Regarding anti-feats

[Dark_Soul20189]

Warning SPOILERS

The Player (Minecraft)

The Player is the protagonist of Minecraft. Known as either Steve or Alex depending on the player's choice, they are a lone miner in an endless blocky world, trying their best to survive. Tier: 9-A physically, up to 7-C with Equipment Name: Steve or Alex Origin: Minecraft Gender: Inapplicable...

vsbattles.fandom.com

With the upcoming "mounts of mayhem" update, it has been confirmed that a new item will be put forward.

This item is a "spear", that comes with an interesting mechanic, which allows the user to charge, but here is the kicker, it's to heavy to use for a long time, and to further put the nail in the coffin, the better the spear, the heavier it is.

Meaning that the current lifting strength, will likely need to go, since we have both in-game feats and direct statements of it, that are hard anti-feats.


So what do we do now?

 

[DavidTPPM]

I was actually going to make a big CRT to remove the current LS anyway but making scans for MC is hard so I procrastinated on it.

Problem is, the game clearly treats items and unplaced blocks as essentially weightless. The player doesn't get heavier when he holds a block or wears armor. And blocks in an item form as so light they can float on water even if there's a trillion of them.


So I think this just confirms what I already wanted to say. Steve should have peak human LS and the whole block holding / armor wearing arguments should be thrown out of the window due to the extreme inconsistencies.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Item weights in games are often misleading and not very solid for anti-feats. Kratos seems hindered by the weight of the Nemean Cestus and even struggles to lift doors and meanwhile he tosses enemies the size of skyscrapers. PIS like that is pretty common outside of games too.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Item weights in games are often misleading and not very solid for anti-feats. Kratos seems hindered by the weight of the Nemean Cestus and even struggles to lift doors and meanwhile he tosses enemies the size of skyscrapers. PIS like that is pretty common outside of games too.

So let me get this straight, we have a direct confirmation that the weight of the spear is an issue, but we have no problems and calling calcs on site accurate?

 

[Random-Helper323]

So let me get this straight, we have a direct confirmation that the weight of the spear is an issue, but we have no problems and calling calcs on site accurate?

It depends on the specific case. It'd need to be more explicit than just game mechanics though, that's for sure. Even if it was treated seriously we'd be left wondering whether the item was heavier than it seemed, whether it had a balance problem or whether it was about stamina and fatigue rather than strength, and of course the obvious fact that gameplay frequently treats weights as a major factor even when the character should be able to lift far heavier things effortlessly.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

It depends on the specific case. It'd need to be more explicit than just game mechanics though, that's for sure.

We have a direct statement from the Minecraft team, on all levels of management, that it is a direct result of its weight, so it's lore and game design, not just mechanics.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah both of these can be argued as game mechanics but the arguments against the current LS are just MUCH stronger and there's a LOT more of them.

Meanwhile the spear is just blatant dev intent

 

[Comiphorous]

Problem is, the game clearly treats items and unplaced blocks as essentially weightless. The player doesn't get heavier when he holds a block or wears armor. And blocks in an item form as so light they can float on water even if there's a trillion of them.

So I think this just confirms what I already wanted to say. Steve should have peak human LS and the whole block holding / armor wearing arguments should be thrown out of the window due to the extreme inconsistencies.

Wouldn't making the item holding/armor wearing arguments null go against the very item that made this argument questionable? Why would specifically the spear have weight when the player is holding it but nothing else does?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Wouldn't making the item holding/armor wearing arguments null go against the very item that made this argument questionable? Why would specifically the spear have weight when the player is holding it but nothing else?

Exacly.
They basically confirm that each material is heavier than the previous one by saying the different spears have different weights, although gold is denser than diamond which destroys their logic anyways. Also your argument basically is others don't have anyweight effect only the spear does so there cames the question why is the spear weight "accurate" to real world logic but nothing else is? Why can't we just say that the spear is magically heavier than a full armour?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Wouldn't making the item holding/armor wearing arguments null go against the very item that made this argument questionable? Why would specifically the spear have weight when the player is holding it but nothing else does?

Tools and blocks are fundamentally different. Blocks significantly vary between held and placed form (anvil is the best example where even a million item form anvils falling 500 blocks won't even scratch you while a single block form anvil falling 50 blocks can kill you). Tools don't have a placed form.


Which means we factually know held blocks don't have the same properties as they normally would if placed. This doesn't affect tools due to their lack of placed form

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Tools and blocks are fundamentally different. Blocks significantly vary between held and placed form (anvil is the best example where even a million item form anvils falling 500 blocks won't even scratch you while a single block form anvil falling 50 blocks can kill you). Tools don't have a placed form.


Which means we factually know held blocks don't have the same properties as they normally would if placed. This doesn't affect tools due to their lack of placed form

Then an Axe which by the recipe should be significantly heavier than a spear would also have bigger drawbacks

 

[DavidTPPM]

Then an Axe which by the recipe should be significantly heavier than a spear would also have bigger drawbacks

Which also tells us the recipe isn't a reliable way to estimate the ass of an object .

Which makes sense given the crafting recipes are kinda silly. Like for example an enchant table is 1/2 of an obsidian block but the recipe uses 4 obsidian blocks.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was actually going to make a big CRT to remove the current LS anyway but making scans for MC is hard so I procrastinated on it.

Problem is, the game clearly treats items and unplaced blocks as essentially weightless. The player doesn't get heavier when he holds a block or wears armor. And blocks in an item form as so light they can float on water even if there's a trillion of them.


So I think this just confirms what I already wanted to say. Steve should have peak human LS and the whole block holding / armor wearing arguments should be thrown out of the window due to the extreme inconsistencies.

Yeah, I'd go with this. The more Minecraft carries on, the more these old arguments boil down to game mechanics. They worked in the past when we had nothing better, but we have a lot of things better now.

Exacly.
They basically confirm that each material is heavier than the previous one by saying the different spears have different weights, although gold is denser than diamond which destroys their logic anyways. Also your argument basically is others don't have anyweight effect only the spear does so there cames the question why is the spear weight "accurate" to real world logic but nothing else is? Why can't we just say that the spear is magically heavier than a full armour?

Gold must not be denser than diamond in Minecraft, seeing as it weighs less. The game's logic isn't entirely consistent with conventional expectations, but the spear thing is a pretty hard-set rule, I reckon. Enough for me to agree that it would be more reliable to use than the silliness we presently employ.

 

[Comiphorous]

Yeah, I'd go with this. The more Minecraft carries on, the more these old arguments boil down to game mechanics. They worked in the past when we had nothing better, but we have a lot of things better now.

Gold must not be denser than diamond in Minecraft, seeing as it weighs less. The game's logic isn't entirely consistent with conventional expectations, but the spear thing is a pretty hard-set rule, I reckon. Enough for me to agree that it would be more reliable to use than the silliness we presently employ.

how exactly do we quantify this feat if the materials are clearly not comparable to their real life counterparts?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

how exactly do we quantify this feat if the materials are clearly not comparable to their real life counterparts?

No, we'd still have to, but we'd have to surrender to the conceits of Minecraft.

I think it is fair to say we'll be working in estimates here, but there are basically two ways to approach this. The first is still calculating using gold's real world density, with iron and diamond in Minecraft having some unknown greater density, since this is all but stated; this interpretation says the densities have been increased. The other interpretation is using the real-world density of diamond, with iron and gold having some unknown lesser density, since again, all but stated; this interpretation says the densities have been decreased.

Any LS calc working for Minecraft now should probably be an "At least, _ possibly _" value, now, given our most solid data point gives us two distinct possibilities. Seems a perfect fit to me.

 

[Comiphorous]

I think it is fair to say we'll be working in estimates here, but there are basically two ways to approach this. The first is still calculating using gold's real world density, with iron and diamond in Minecraft having some unknown greater density, since this is all but stated; this interpretation says the densities have been increased. The other interpretation is using the real-world density of diamond, with iron and gold having some unknown lesser density, since again, all but stated; this interpretation says the densities have been decreased.

I think the best way to do this is to do a calc both ways and use them as a high end and a low end. using gold would give someone a higher number but i have a funny feeling using diamond would give a small enough number that it'd be equally as inconsistent as the current scaling, just in the other direction.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think the best way to do this is to do a calc both ways and use them as a high end and a low end. using gold would give someone a higher number but i have a funny feeling using diamond would give a small enough number that it'd be equally as inconsistent as the current scaling, just in the other direction.

I'd agree with the first part of that, at least- it was more or less what I was suggesting. All calcs using these materials now invariably should have an "at least, possibly" value presented. Neither end seems more "right" from where I sit.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So basically, treat all LS feats as specific hax such as dimensional storage with all the stuff in inventory. And item holding isn't so much LS feat, but just mid process creation/summoning?

 

[Comiphorous]

So basically, treat all LS feats as specific hax such as dimensional storage with all the stuff in inventory. And item holding isn't so much LS feat, but just mid process creation/summoning?

I guess basically;

Blocks/non-tools = weird limbo of no weight but not in dimensional storage when held. weightless unless directly placed down in block form.

Weapons/tools = Weighted items that actually affect Steve when directly held, otherwise weightless dimensional storage shenanigans from above.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Blocks/non-tools = weird limbo of no weight but not in dimensional storage when held. weightless unless directly placed down in block form.

armour also somehow seems to be in this category...

 

[Comiphorous]

armour also somehow seems to be in this category...

yeah i don't know where armor fits into this, i personally believe it's okay to use armor the player is wearing directly as LS proof but people may disagree with me there.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

yeah i don't know where armor fits into this, i personally believe it's okay to use armor the player is wearing directly as LS proof but people may disagree with me there.

I disagree with that, since it would require far more weight than a eqvipment, no matter how we use it, and it appears to have no actual affect on speed and mass.

Eqvipment we at least have coldowns, that could be used as explanations for how often "steve" is capable of swinging it in full force, so LS and Stamina.

 

[Comiphorous]

I disagree with that, since it would require far more weight than a eqvipment, no matter how we use it, and it appears to have no actual affect on speed and mass.

Eqvipment we at least have coldowns, that could be used as explanations for how often "steve" is capable of swinging it in full force, so LS and Stamina.

fair enough then. Armor is just in weird limbo even outside of Steve's inventory. if we don't think about it too hard, we may be able to pretend that's totally normal.

I think just as a baseline, putting it down that Steve's inventory can't be used for scaling is a good start.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

fair enough then. Armor is just in weird limbo even outside of Steve's inventory. if we don't think about it too hard, we may be able to pretend that's totally normal.

We will definitely need to discuss it further in the future.

I think just as a baseline, putting it down that Steve's inventory can't be used for scaling is a good start.

Yep.

 

[IDK3465]

You know what? I actually disagree with this, and it’s for a straightforward reason: Steve ONLY struggles carrying the spear during its charge move. You can still carry around and even stab with the spear (so it isn’t just in some immaterial state, it actually exists) without any difficulty carrying it. The problem only seems to occur when the player is jousting with the thing.

As such, I propose that the issue isn’t purely due to the spear’s weight, but because of the difficulty in keeping it level while running/riding a horse. Hell, we can actually see this in the animation, where the spear starts shifting side to side, indicating that it’ll be less effective in stabbing straight into opponents and knocking them over, you know, like actual irl jousting.

Plus, this mechanic here is 100% for game balancing reasons, as if the spear was able to be in its charge state permanently, it’d be FAR more OP, so this clearly isn’t here for trying to be true to lore, but purely for helping gameplay and making jousting in-game similar to how it is irl.

Of course, it’s still a notable anti-feat, I just think it’s not as large as people like to believe, given just how many factors are involved.

 

[IDK3465]

You know what? I actually disagree with this, and it’s for a straightforward reason: Steve ONLY struggles carrying the spear during its charge move. You can still carry around and even stab with the spear (so it isn’t just in some immaterial state, it actually exists) without any difficulty carrying it. The problem only seems to occur when the player is jousting with the thing.

As such, I propose that the issue isn’t purely due to the spear’s weight, but because of the difficulty in keeping it level while running/riding a horse. Hell, we can actually see this in the animation, where the spear starts shifting side to side, indicating that it’ll be less effective in stabbing straight into opponents and knocking them over, you know, like actual irl jousting.

Plus, this mechanic here is 100% for game balancing reasons, as if the spear was able to be in its charge state permanently, it’d be FAR more OP, so this clearly isn’t here for trying to be true to lore, but purely for helping gameplay and making jousting in-game similar to how it is irl.

Of course, it’s still a notable anti-feat, I just think it’s not as large as people like to believe, given just how many factors are involved.

I should note, however, that I do unfortunately agree that the way the game treats Blocks is just simply way too inconsistent for us to use in calcs reliably. There is just so much weirdness in the fact that canonically, most Blocks float in the air, while others, like Anvils and Sand, don't for no good reason other than Mojang just did it that way.

So yeah, only consider items that we know for sure to have mass when Steve is carrying/wearing them, like the Mace.

I disagree with that, since it would require far more weight than a eqvipment, no matter how we use it, and it appears to have no actual affect on speed and mass.

Eqvipment we at least have coldowns, that could be used as explanations for how often "steve" is capable of swinging it in full force, so LS and Stamina.

(Also, while I know Dark_Soul said they disagree with using it, but Netherite armor can reduce the knockback of attacks, implying it takes a lot more force to move, and thus, still has some degree of mass/weight to it. Most video games tend to just ignore the weight of armor 90% of the time anyway, like, you can have an accessory in a game that's stated to contain a literal galaxy, and yet the player can move with that thing just as fast as they did without it, regardless of whether or not it makes sense.)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

(Also, while I know Dark_Soul said they disagree with using it, but Netherite armor can reduce the knockback of attacks, implying it takes a lot more force to move, and thus, still has some degree of mass/weight to it. Most video games tend to just ignore the weight of armor 90% of the time anyway, like, you can have an accessory in a game that's stated to contain a literal galaxy, and yet the player can move with that thing just as fast as they did without it, regardless of whether or not it makes sense.)

The issue is that ONLY Netherite has it, so it's not a weight thing, but rather just a better dispersion of directional force.

 

[IDK3465]

The issue is that ONLY Netherite has it, so it's not a weight thing, but rather just a better dispersion of directional force.

I know I’m a little late to reply, but there isn’t really much evidence indicating Netherite armor is the only one that has any tangible mass to it when worn… well, outside of the weight of the armor not hindering Steve’s movement, but again, most games don’t tend to take that into account, so it feels like a moot point to me.

Idk, it just feels weird for something that objectively physically exists both visually and mechanically, interacting with other objects and entities to be treated the same as something that exists in a weird pseudo-intangible state where there’s no indication it exists physically when within the player’s hammerspace.

Remember, blocks still do have mass, maybe not weight most of the time, but because of the piston only being able to move a certain amount of blocks, and the heavy core explicitly being stated to be dense even in its block state, we can pretty comfortably say that blocks still absolutely have mass, it’s just when Steve appears to hold them is where things become weird as they, as I already stated, don’t physically exist anymore. However, armor absolutely DOES still physically exist when Steve is wearing it, the fact it can get effected by attacks and stuff should show that, so why are we treating them the same as blocks when they’re much more similar to weapons, which are similarly confirmed to physically exist when held by Steve?

 

[Dalesean027]

What ever happened here, are we still axing the LS?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Is there any arguments for why we shouldn't?
(outside of the OP forgetting about this thread )

 

[Dalesean027]

@Mr. Bambu you still hold the same opinions?

I'd say im still in agreeance with OP as the devs directly verbatim said they based the spears entire mechanic based on weight and it being heavy for the player so its still pretty blatant to the intent so LS should be axed

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

What ever happened here, are we still axing the LS?

The update was not out yet, so I couldn't really do much... (I also forgot about it.)

But yeah, since it's out and nothing seems to have changed compared to the beta, we should be able to procced with this.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Mr. Bambu you still hold the same opinions?

I'd say im still in agreeance with OP as the devs directly verbatim said they based the spears entire mechanic based on weight and it being heavy for the player so its still pretty blatant to the intent so LS should be axed

Yeah, still agree.

 

[IDK3465]

Hold on, before we axe the ratings, we should probably decide on something more concrete to replace them with, and determine whether stuff like armor still counts as having mass. I'd be willing to recalculate the calculations I've done in accordance with what we agree on.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I would love to hear others' thoughts on how we should proceed.... Since the current calcs will be scrapped, it would be good to have at least some form of replacements.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hold on, before we axe the ratings, we should probably decide on something more concrete to replace them with, and determine whether stuff like armor still counts as having mass. I'd be willing to recalculate the calculations I've done in accordance with what we agree on.

I suppose I was waiting to hear an argument from you on this front, presumably as to why armor ought to count. It sort of seemed like you were going to give one.

 

[IDK3465]

I suppose I was waiting to hear an argument from you on this front, presumably as to why armor ought to count. It sort of seemed like you were going to give one.

Well, I already thought I did, but I suppose I can go into a little more detail:

Armor worn by the player is routinely shown to actually physically exist when worn rather than being an immaterial projection of their hammerspace. As I've already mentioned, armor can physically block incoming attacks as well as have a noticeable effect on the knockback the player receives in the case of Netherite, implying that it's able to halt a lot of the momentum and force from attacks. Adding to this, there is a clear distinction between armor that is being held or dropped on the floor as an item and armor that is being worn by an entity. One is visually much smaller, levitates off the ground, and instantly burns in lava/fire (except for Netherite). Compare this to when it's worn, where it appears normal-sized, doesn't seem to move on its own outside of whoever is wearing it, and takes a far more reasonable amount of time to be affected by heat. The way armor works is almost identical to how blocks seem to work when held vs. when placed (smaller, hovering, and are easily affected by heat vs. normal-sized, static, and more realistically affected by heat). To add the cherry on top, blocks are explicitly stated to have mass/density when placed (albeit unaffected by gravity, save for things like sand or anvils). This immunity to gravity's effects could also explain why the player doesn't feel constantly crushed by the weight of the armor they're wearing, only feeling strained by its mass when moving around, partially debunking Dark_Soul's claim that the armor can't have mass.

All in all, I believe there's a lot more in favor of armor having mass than not, but if my argument is not accepted, I'm okay with that. I just want this thread wrapped up and done with as soon as possible so I can revise my old calcs.

 

[Dalesean027]

Isn't it only netherite that actually reduces knockbaxk tho?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Isn't it only netherite that actually reduces knockbaxk tho?

Yeah, already pointed that out. Netherite is the only armour that does that.

 

[Dalesean027]

I'm still iffy on the armor scaling since its got its own slew of problems as well and still contradicts the LS in place but maybe the mace is fine for LS you could calculate the LS there but idk how you'd go about that


The netherite armor is the only one I'd be fine with as a possibly rating at most otherwise I'd say none of it works