Ren Amamiya (Joker)

[Therefir]

Is there any reason why in Joker's profile his last two keys list feats from the very same battle? Why not just fuse the key and call it "True End-Game" like the ability section already does? And the same goes to his "Vs. Holy Grail" and "False End-Game" keys.

His "higher with Willpower" and "far higher with Satanael" already covers any changes he might had during battle.

 

[Hypertornado099]

If what you're saying is true then its probably a mistake

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Is there any reason why in Joker's profile his last two keys list feats from the very same battle? Why not just fuse the key and call it "True End-Game" like the ability section already does? And the same goes to his "Vs. Holy Grail" and "False End-Game" keys.

His "higher with Willpower" and "far higher with Satanael" already covers any changes he might had during battle.

Because Adam Kadmon >>>>>> Azathoth

He is higher in the 1-A chain than Azathoth (I mean by layers, not scaling chain).

Azathoth and Adam Kadmon are treated as two different fights.

Adam Kadmon had two fights, one where the PTs win and the other they hold back one attack from a merged Maruki/Adam Kadmon which is far stronger than the first Adam Kadmon they beat.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Because Adam Kadmon >>>>>> Azathoth

He is higher in the 1-A chain than Azathoth (I mean by layers, not scaling chain).

Azathoth and Adam Kadmon are treated as two different fights.

Adam Kadmon had two fights, one where the PTs win and the other they hold back one attack from a merged Maruki/Adam Kadmon which is far stronger than the first Adam Kadmon they beat.

But why would Joker need 2 keys? Did he get several orders of magnitude stronger in the same fight?

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

But why would Joker need 2 keys? Did he get several orders of magnitude stronger in the same fight?

Yes. Adam Kadmon is on an entirely other level of power compared to Azathoth. And when Adam Kadmon fuses with Maruki, he’s significantly stronger compared to their unfused state.

- guy who wrote the profile.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Yes. Adam Kadmon is on an entirely other level of power compared to Azathoth. And when Adam Kadmon fuses with Maruki, he’s significantly stronger compared to their unfused state.

- guy who wrote the profile.

How many times stronger?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

How many times stronger?

A few layers higher into 1-A stronger.

Like how 1-C has 7D to 10D range, 1-A has 1 layer and above in range, and the gap between each one makes it that higher layered 1-A completely obliterate the lower 1-A even if the difference is 1 layer.

 

[Therefir]

I see, but can't this increase in power be explained using the "higher with Willpower" mention in his profile? We can just put the feats of fighting Adam Kadmon there.

By the way, what about Yaldabaoth? Other than transforming and getting bigger, I don't recall any statement that places him several layers above his Holy Grail form.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I see, but can't this increase in power be explained using the "higher with Willpower" mention in his profile? We can just put the feats of fighting Adam Kadmon there.

Azathoth and Adam Kadmon are treated as two different fights so I feel it's fine to keep him there.

 

[Hypertornado099]

A few layers higher into 1-A stronger.

Like how 1-C has 7D to 10D range, 1-A has 1 layer and above in range, and the gap between each one makes it that higher layered 1-A completely obliterate the lower 1-A even if the difference is 1 layer.

Oh ok. But can't Azathoth just downscale from Adam Kadmon? Has there been an instance in Persona where people grow several layers into 1-A? And by layers, do you mean like 1 layer = infinitely stronger?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

By the way, what about Yaldabaoth? Other than transforming and getting bigger, I don't recall any statement that places him several layers above his Holy Grail form.

He isn't? Where did you get that impression he was several layers above it?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Oh ok. But can't Azathoth just downscale from Adam Kadmon? Has there been an instance in Persona where people grow several layers into 1-A? And by layers, do you mean like 1 layer = infinitely stronger?

Nope, Adam Kadmon is tied with Stephen as the second strongest character in MegaTen just behind the Great Reason. His lore too makes him reach that level of power.

Yes, the entire series. Look into the Cognition page and read through the Reactive Evolution bit.

IIRC, a being who is a layer above in 1-A compared to another character stomps harder than a baseline 1-A character stomping a 10-B character. Not sure if that's completely correct though so don't quote me on that.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Nope, Adam Kadmon is tied with Stephen as the second strongest character in MegaTen just behind the Great Reason. His lore too makes him reach that level of power.

Yes, the entire series. Look into the Cognition page and read through the Reactive Evolution bit.

I read it, but how much stronger is 1 layer exactly?

 

[Therefir]

He isn't? Where did you get that impression he was several layers above it?

What? When did I say he was? I was asking why there's two keys in his case where there's no such statements.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

What? When I did I say he was? I was asking why there's two keys in his case where there's no such statements.

"By the way, what about Yaldabaoth? Other than transforming and getting bigger, I don't recall any statement that places him several layers above his Holy Grail form."

I thought you meant here. If that wasn't what you meant then my mistake.

He is significantly stronger in this form and it's a new transformation with new abilities and powers, so yeah it gets a different key.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I read it, but how much stronger is 1 layer exactly?

IIRC, a being who is a layer above in 1-A compared to another character stomps harder than a baseline 1-A character stomping a 10-B character. Not sure if that's completely correct though so don't quote me on that.

 

[Therefir]

He is significantly stronger in this form and it's a new transformation with new abilities and powers, so yeah it gets a different key.

I don't think there is any reliable statement to put him so significantly above his Holy Grail form that would deserve an entirely different key for Joker, especially when Joker doesn't appear to get any stronger until the masses started supporting him and the appearance of Satanael.

These keys should be merged, the Vs. Holy Grail key is pointless, it's not even listed in his ability section, and his feats against Yaldabaoth can either be placed in his justifications alongside fighting the Holy Grail or in his higher with Willpower mention, but as I said before I don't think he gets any stronger during the faces of transformation between Holy Grail to Yaldabaoth.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I don't think there is any reliable statement to put him so significantly above his Holy Grail form that would deserve an entirely different key for Joker, especially when Joker doesn't appear to get any stronger until the masses started supporting him and the appearance of Satanael.

These keys should be merged, the Vs. Holy Grail key is pointless, it's not even listed in his ability section, and his feats against Yaldabaoth can either be placed in his justifications alongside fighting the Holy Grail or in his higher with Willpower mention, but as I said before I don't think he gets any stronger during the faces of transformation between Holy Grail to Yaldabaoth.

Other profiles on the site have different keys for different forms in different verses, I don't know why this one needs to be singled out.

He would still scale higher to his original form regardless, though not sure on the scaling on where Yaldabaoth is so you might need to ask the others if you want a clear answer.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

I don't think there is any reliable statement to put him so significantly above his Holy Grail form that would deserve an entirely different key for Joker, especially when Joker doesn't appear to get any stronger until the masses started supporting him and the appearance of Satanael.

These keys should be merged, the Vs. Holy Grail key is pointless, it's not even listed in his ability section, and his feats against Yaldabaoth can either be placed in his justifications alongside fighting the Holy Grail or in his higher with Willpower mention, but as I said before I don't think he gets any stronger during the faces of transformation between Holy Grail to Yaldabaoth.

They can beat the Holy Grail after cutting it's threads. They cannot beat him when he transforms. He effortlessly one-shots them when he's done playing around. Please play the game.

Morgana literally says he's not holding anything back now:

 

[Therefir]

They can beat the Holy Grail after cutting it's threads. They cannot beat him when he transforms. He effortlessly one-shots them when he's done playing around. Please play the game.

What? That's a feat for the Holy Grail and Yaldabaoth not the Phantom Thieves, if anything it confirms they only beat the Holy Grail because they weakened him first, and once he regained his power and surpassed it, they didn't stand a chance without the support of the masses and Satanael.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

What? That's a feat for the Holy Grail and Yaldabaoth not the Phantom Thieves, if anything it confirms they only beat the Holy Grail because they weakened him first, and once he regained his power and surpassed it, they didn't stand a chance without the support of the masses and Satanael.

You do realize he was just healing himself from all the damage right when he was in the Holy Grail form? Nothing indicates he was getting anything else.

 

[Therefir]

Other profiles on the site have different keys for different forms in different verses, I don't know why this one needs to be singled out.

He would still scale higher to his original form regardless, though not sure on the scaling on where Yaldabaoth is so you might need to ask the others if you want a clear answer.

Yaldabaoth can keep his keys since he obviously got stronger after transforming, but I don't see the point of making different keys for Joker in each fight when we already have a mention of him using Satanael and getting stronger through Willpower.

Plus there's the fact that Yaldabaoth was stomping the PT when he started to get more serious.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

What? That's a feat for the Holy Grail and Yaldabaoth not the Phantom Thieves, if anything it confirms they only beat the Holy Grail because they weakened him first, and once he regained his power and surpassed it, they didn't stand a chance without the support of the masses and Satanael.

The Holy Grail isn't weakened power-wise, his constant regeneration is just negated. Nothing else you said is evidenced. Here, I'll layout the order of events since you evidently didn't play the game:


They face the Holy Grail the first time and fail because his threads keep constantly rejuvenating him, the HG then BFRs them out of Mementos while fusing the Metaverse w/ reality -> Phantom Thieves come back, now knowing how to beat him. They cut his thread, preventing the HG from regenerating and thus "beat" him -> The HG's full-body reveals itself in the form of Yaldabaoth, wherein Morgana states he is not holding anything back. -> Yaldy then proceeds to one-shot the Thieves, something the Holy Grail could not previously do.

 

[Therefir]

You do realize he was just healing himself from all the damage right when he was in the Holy Grail form? Nothing indicates he was getting anything else.

Sorry but I insist, the Holy Grail clearly states "Hm...? I'm no longer receiving the strength of the inmates!" after having his threads are cut.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Yaldabaoth can keep his keys since he obviously got stronger after transforming, but I don't see the point of making different keys for Joker in each fight when we already have a mention of him using Satanael and getting stronger through Willpower.

Plus there's the fact that Yaldabaoth was stomping the PT when he started to get more serious.

Because they're still able to fight a transformed Yaldabaoth, who should be massively more powerful than the HG. Even if it's holding back, the gap between the HG(who could not one-shot them) and Yaldabaoth(who can one-shot them) is still considerable enough to warrant a second key.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Sorry but I insist, the Holy Grail clearly states "Hm...? I'm no longer receiving the strength of the inmates!" after having his threads are cut.

This is extremely dishonest. This "strength" is only framed as him being able to regenerate. Futaba, the navigator who can point out power levels of enemies, only notes it cannot heal itself anymore. She never says the HG has gotten weaker.

Link:

 

[Therefir]

Such a gap it's imaginary and doesn't exist.

You are basically using Yaldabaoth one-shotting the PT later on as a way to say they should scale to him during the fight.

You are not making any sense.

 

[Therefir]

This is extremely dishonest. This "strength" is only framed as him being able to regenerate.

This is just your interpretation of a statement that is as clear as water, having the direct support of the inmates would obviously be more than just a healing technique, that's just how Persona works.

Futaba, the navigator who can point out power levels of enemies, only notes it cannot heal itself anymore. She never says the HG has gotten weaker.

This works against your interpretation, as Futaba never explicitly states Yaldabaoth got any stronger right after transforming.

But we obviously agree he indeed got stronger as he started stomping the PH later on, she not mentioning doesn't mean anything in both cases.

Anyway we are derailing from the original purpose, I still think that any increase in Joker's power, supported or not, can already be explained with "higher" with Willpower, he doesn't need any key for just one specific fight, it's a genuine waste of space in a profile that is already bloated as it is.

 

[Rabbit2002]

SMT will have a massive CRT in the future, so why don't we wait for it?

 

[Therefir]

SMT will have a massive CRT in the future, so why don't we wait for it?

If that's the case I'll wait and leave it there, I was mostly confused about having a key for a specific fight.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Such a gap it's imaginary and doesn't exist.

You are basically using Yaldabaoth one-shotting the PT later on as a way to say they should scale to him during the fight.

You are not making any sense.

If the Thieves are able to fight and survive attacks against a character, who was stated to be stronger than their previous iteration and can be later shown to one-shot them after they've exhausted themselves, it means they scale.

This is just your interpretation of a statement that is as clear as water, having the direct support of the inmates would obviously be more than just a healing technique, that's just how Persona works.

"that's just how Persona works" isn't an argument. Nor is anything else of what you just said. I want you to grab a statement from the game that proves the Holy Grail is getting a power boost from the threads. Not your flawed perspective on how Persona works.

This works against your interpretation, as Futaba never explicitly states Yaldabaoth got any stronger right after transforming.

"no reason to think he's stronger right after transforming"

I've already given a scan that features Morgana implying Yaldabaoth has gotten stronger. If you've played through the fight, you'll know he isn't moved whatsoever after that entire fight. Whereas as the HG, Yaldabaoth feels it necessary to transform for a power boost since he no longer has the threads connected to him providing constant regen from the Thieves' attacks.

I also want to note that Yaldabaoth one-shots them with Rays of Control and a seemingly very casual lightning attack. So he does it twice.

 

[Therefir]

If the Thieves are able to fight and survive attacks against a character, who was stated to be stronger-

He is not explicitly stated to be stronger, we know he is, but he was holding back and a restrained Yaldabaoth wasn't that much difficult to fight for the Phantom Thieves nor did they require any seemingly unsupported power to keep up with him.

Can be later shown to one-shot them

Just a feat for Yaldabaoth, once again I'm not negating he is stronger than before, but it doesn't require a specific key, the PT fought a full powered Holy Grail and then a holding back Yaldabaoth, that's about it.

I do agree that even a holding back Yaldabaoth is stronger than the Holy Grail, but to the point making up a new key for Joker? Nope, you can still keep up with your opponents even if they got stronger than before, especially if they got stronger by an unknown amount.

But as I said before I will wait for the revision Rabbit2002 mentioned, maybe someone will bother to mention more feats in those keys that would justify having them separately.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

He is not explicitly stated to be stronger, we know he is, but he was holding back and a restrained Yaldabaoth wasn't that much difficult to fight for the Phantom Thieves nor did they require any seemingly unsupported power to keep up with him.

You're just ignoring evidence at this point. Morgana says he's stronger, Futaba notes that when uses Rays of Control there's a huge spike in energy and after Yaldabaoth blasts them they're shown kneeling and evident exhaustion in their voices. It was 100% a more difficult fight for them compared to the Holy Grail.

Just a feat for Yaldabaoth, once again I'm not negating he is stronger than before, but it doesn't require a specific key, the PT fought a full powered Holy Grail and then a holding back Yaldabaoth, that's about it.

It does. A Yaldabaoth who is holding back(but still seen as more powerful by the cast) is > the HG, that much is made clear. If they're able to keep up with a character who is stronger than the previous enemy they fought and has the ability to one-shot them twice over after being done with playing around, there is no reason why they shouldn't get a second key.

I do agree that even a holding back Yaldabaoth is stronger than his Holy Grail, but to the point making up a new key for Joker? Nope, you can still keep up with your opponents even if they got stronger than before.

Megaten characters have been consistently shown to grow stronger as they fight an opponent stronger than them. You can check Joker or nearly any profile for that evidence. So the idea that the PTs got stronger overtime while fighting an enemy substantially stronger than them is well-within the confines of Persona. If you want an explicit example of that, just watch the Sanat fight from SMT IV.

 

[Therefir]

If they're able to keep up with a character who is stronger than the previous enemy they fought and has the ability to one-shot them twice over after being done with playing around, there is no reason why they shouldn't get a second key.

I would like to mention we cannot scale from someone who can one-shot you, they are scaling from a holding back Yaldabaoth which can't one-shot them.

Futaba notes that when uses Rays of Control there's a huge spike in energy and after Yaldabaoth blasts them they're shown kneeling and evident exhaustion in their voices. It was 100% a more difficult fight for them compared to the Holy Grail.

Yes the Rays of Control that ends up dealing immense damage to them and stomping them later on.

But I will drop the argument, as after rechecking the fight, Futaba does mention Yaldabaoth is on a totally different level. I will proceed to add this statement to their profiles, as it is a far more tangible proof of an increase in power (it should have already been there, but I understand when statements like this get overlooked).