct version of Yaldy's BFR. Edit: This doesn't work unless Joker gets a powerless key.
• Ren's Satanael key is missing resistance to Resistance Negation from his feat of no-selling Rays of Control.
• A bit more debatable, but Ren w/ Satanael seemingly doesn't need SP to cast spells. Seeing as Ren healed his party and used Sinful Shell without his SP decreasing at all.
• Ren may or may not be replacing his Resistance to Existence Erasure with situational Mid-Godly Regenerationn, depending on how that thread goes. Edit: Mid-Godly is now a thing, so Resistance to EE should be removed.
• Ren should have his resistance to Fate Manipulation listed on his base key, instead of his late-game/end-game key, since it comes from his nature as the Wild Card. Edit: Ren should have Limited Fate Manipulation due to being noted several times by Chihaya that he changed other people's fates just through his interference.

Concerning Other Content:

• Ren's grappling hook should be added to his Standard Equipment.
• The Divine Pillar, Crystal Skull and Omnipotent Orb should be removed from Ren's Standard Equipment and their effects moved to his Optional Equipment tab. Putting aside the fact that doing this would make things so much easier for unfamiliar readers of the profile, outside of New Game+, it's nigh-impossible to obtain the Divine Pillar and actually impossible to obtain the Omnipotent Orb.
• Under Ren's Notable Attacks/Techniques, listing the Ultimate Personas is pointless, since it's already noted at the bottom of the page that he can theoretically have nearly any skill on nearly any Persona. It's easier to just list every active and passive skill in the game, barring obsolete ones like the weaker elemental skills, the lower-tier physical skills that don't inflict ailments, and the lower-tier passive skills that don't stack with their improved versions.

Updated relevant sections can be found on this blog post here.

 

[Jesterofgames]

"lower-tier passive skills that don't stack with their improved versions." Which lower tier passives don't stack?

 

[Solacis]

Counter, Counterstrike and High Counter, for example.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm glad to see that the Resistance to Resistance Negation with Satanael is getting attention. Otherwise though, I pretty much agree with everything though I'm really quite doubtful about adding BFR to his profile. Theoretically, it is possible to do so, but considering that he'd need to be outside of the Metaverse at the time to use it (and therefore away from his Persona's, and therefore just a regular school student) there is absolutely no practical combat-applicable way for him to use it, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

Again though, I otherwise agree with everything on here.

 

[Solacis]

I mean, P3 showed that it's technically possible to use Personas outside of places connected directly to the CU, but eh.

 

[DarkGrath]

Well... the way that Persona's work between games does have some consistent attributes, but there are still major differences when it comes to locations (from Tartarus, to the Midnight Channel, to Palaces and Mementos). My point is, the locations where Persona's are usable varies, but Ren specifically has never been demonstrated using his Persona outside of the Metaverse.

 

[Edwellken]

I don't think he needs a base key but I'm not really against it either.

The rest is good. If it's decided he shouldn't be able to use personas and BFR at the same time the latter can just be exclusive to his Base key.

 

[DarkGrath]

I don't think he needs a base key but I'm not really against it either.
The rest is good. If it's decided he shouldn't be able to use personas and BFR at the same time the latter can just be exclusive to his Base key.

Supposing he did get a base key, theoretically (which I'm not entirely against, mind you, but which I don't find to be necessary) what would his tier even be? At best he's usually depicted as being pretty fit, and otherwise has no other feats whatsoever, so... 10-A?

 

[Solacis]

The tabs aren't really separate keys and more like a what comes from what. The Personas tab is still separated into keys, after all. I might change it though if it's considered to be too much of a deviation from the standard format.

 

[Solacis]

Bump

 

[Solacis]

Made some edits. Bump

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I'm kinda 50-50 on the Fate Manipulation. Chihiya basically tells them their fate (or technically predicts the future) and Ren goes to Mementos to change their hearts. It's not really fate manipulation, it kinda just seems like convincing someone to stop what they're about to do and changes their motivations. Anyways, I agree with everything else. Ren should also get a key for when he's in the real world. It's not necessary, but if Kirito has one outside of the virtual world, Ren should too when outside of the Metaverse.

 

[Solacis]

Ren is a non-combatant outside the Metaverse, though. There wasn't a single case of direct physical conflict outside the Metaverse, so there's no point. Kirito at least had a few real-world skirmishes.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm kinda 50-50 on the Fate Manipulation. Chihiya basically tells them their fate (or technically predicts the future) and Ren goes to Mementos to change their hearts. It's not really fate manipulation, it kinda just seems like convincing someone to stop what they're about to do and changes their motivations. Anyways, I agree with everything else. Ren should also get a key for when he's in the real world. It's not necessary, but if Kirito has one outside of the virtual world, Ren should too when outside of the Metaverse.

It is explicitly shown in-game as a plot element that Chihaya is an actual fortune teller, who can predict the future with 100% accuracy. Also, Ren going into Mementos to change the future only happens once. Every other time he does it through completely different methods.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

That's true. Though I just prefer it. He does have a few hax though such as resistance to time manipulation, BFR, and enhanced senses for his real world self. So again, it's not necessary but I'd personally like it.

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, my general point there was just that the Fate Manip still seems valid to me. Given the way that Chihaya's fortunes are depicted narratively, it doesn't seem like Ren should be capable of doing anything to change the futures she predicts yet he consistently manages to do so every single time.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I didn't see your comment, sorry. I'm aware she's accurate when it comes to her fortunes (free money ovo) though she was only surprised because she doesn't know how Ren can change "fates". She's not aware of him being a Phantom Theif. All Ren really has to do is steal their hearts and it stop their original intentions. It's the same thing through the game to make people stop what they're about to do. But again, I'm 50-50 so I don't care if it's added or not.

 

[Solacis]

Ren changes the fates of other people just by giving them advice throughout Chihaya's Confidant. No heart-stealing needed. That's what Grath's referring to, I think.

Edit: Aside from that, I'd also like to ask. What do we classify the Evade passive skills as? Luck, Probability Manip or Instinctive Reaction?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

It could just be higher reaction speed.

 

[Solacis]

So just an automatic stat buff?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I believe the Ultimate Persona's should stay as they are a manifestation of all his completeted confidants. While he has others, I personally feel that they have more of a right to be on the file as they are the Ultimate Personas of that Arcana.

 

[Solacis]

Thing is, listing them is pointless fluff. It's the Notable Skills section, so what should be there are the notable skills. What Persona has them doesn't matter because it's already noted that he can whatever skill on whatever Persona, with few exceptions. It's not like Ren's any more likely to switch to those specific Personas compared to every other one he has.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Thing is, listing them is pointless fluff. It's the Notable Skills section, so what should be there are the notable skills."

So just because it's "pointless" as you say, it cannot be on the file? So just because it's "pointless" as you say, we have to get rid of it when it causes no harm?

"What Persona has them doesn't matter because it's already noted that he can whatever skill on whatever Persona, with few exceptions."

That's not the point. My point is that these personas are more worth having on the files as they themselves are the Ultimate Personas for his confidant and thus overall makes more sense to have on the file regardless of the other Personas he can use.

"It's not like Ren's any more likely to switch to those specific Personas compared to every other one he has."

Once again, not the point.

 

[Solacis]

This is an indexing wiki. Profiles have one job and it's to relay the necessary infomation for unfamiliar readers to understand the abilities of the character in question. They are not meant to serve as love letters to the character's story and/or franchise. Pointless things like that only serve to create misconceptions and waste people's time. So yes, there is a point to getting rid of it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"This is an indexing wiki."

This is an indexing wiki. This argument can also be argued to mean that the Ultimate Personas are worth indexing. Or that all Personas should be indexed. You understand that?

"Profiles have one job and it's to relay the necessary infomation for unfamiliar readers to understand the abilities of the character in question.They are not meant to serve as love letters to the character's story and/or franchise."

This is not a rule. Profiles can have relevant information as well as extra details that nod to their series, hence why galleries and such exist.

"Pointless things like that only serve to create misconceptions and waste people's time. So yes, there is a point to getting rid of it."

If people get misconceptions by virtue of Ultimate Personas being listed on the file then I worry for internet culture. There is not point as people are not trapjawed idiots who cannot read. People with common sense are not idiots and can see that this is a mere representation of the Personas he got from his finished confidants. So yes, there is also a point to keep them as well.

 

[HST_Master]

I mean, P3 showed that it's technically possible to use Personas outside of places connected directly to the CU, but eh.

I don't remember this, unless your referring to Medea choking Chidori in daytime. Fuuka however has been capable of using her Persona in the real world in P4AU.

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright, alright. It sounds like people are getting a bit on-edge here in these replies all around. Let's not make this discussion any more intense than it has to be.

 

[Jesterofgames]

I don't remember this, unless your referring to Medea choking Chidori in daytime. Fuuka however has been capable of using her Persona in the real world in P4AU.

Minato also killed Ryoji outside the dark hour in the bad ending

 

[Solacis]

-snip-

Look. The issue here is that including them messes up the profile's ability to quickly and effectively relay the information needed for VS matches.

Let's say we include them alongside the list of skills available in P5. What does that say to people who are unfamiliar with the Persona series? It implies that these are the strongest Personas and thus the only ones worth noting. The fact that they're called "Ultimate Personas" doesn't exactly help rectify this problem, either. It works against the idea that Joker's main schtick is his ludicrous versatility with the 191 Personas he has access to (barring DLCs) and their various attributes, instead of just the 21 Arcana Ultimates plus Satanael.

Half-measures are an issue. Satanael on his own is fine, since he warrants a key of his own, but if we list other Personas we have to list them all, or not at all. It's not like it's impossible. Tabbers are amazingly convenient for formatting, so I can list all the skills in one tab and list all the Personas and their affinities in another. It'll just mean more work for whoever has to sit down and type it; and since I suggested it, that person is me.

 

[DarkGrath]

I don't have a problem with the idea of tabbers for all the skills and personas, but for any one person (even if you are going about it willingly) that seems like far, far too much work.

 

[Solacis]

I mean, I've already listed every notable skill down on the link in the OP. So adding the Personas and putting them into tabbers is just marginally more work. Compared to how much I had to go through to fix up Ren's profile right after the Low 2-C revision, this is easy.

 

[DarkGrath]

Fair enough. If you are willing to do that, it would actually be pretty awesome of you.

 

[Chrisras]

Do we consider all persona games to have different set of rules in how to summon a persona? After all, P2 cast can summon them in the real world without problems.

 

[Solacis]

It's just a matter of ability, I'm pretty sure. Fuuka has already shown that it only takes more focus and practice to use a Persona in reality. The rest of the grown-up P3 cast has also shown that they don't even need Evokers to summon their Personas anymore.

 

[Solacis]

I've now finished the list of Personas in the blog post linked in the OP.

 

[Solacis]

@Dragonmasterxyz

Putting that aside, do you agree with the other changes?

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

Tabbers for P&A lists are snazzy and cool

Ofc I'm pretty ok with the actual abilities being added as well

 

[SinsofMan]

Most of these are fine. I am unsure personally unsure about Resistance to Fate Manipulation as Joker's base key based on the reasoning, but am not harshly opposed to it. Neutral on BFR and you already know my opinion on Regen since I think it is gray area. Fine with the suggestion, I think it can be much higher tho obv.

 

[Solacis]

- Joker was clearly changing fate even outside of the Metaverse, so it should be noted as such.

- BFR has been edited out of the OP because DarkGrath has a good point about that being practically useless. That, and it's out-of-character for Ren anyway, now that I think about it.

- Regen is regen. Mid-Godly was accepted, at least. We'll see if it gets bumped up to High-Godly once the regen revisions are done.

Are there enough agreements? Aside from Dragon, it's hard to find staff members to help evaluate Persona CRTs. There's Matt, who only pops in here once or twice a month, and Sera, who's taking an indefinite break. I'd take the job, but I doubt I'm qualified.

 

[SinsofMan]

@Solacis

You already are literally the only other person on this wiki I def trust with Persona. So yes.

Matt however should be more free since school ended for him. I am unsure if he would reply tho.

He is into like, 9000 verses.

We have enough agreements, I say pull the trigger unless you wanna ask Matt just to be sure.