Regarding Zen'o and his stats

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

As much as I hate to suggest this, regarding Zen'o, I personally believe that we should change all of his stats (except for his AP) to unknown for the time being. Reason being for suggesting this is because it makes absolutely no sense to give him stats with nothing backing it up as there isnt enough material in Super to give Zeno these stats.

Yes I am aware that Zeno is the very strongest and most powerful being in the Dragon Ball verse, capable of outshining even the likes of Beerus, Whis, Champa, Vados, and all of the other gods in the verse. In fact, anyone in the verse for that matter. Zeno truly is that powerful. But the fact of the matter (at least for now) is this: Zeno is not a fighter. He does not fight i any battles, he doesnt train, and he has never been given a reason to do anything of either. He doesnt do anything fighting-related. Beerus and Whis even admitted this in-series. And it's because that he doesn't fight, there is no reason to suggest he has the same physical stature and capabilities of that of the other gods. He is a king and, if we're going to throw logic into this, a king does not fight.

For those who think it's fine to give him any stat outside of his AP because "he can terrify Beerus, Champa, and everyone else", how does that relate to being faster and more durable? It, at best, would only mean Zeno is stronger than them and what's to say they are only scared of him because of his destroying power? What's to say Zeno is only stronger than everyone but while also a glass canon in everything else? For example. where is his Massively FTL rating coming from? Not only is he being refered to not be physically capable of doing that, but, if he was that fast he wouldnt need servants to take him to his desired destinations, such as the U6 and U7 tournament. Zeno may be above that of everyone else in power, but it's impossible to transfer it to his other stats if he doesnt even fight and (possibly) doesnt even destroy things through sheer power (suggested by Whis, though still 2-C regardless). And we cannot just give Zeno a rating he may logically not have because of these very reasonings. It might be viewed as, to others, as unfair and possibly a joke as some believe Zeno to be a complete unknown

I don't want to anger anyone with this as it would be a huge shame to do this to Zen'o, but I honestly believe its better to have all of his stats set to unknown except for his AP until we can get better material to justify him with more stats. Does anyone else agree or have concerns with this?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, it's not like we use him for battles anyway. If everyone else is okay with it, I don't really see that big a problem. Though it is common DBZ knowledge that power and durability are equal when it comes to ki...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if I remember correctly, he has been stated outright as being capable of making all universes cease to exist in the blink of an eye, and to be on a completely different scale of power than everybody else in the setting. This warrants the 2-C rating in itself.

In addition, given that everybody else are powerless to do anything about it, it does not make sense to have him be slower than they are. However, I suppose that placing "likely" or "possibly" in front of the speed and durability ratings, along with placing the striking strength rating at "Unknown" might be an idea.

 

[Ryukama]

We've already been through this before.

Zen'ō currently does not have anything suggesting that he uses hax unrelated to his destructive power to destroy things.

The only thing you have to support your argument, is the line that "Zen'ō does not fight." Which even then that line is immediately followed by them stating that despite not fighting, he is still physically the strongest by a ridiculous amount.

And Beerus and Champa would not be terrified of Zen'ō if they were millions of times faster than him and could destroy him with a flick. So him being a slow, glass cannon does not make sense.

Whis also said there is no one in the world who is greater than or above Zen'ō. I'm pretty sure Whis wouldn't say this about a guy he's able to blitz.

Maybe DBS will establish something different in the future, but as it stands there is currently a lot more to suggest Zen'ō simply being that fast and durable as well.

Rather than him being a weak, haxxed out glass cannon who somehow has people who can blitz and one shot him terrified of his presence.

I believe we should keep his stats as they are, and gladly change them if DBS goes a different direction than the one they're most likely currently going.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that Ryukama makes sense.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And Beerus and Champa would not be terrified of Zen'ō if they were millions of times faster than him and could destroy him with a flick. So him being a slow, glass cannon does not make sense.

Actually there are flaws in this statement

For one thing, this isnt the first time we have seen this in anime. We can take the Hokage and Fedual Lords from Naruto as an example. As it stands, the Fedual Lords have more authority over the land of fire than the Hokage do and frankly, rule more than they do. However, the fedual lords have absolutely 0 fighting abilities to stop even the likes of Tenten from killing them. The Hokage at any time could easily murder them and take over their respective lands instead of taking orders from non-ninja's, yet they dont do so. The same could also be said for the captains and the royal family in bleach. Or even any royal system when one is under the control of a King/Ruler. It's more of a royality/honor thing that prevents stronger characters from just one shotting normal people who are respected in high regards.

Another issue we have here is, while Beerus and Champa would probably do that, your forgetting about Whis and Vados, who are stronger than they are by a vast degree. They for one definitely respect Zeno and would prevent Beerus and Champa from doing anything that would directly harm or kill him. Plus Zeno's royal guard.

Finally, this may or so just be a guess, but quite frankly, why would they try and kill Zeno? His title and status as the kind of everything in the verse alone would prevent them from thinking of such a tatic and to them, it would be a ludicris thing to do. He doesnt need to be fast in order to be known as the strongest to them anyway.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

The "Unknown, At least" rating could work in a situation like this. It's trivial anyways, given Zeno can't be used in VS currently.

 

[Ryukama]

I am not knowledgable about Naruto, so I have no place determining whether or not your analogy is accurate.

However once again, it is just a matter of logic. Champa and Beerus may respect Zen'ō as a high authority figure, but to be so utterly terrified of his presence. Certainly they would not be able to instantly annihilate him. Especially people as wreckless and arrogant as those two who love holstering their power over others.

And you keep ignoring the constant statements of Zen'ō being physically the most powerful. Yet keep bringing up one statement, which if used in its full context, puts more against your point.

Nothing suggests Zen'ō is not physically powerful. If anything there is more going against that notion currently.

Hence we should keep them as they are based upon what currently makes the most sense and has the most backing it up. Rather than presumptions on the nature of his character that are unsupported as of now.

 

[LordAizenSama]

While it does make you wonder why he even has guards to begin with (It's likely a Parent/Guardian kind of role) I still think his stats are fine as they are

 

[Antvasima]

Well, his guards are also terrified of him.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And you keep ignoring the constant statements of Zen'ō being physically the most powerful. Yet keep bringing up one statement, which if used in its full context, puts more against your point.

Nothing suggests Zen'ō is not physically powerful. If anything there is more going against that notion currently.

But that's apart of my confusion about this, when was Zeno stated to be literally and/or specifically physically as powerful?

I remember Whis and/or Beerus stating that Zeno does not fight as him being a fighter would be illogical and uneccesary. If they said he doesnt fight, train or do anything like that but is just insanely strong, then why would they say he's physically as strong as they are?

 

[Ryukama]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h8k77FXtU24

1:11

They clearly say despite not fighting, he is still the strongest and far stronger than anyone else.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"Omni King does not fight. But he is indeed the strongest....Ridiculously stronger than anyone else."

Where does the implication of physically stronger come up from this? Power wise of course this makes sense (2-C in AP). But as in fighting? Combat? I've never seen or gotten an implication of that for Zeno

 

[Ryukama]

What else would they be talking about? Right there is them saying he's the strongest and his strength, not pure AP or hax, is much greater than anyone else's.

Along with other statements and actions that do not at all indicate what you're saying. Once again there is currently much more suggesting the God Tier of DB is simply this powerful. And it should stay this way unless we get actual evidence. Not assumptions and interpreting things differently than what they're clearly meant to indicate.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What else would they be talking about? Right there is them saying he's the strongest and his strength, not pure AP or hax, is much greater than anyone else's.

How about just his pure power? The fact they said he doesnt fight would contradict themselves if they meant physically as strong as well. How can you become physically as strong as they are without even training to get that?

If they were using "destroying all universes" as a justification to him being the strongest, then i'd likely take it they meant that in just AP, unless Zeno can physically destroy everything put before him as well which is highly unlikely.

 

[Ryukama]

Doesn't currently fight =\= isn't strong. If anything it'd make sense for him to never bother fighting if he's that much stronger than anyone.

"How can you become physically as strong as they are without even training to get that?"

Maybe because this is fiction. And people can simply be born strong or with ridiculous power. Or Zen'ō has trained in the past.

Regardless, if you want "likely" to be the stats the fine.

But nothing currently suggests that the guy said to be the strongest, the greatest, that no one is above him or can oppose in anyway can somehow get one shot and blitzed by those who fear his might.

This has been said in other threads by different admins as well. And this seems to be going nowhere like those other times. Unless someone else has something else to say. I'll be closing this and saving staff more trouble.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Doesn't currently fight =\= isn't strong. If anything it'd make sense for him to never fights if he's that much stronger than anyone.
"How can you become physically as strong as they are withou even training to get that?"

Maybe because this is fiction. And people can simply be born strong or with ridiculous power. Or Zen'ō has trained in the past.

Right, but if he trained the who would he train against? By their standards, no one is on his level, thus they wouldnt even dare to fight him period, so it gives him no chance and no reason to fight. You have a point on "Doesn't currently fight =\= isn't strong" but it can also be said the other way. If he's never fought because of his status of being above all else in the verse, then it can also mean he has never gotten any fighting experience, training or practice to gain the physical capabilities of the fighters in the verse. And this is supported by him having guards, otherwise if he had fighting capabilities better than anyone elses he wouldnt need them at all. This leans more towards him not being physically as strong than him starting out as strong as nothing suggests that, while him having guards would suggest it more.

And for the "blitz and one shot" comment, they wouldnt be able to do that to Zeno regardless of whos stronger because Whis, Vados and Zeno's Royal Guard would prevent them from coming anywhere near Zeno.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ryukama. We will not adjust Zen'o's statistics to Unknown. I suggest that you permanently drop this subject.

 

[SomebodyData]

Who he trained against doesn't matter if he did.

There are many characters who have gained incredible without training in fiction and in DBZ (Cell, Frieza)

The reason he doesn't fight is because even GoDs know his power >>>>>>>>>> than their's. If he was simply all talk with no display of capabilities, then Beerus or some other cocky entity would have challenged him a long time ago and won.

Even his guards are scared of him, which suggest that they are not playing the role you think they are.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm okay. Sorry if this was troubling to you. So can this be closed then?

 

[PaChi2]

who said they were his guards? They are more like butlers/servants, since Zeno doesnt need any protection.

 

[Ryukama]

@Anime It's fine. Thanks for understanding. I guess I'll close this now then.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. I will close this then.