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Regarding 'A Call Beyond'

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A Bloodborne nitpick of mine that has bothered me for some time now. I want to point out some issues with the current tier rating for the Hunter based on his use of A Call Beyond. While I am aware that a calculation has been done on the move, I feel that the use of this calculation is in error, since the calculation itself centers around the power output of full-sized stars like our Sun as opposed to the extremely miniaturized star used by the Hunter in-game.

Now, on that note, scientists have been considering the possibility of creating a miniature Sun roughly 3.5 kilometers in diameter as a means of sustainable energy. At this reduced size, the energy output of the Sun is likewise reduced drastically, going down from the Sun's 1.2×1034 J per year to just 2.4×1020 J, which is Island level power, generated over the course of a year. Now, the star used by the Hunter is far smaller than even this reduced Sun (on the order of 30,000x), so its overall power output should be significantly less than that.

However, there's more to this power seep than just a smaller size.

A call beyond
From the animation, we can clearly see that the star explodes almost as soon as it's created, with most of the energy dissipating harmlessly around the Hunter while the remaining energy then coalesces into spherical arcane projectiles. It is these projectiles, not the star itself, that impact the target. The Hunter fires off approximately 21 of said projectiles, by the way. However, as I do not currently have a gauge as to how much energy such a tiny, short-lived star would generate, I don't know how much destruction its fragments would cause and so I can't place a tier on it. If anyone could potentially calculate this, then that would be greatly appreciated.

Another reason I take issue with rating the Hunter as Star level, let alone the Large Star level he's currently at, is because I feel that this disregards the in-game description of A Call Beyond,

Create small star explosion.
One of the secret rites of the Choir.

Long ago, the Healing Church used phantasms to reach a lofty plane of darkness, but failed to make contact with the outer reaches of the cosmos.

The rite failed to achieve its intended purpose, but instead created a small exploding star, now a powerful part of the Choir's arsenal.

At times, failure is the mother of invention.
^The star is clearly meant to be small, so even if the calc was to remain in its current use, then we should use the low-end estimate due to the size of the star. However, that is neither here nor there, as the calc should really not be used to begin with as it undercuts what we see in-game.

Pseudo-rant over. Let me know your thoughts. :)
 
Let's be real, the size of the attack has nothing to do with anything. If it were actually portraying a star exploding, the entire setting would be nil. It's a pretty bad argument.

Also, the Japanese translation says it's a "small explosion of a star", not "the explosion of a small star". Two very different things.

That and the visual of the attack appears to show us a brief window into space where we can see some kind of nova off in the distance of that breech in space.

So take that as you will.
 
If that is the case and it's not actually portraying a star exploding, then what are we really seeing here? How does attack size not play a part in this?

Which makes me wonder how Large Star level is even remotely justifiable.

The Everlasting said:
That and the visual of the attack appears to show us a brief window into space where we can see some kind of nova off in the distance of that breech in space.
All I see is a white flash from the attack starting up, followed by that brief window. Not seeing a nova unless the flash and the nova you mentioned are the same thing?
 
The attack is, from what I remember, basically making a star explode within the cosmos and summoning its remains to use as an attack. As A Call Beyond's Japanese description says, the Church Choir tried making contact with the Great Ones of the cosmos in a distant star-world, but ended up destroying said star-world and creating the explosion.

Formerly, the Healing Church used spirits as intermediaries to contact a higher dimension of darkness,

They attempted to send communications to a distant star-world. However, it all ended in futility.

In other words, this was a failed work, but the rite was accompanied by a small explosion of a star.

This became a special power of the Choir. In truth, failure is the mother of success.


Umm, it's saying that it's an explosion of a star, but the explosion is small, not that it's the explosion of a small star. I think you missed the point of what I said.

You need to look very, very closely, but it's there.

Regardless, I'd much rather if someone contacted ChaosTheory on NF and asked him this stuff, he's more well-versed in Bloodborne than I am.
 
I know nothing about the game itself but i'll have to agree with the post.

Since it seems there is some unceartenty regarding the translation it would be better to ask someone to translate it.

If we accept the translation of the bloodborne wiki (small exploding star) then the feat will be judged by its in-game appearance.

If the other translation turns out to be the right one then well have to take something more fitting to real life descriptions of a small explosion of a star.(most likely a solar flaire) and not a supernove.
 
@Gwyn

It was already translated by a guy over at NF named ThanatoSeraph.

Also, the calc wasn't using a supernova, it was just using a star explosion (You know, like a star bust). Just clearing that up.

Like I said, I'd prefer if someone contacted ChaosTheory over at NF for this.
 
Well there isn't anything in real life like a small star being destroyed by an explosion caused by itself so it's safe to assume that the description is about an explosion that is happening on a small star.Which would a nova or a solar flaire.

The calc just uses 3 values.The GBE of the Earth, the GBE of the Sun and a supernova.I'm pretty sure the GBE of the Sun is the base on which Star level was created so the fact that the profiles are High 4-C means that we accepted the supernova which is by no means an explosion of a small star.
 
I've mentioned this before, but it's not the explosion of a small star, it's a small explosion of a star. And who said the explosions are caused by itself? It's the actual rite of A Call Beyond doing it.

No, High 4-C comes from how Great Ones >>>>>> A Call Beyond users.
 
How on earth do we quantify that?

Umm, it's saying that it's an explosion of a star, but the explosion is small, not that it's the explosion of a small star. I think you missed the point of what I said.

You need to look very, very closely, but it's there.
Thanks for reiterating. Makes more sense and seems to fall in line with what Gwynbleiddd suggested it might be, a solar flare. As to the clip, unless that glowy white light in the Hunter's hands that seems to be fading near the end of the attack is the nova, then I'm not seeing it. :/
 
I reiterate this point, but I'd much prefer if someone asks ChaosTheory on NF about this stuff. I'm low on energy now and can't really debate (That and the note on my user page on how frustrated it gets me).

But super off-topic but I realize one could use the Japanese ACB description to say Great Ones are High 3-A by coming from a higher dimension (Not saying they are, just a funny tidbit).
 
Seems like a bad idea to me to rank that small thing as anywhere near Star level.If it had harmed someone with that durability then yes its AoE wouldn't count but since we have a very vague statement and a very poor showing we can't just dismiss everything and go by the interpretation that yields the highest results.

I think that treating the small orb on his palms as the star in question would be a much better approach.

I may calc it if i find some time but now i'm going to sleep, goodnight.
 
The Hunter isn't High 4-C based off of the calc of A Call Beyond, he's High 4-C because he's superior to the Moon Presence, who is far superior to Ebrietas, who utilizes an immensely more powerful version of ACB Casually in combat. ACB was accepted as 4-C with the calc
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The Hunter isn't High 4-C based off of the calc of A Call Beyond, he's High 4-C because he's superior to the Moon Presence, who is far superior to Ebrietas, who utilizes an immensely more powerful version of ACB Casually in combat. ACB was accepted as 4-C with the calc
Shouldn't Ebrietas be high-end 4-C instead of High 4-C, then? You're saying that the Hunter > MP > Ebrietas, however Ebrietas' profile says her version of ACB is more powerful than the Hunter's.

For that matter, how is the Hunter superior to either of those two when they are just as capable of killing him off as he is them?
 
Not really considering the other characters ho use ACB (Micolash, Yurie, Iosefka and the Forgotten Madman) are ridiculously weak in comparison and considering the gap between the high-end and low-end of star level is barely 2x it would make sense. And yes, the Hunter uses a weaker version of A Call Beyond than Ebrietas'.

I think you meant to just ask about the MP. The canon ending of the game has the Hunter kill the Moon Presence, who is much stronger than any other Great One besides Oedon. The MP is much stronger than Ebrietas to the point where the Hunter can only defeat it by consuming a certain item which basically turns you into a pseudo-Great One, before fighting it, and if you dont you get a non-canon end where the MP casually overpowers you. ie. EoG Hunter canonically kills the Moon Presence, who is far stronger than Ebrietas.

The whole topic regarding their scaling was discussed here, brought up by Azzy and agreed upon by Ant.
 
Ah, okay.

WeeklyBattles said:
I think you meant to just ask about the MP. The canon ending of the game has the Hunter kill the Moon Presence, who is much stronger than any other Great One besides Oedon. The MP is much stronger than Ebrietas to the point where the Hunter can only defeat it by consuming a certain item which basically turns you into a pseudo-Great One, before fighting it, and if you dont you get a non-canon end where the MP casually overpowers you. ie. EoG Hunter canonically kills the Moon Presence, who is far stronger than Ebrietas.

The whole topic regarding their scaling was discussed here, brought up by Azzy and agreed upon by Ant.
I actually hadn't considered the three One Third Umbilical Cords in that capacity before. It makes sense that he'd need a power boost.

Now that that's out of the way, there is still the rest of my original post about where exactly A Call Beyond stands in regards to tiering. I would still like to know how the size of the star in use by the Hunter does not affect its tier, and the question of which context of the translation of the item description we should go by.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The Hunter isn't High 4-C based off of the calc of A Call Beyond, he's High 4-C because he's superior to the Moon Presence, who is far superior to Ebrietas, who utilizes an immensely more powerful version of ACB Casually in combat. ACB was accepted as 4-C with the calc
But Bloodborne being in stellar territories of power all falls back on A Call Beyond, does it not? Yes, The Hunter scales off of several of the Great Ones, but the Great Ones are also only that high because they scale off of A Call Beyond.

The thing is, I don't understand why A Call Beyond is assumed to harness every bit of the exploding star's energy. It's true that it causes a star to explode, and I do think that what we visually see is a rift in space showing the cosmos. But I'm sceptical that every bit of energy from the exploding star, actually goes into the attack. I always felt like it's a very small fraction of the explosing that's being converted into a projectile.

I also don't understand why the power of the verse is so dualistic. Like all there is is Tier 8 characters and Tier 4 characters, and nothing in between. Like why is The One Reborn only building level, even though you fight it after you fight Rom, who is star level? Are we expected to believe that The Hunter, in canon, one-shotted The One Reborn and that it was never even remotely a threat?
 
MeleeniumRXJ has some valid points. On some of the profiles it seems to me like we're just cherry-picking who's Star level or above and who's not. Take Laurence for example. He's one of the toughest end game bosses from the dlc and yet is Building level whereas Lady Maria is Large Star level despite displaying nothing that would put her in that category. Any reasons for her being at that level could easily be applied to Laurence as well.
 
TBH, even if the spell was intended to be a star exploding, which I disagree with for the reasons given above, it seems like an outlier for the verse. It's pretty silly to have the verse characters go from 8-C to 4-C of a single description of a spell. I mean, from what I see regular enemy hunters are either 8-C or 4-C depending if they know the spell or not. One would think they should be somewhat comparable in terms of strength. Micolash, who is a coward boss that runs from you is 4-C because he uses A Call Beyond.
 
The item shows (pretty clearly tbh) a portal opening up to show a star in space, which promptly explodes. The AP rating doesn't necessarily come from the star bits, but likely from the fact the user is performing the ritual under their own power
 
This is an old thread. Perhaps I should close it?
 
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