Recent 3-A upgrades to DBS characters

[RoyGundam]

I believe this has come up several times already, but the recent upgrades (to 3-A) to some characters is rather arbitrary and inconsistent in my opinion. I'm specifically talking about Frost, Cabba, Basil and Lavender.

This is basically what I have to say about it :


Goku fights randos in ToP (specifically Basil) -> Randos are 3-A

Krillin has beam struggle with Goku in Blue -> PIS, Krillin is not 3-A

Goku goes Blue to beat evil Roshi -> PIS, Roshi is not 3-A

Krillin is able to physically contend with and even beat several randos in ToP plus Goku and Gohan are confident that he could throw down with Trio de Dangers even though he'd lose -> Krillin still not 3-A

Buu beat Basil comprehensively (even after he'd doped up) -> Buu still not 3-A

Roshi beat Ganos, is able to physically contend with Frost (who is 3-A) and even trapped him using Mafuba -> Roshi still not 3-A

P.S. Ganos is stronger than Roshi, who is able to trade blows with Frost (who is 3-A) -> Ganos is not 3-A

The position you guys have taken with the scaling is not consistent with the feats. There are two choices really, either assume that neither Goku nor Vegeta are holding back and give 3-A rating to everyone who have fought them even in Base, OR only give 3-A to the strongest characters - Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Android 17, Hit, Kale, Toppo, Jiren and Dyspo (so far, this is not an exhaustive list considering the series is still ongoing)

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

You realize this has been discussed extensively? Trust me, every character you mentioned was discussed for their placement, we didn't arbitrarily slap tiers on them.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

There needs to be a discussion rule to stop thses kinds of threads, this is getting ridiculous...

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Also Frost was explicitly holding back, he said so himself, and Mafuba is hax.

And Roshi was still getting beat around by Frost.

 

[RoyGundam]

There is a huge difference between 3-A and 4-B or High 4-C, The fact that Roshi doesn't instantly disintegrate from Frost's attacks - even held back - should mean they are in the same ballpark. At any rate, I am not even saying you should downgrade those characters, just maintain some semblance of consistency by upgrading Roshi, Krillin, Android 18 and Buu

 

[RoyGundam]

It seems inherently unfair to Earth characters that all of their combat interactions with Goku are treated as PIS

 

[RoyGundam]

And by the way, if there are many questions about the Tier upgrades, there is a possibility that the tier upgrades were poorly done.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Its mostly because people dont read the threads the uogrades were done in.

And ki control dude, Hit, jiren, Goku, Frieza could solo and straight up kill 99% of the tourney if they went all out, regardless of power, theyre holding back, because they say they are, they get erased if they kill so they gotta hold back.

If Frost wanted he most certainly could splatter Roshi.

And remember, they can lower their power to barely superhuman up to universal and anywhere in between.

Only person i could see getting upgraded is Piccolo.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Nevermind, Piccolo is already 3-A.

 

[Antvasima]

You can politely ask Matthew to comment here if you wish.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Most of what Roy said was either PIS or something similar. I have had this discussion quite a few times. This needs to be a discussion rule


Basil is 3-A because of his consistency with fighting others like that. Buu has been laying around and playing since Buu arc, and even training at the last minute wouldn't make him 3-A.

It was explicitly stated That Frost was holding back against Roshi... Twice.

Not everyone in ToP is automatically 3-A.

Evil Roshi is inconsistent with what happened in ToP .

One could say Nariama was a team effort..

Someone made a complaint towards Kale : Kale was drawing attention to the most powerful of the tournament, including Jiren honestly. It was her power that made Jiren oneshot her. In comparison , the only one who did that to Jiren was Goku [ Who is going to use SSBKKX20 Spirit Bomb ... So being powerful enough to entice Jiren like that is impressive enough ] currently in the newest episode. It isn't a stretch to say Berserk Kale was the third strongest inthe ToP so far . Even Vegeta was scared of her power .... He was never scared by someones power... when he had SSB in his arsenal since The Goku Black Arc.

Buu has been extensively looked at... So have the earthlings... And everyone else...

You say the tier upgrades are poorly done. No... Just like all the downgrade threads, this one was done very poorly .

 

[Dark649]

Blog Here. The Trio of Danger final attack was keeping up with the SSB beams for a few moments, Basil and Magetta clashed with Toppo, Cabba oneshoted two fighters and fought a serious Vegeta, Caulifla fought a serious Goku, Kale required Jiren to act, Frost oneshotted Roshi and fought Piccolo, who destroyed a 3-A barrier. Gohan fought seriously with Goku and sparred with Frieza and etc. Roshi, Tien, Krillin, Buu and 18 will stay in their tiers since it's more consistent for them.

 

[Dark649]

Most of what Roy said was either PIS or something similar. I have had this discussion quite a few times. This needs to be a discussion rule.

I added it along with the Buu thing.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

>training at the last minute isny enough to get to 3-A

It honestly is, it's happened already, I can see buu of all people doing that but besides that I agree. (And buu in his fights didnt train prior, he only trained after)

 

[Antvasima]

@Dark649

I think that it seems better to add a separate discussion rule for this, rather than cram it into an already existing one:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Discussion_Rules&diff=1640097&oldid=1626944

Perhaps Matthew can write a draft that I can then modify?

 

[PaChi2]

Why does everyone care so much about the dbs scaling when it is almost nonexistent in the show?

These threads are just beating a dead horse. A buried one at that.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Because Dragon Ball is a massively popular show and one of the most popular vs debating topics ever?

That's why.

Its understandable, bothersome yeah, but understandable.

 

[PaChi2]

The point was that the scaling is nonexistent so arguing over it is almost pointless.

The rest is obvious. It was a retorical question, btw.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Scaling exists, some of it is pretty cut and dry. It's just no name characters and fodder that is inconsistent l, as far as high tier goes its solid.

 

[PaChi2]

Zeno> Grand Priest > Angels > Maybe Jiren > GoDs > current SSBx10 Goku > ?????

The rest becomes loose.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Frieza, Goku, Hit, Dyspo, Toppo, Kale are all pretty solid, id say Vegeta but we know he trained in the time chamber and havent seen him go out since prior to that.

 

[PaChi2]

I'd cut Dyspo from there.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Some people in the ToP via Jiren and Toppo [ Goku stated he needed to reach his limit to match Toppo's full power , AKA at the time was KKX10 ] may scale beyond KKX10-KKX20 . Kale could be one, only because of the power she had forced Jiren to act, as opposed to challenging Jiren all the time ( [ Ahem Goku ] ) . I could see her between those two versions of Kaioken by now ... Now that I look at what both Toppo said ( Toppo was surprised and shocked of her power, something SSBKK and SSB failed to do when Goku fought Toppo ) and what Jiren did.Then an even much stronger Toppo ( the trio [ Dypso , Commander , Toppo ] was training for the tournament along with their duties ) said she was really strong and was shocked at her power... Kinda like how Hit became much stronger off screen.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Nah we know where he stands, he's about as strong as Hit pre adaption in stats. Considering he can harm him and apparently hit him with lethal strikes.

So above KK10x Goku in U6 saga.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Pretty much what @J-Man stated.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is super tiresome at this point.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hello Matthew. I am both happy to see you here... and feel sad for you to be here [ Because of you almost always being called here for these type of threads ] . Anywyas ...Do you agree with my points [ Especially about Kale.. That can be considered "petty", but i want to make a acurate tier list sometime in the future concerning other incarnations { GT , Super , Movies , Xenoverse , Fusions , Heroes , etc. } , and i want to make sure my reasonings are as accurate as possible. I even want to make "hypothetical" incarnations of characters , such as an hypothetical XV ToP Kale , because the XV2 Post-Story actually ties in with Super's Story , the scaling is weird... But it is feasible ] ? Also, sorry to interrupt you, but as Ant said, this needs to be a discusion rule .

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

It already is, Dark added it to the rules.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Ant wants Matt to re-do it...Neater.

 

[PaChi2]

This is super tiresome at this point.

Pun intended?

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Can you write a draft for a discussion rule that forbids these types of discussions?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I want to, but I'm occupied today.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. You are probably best informed regarding what the rule should say, so I would appreciate if you do it when you find the time though.

 

[Ryukama]

There is a huge difference between 3-A and 4-B or High 4-C, The fact that Roshi doesn't instantly disintegrate from Frost's attacks - even held back - should mean they are in the same ballpark.

I guess Bulma is in the same ballpark as Beerus and Hercule in the same ballpark as Cell.

I'm tired of this argument. DB characters have been able to restrain their power by orders of magnitude since forever. If someone is explicitly holding back a lot you can't powerscale them.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Eventually, threads like these are gonna require to show evidence or it might get ban-worthy.

 

[Antvasima]

Since Matthew is busy, is anybody else willing to write a draft for a discussion rule for this? Then I can check over and make adjustments to the flow of the text.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Please do not create new discussion threads complaining about the Dragon Ball Super characters being upgraded to 3-A based on Base Goku's revision, as the topic has been discussed to exhaustion at this point and every thread tends to be a repeat of the last one. The characters who became Universal have demonstrated legitimate scaling to be upgraded, while the characters who didn't have not. Failure to adhere to this rule will result in the thread being locked."

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine. Feel free to add it after the other Discussion Rules related to Dragon Ball.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Done.

 

[RoyGundam]

I still think that either Buu's Tier is in egregious fault or both Basil and Lavender should be downgraded